Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Lions Of Punjab]

State-of-art New battle tanks to replace India’s ageing T-72 MBT

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/story/93913.html

The Army is planning to replace its existing fleet of Soviet-origin main battle tanks, which have been in service since the mid-80s, with a family of modular armoured-fighting vehicles that would be developed in collaboration with the industry.
“The Indian Army is planning to design and develop a new generation, state-of-the-art combat vehicle platform for populating its armoured fighting vehicle fleet in the coming decade. This vehicle, which will be called the future ready combat vehicle (FRCV), will form the base platform for the main battle tank which is planned to replace the existing T-72 tanks in the Armoured Corps,” a request for information (RFI) of the Army stated.

The army envisions to begin inducting the new platforms by 2025-27. It is also planned to subsequently develop other need-based variants like bridge-layers, anti-mine trawlers, command posts, armoured ambulances, engineer vehicles, self-propelled gun platforms and recovery vehicles on this platform.

The Army looking towards developing a new family of armoured vehicles also indicates that the main battle tank, Arjun, developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) does not meet its future requirements, even though orders have been placed to equip some regiments it. The Army and the DRDO have been at loggerheads about the performance and capability of the Arjun.

At present the T-72 and the T-90, both procured from Russia and assembled in India, are the mainstay of the Indian Armoured Corps. The T-72 has undergone several upgrades to enhance their capability. The T-90 began entering service in the last decades.

The RFI also states that a ‘future’ combat platform design must cater to ‘future’ battlefield environment and technological possibilities. To address the future scenario and the envisaged force profile, the FRCV, which would be in the “medium tank” category, needs to be developed on a modular concept with a high degree of flexibility in a manner that, as a tank platform, it can address the varying requirements of different terrain and weather configurations. At the same time it can provide the base on which a ‘family of vehicles’, catering to the operational needs of various arms of the Army.

The new tank’s firepower should be well matched to contemporary tanks in engagement ranges, all weather day/night fighting capability, depth of penetration and variety of ammunition. It should have very high all-round protection.




So FMBT is now running with another name (FRCV) .

 

[ersakthivel]

Take a look at these requirements of future FMBT or FICV from IA!!!!.

"
alient features of FRCV asked for in tender documents are

Dimensions: Army wants FRCV to be in ” Medium Tank ” Category. Which will allow the new platform to be used on existing infrastructure and terrain of Indian western border and will be easy to transport.

Crew: The number of crew members should be such that they can perform their designated tasks, and operate all onboard systems without hindrance and without any overlapping of duties/ responsibilities.

Fire Power: Should be well matched to contemporary MBTs in engagement ranges, all-weather day/night fighting capability, depth of penetration and variety of ammunition. Should have very high accuracy [High FRHP (First Round Hit Probability)] and very high lethality [High SSKP (Single Shot Kill Probability)], at par with contemporary MBTs.

Protection: Should provide very high all-around protection, including ballistic, active and any other form of anti-armor technologies, to ensure survivability in the contemporary and future battlefield.
Should incorporate signature reduction technologies.
High response evasion/ anti-detection system.

Mobility: Should have an adequately high power-to-weight ratio to enable all onboard systems to be run simultaneously, without disrupting the agility and mobility of the vehicle. Should have high operating range, comparable to contemporary MBTs.
"

They cant specify the number of crew, weight , gun diameter, or anything in particular,

but DRDO or any other developmental agency requires all these facts to design the tank!!!

This it seems to be done on purpose, because they can reverse these requirements any day to reject any tank, much the same like the scandalous MMRCA which wobbled along and died a natural death!!!

Such obfuscated requirements mean only a fully developed foreign tank will be imported , because local developer CVRDE has to be given all those specs to finalize the design and avoid the acrimony later of the design being not in conformity with the users requirement!!

If a 3 men crew 50 ton tank is offered IA can refuse it saying that it has overlapping crew functions and lesser armor protection.

if a four men crew 60 ton plus tank is offered, they can refuse it by saying that it is not a medium tank and , they can cite another 50 ton tank in international market to conveniently say that it has non overlapping crew functions and suits terrain operation and lesser weight condition!!!

SO it means only one thing IA has no concrete ideas about what it exactly wants from its FMBT!!!

Time manohar parrikar uses some creative thinking like the last time it was used in DRDO head's job.

It only reinforces the long held view that IA's FMBT program is designed from inception to be vague and can be interpreted in future in any way to reject a local product and go in for thousands of tank imports from abroad , to retain the tag of the largest importer of tanks forever!!!

So NSA like structure consisting of technically knowledgeable guys drawn from defence forces and scientific community to be headed by SA to DM is needed to define the specs of future combat platforms of IA, IAF and IN.

It is time old retiring very senior defence personnel (whose forte is combat operations and not technical expertise) to be relieved of this onerous responsibility of crystal gazing into the future defence tech platforms,

Will Modi govt oblige?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This is what Vina said in BR >>

The Army plans for FICRV or whatever that moniker , is sorry to say, sucks dead rats.

1. The have made the process into three parts.
a. A "design" phase, where they call for a design competition and pick and choose a winning design against a "reward" for a winner. Why would anyone spend time and money on this is moot, without even covering fixed costs, but the Army thinks that there are enough suckers out there to come to such a contest

b. Once the "Design" contest is over, then there will be a development agency that does the prototype development and limited series production.

c. Finally a "nominated" production agency will do the final series production

All very soviet style with "Design Agency" , development agency and production agency. Frankly idiotic and unworkable anywhere outside a totalitarian set up.

For eg, what will b . do and why ? And finally what if there are design issues during production. The "production agency" will have no clue of what to do about it. The design guys have already pocketed their winnings "prize" and gone for good!

The only positive I can think of is the DGMF/ Army guys thinking they are supermen and then going to design a tank themselves, sort of like a mountain going in to labor and delivering a mouse, like Huffy and Tuffy.

=====================

The order of +300 T-90MS is probably thrashed so these people are making such programs as passive signal for imports ..

Just like IAF`s MMRCA and BTA programs, This FICRV is heading towards the same fate and the winner is pre selected is Russian of-course ..

Take a look at these requirements of future FMBT or FICV from IA!!!!.

Time manohar parrikar uses some creative thinking like the last time it was used in DRDO head's job.

 

[ersakthivel]

This is what Vina said in BR >>



=====================

The order of +300 T-90MS is probably thrashed so these people are making such programs as passive signal for imports ..

Just like IAF`s MMRCA and BTA programs, This FICRV is heading towards the same fate and the winner is pre selected is Russian of-course ..

In this respect Parrikar requires the advice of SA to DM before setting into operation the FICV program with such useless and vague set of specs!!!

For me it looks exactly like a case for importing all the Armata combat platforms with out explicitly saying so. No wonder they waited for Armata's debut before releasing this FICV specs!!!

The word medium weight is dead giveaway!!!

What if tomorrow chinese manage to develop a 60 yon plus heavy MBT superior in each respect to Russian Armata and give them away to Pakistan at friendship prices?

Most of thes generals who formed this absurd spec would have long retired and we will be shopping for a heavy western tank from Germany as well!!!

Medium weight and heavy protection with highest gun capacity never go hand in hand. Even crew members are not specified!!!

Doesn't the IA know how many crew members it will need in FMBT from the long history of operations in indian desert conditions?

Why such a monstrous absurdity of an FMBT or FICV specs is thrust down the throat of this nation?

If the IA doesn't know exactly what it wants, it can honestly say it and ask for expert scientific help in this matter before deciding on such vague specs!!!

Unbelievable , that it is happening in a free democratic country teeming with millions of Engineers!!!

With our national mainstream media hung up on the coat tails of every politician's useless quotes for 24x7 TRP survival race, such monumental scandal of FICV specs will sail through with ease!!!

Imagin if IN has floated a global tender for Arihant class N subs (assume they are freely available on the market) with specs on these exact lines,,,

It will read like,

We need a N Sub with
1.highest range ballistic missile ,
2.tipped with highest megaton yield (most in number MIRVed),
3.with medium weight category,
4. with the highest speeds and stealth at the same time at an affordable cost

INS Arihant would never have seen the light of the day!!!

The guys who framed this "futuristic scandalous FMBT specs" should have graduated from world renowned "AXACT university " from Pakistan with distinction perhaps!!!

 

[jouni]

Both Arjun and T90 unfortunately csnnot match Leo 2A6, which can take T90 out from a distance of 6km....even further and faster than T90s tank fired missiles... Curvature of earth is working against those.

 

[ersakthivel]

Both Arjun and T90 unfortunately csnnot match Leo 2A6, which can take T90 out from a distance of 6km....even further and faster than T90s tank fired missiles... Curvature of earth is working against those.

Well I am tired of arguing with true blue experts like you, please excuse!!!!

 

[sob]

Both Arjun and T90 unfortunately csnnot match Leo 2A6, which can take T90 out from a distance of 6km....even further and faster than T90s tank fired missiles... Curvature of earth is working against those.

Well sir you can keep on the dick measuring contest from your side.

would appreciate some qualitative posts from your side.

 

[jouni]

Well sir you can keep on the dick measuring contest from your side.

would appreciate some qualitative posts from your side.

In Finnish forums it was written that Leo2 have been designed to take out Russian tanks out of their reach. What is wrong with that? In Finland we use "weapon and warfare systems" for example our Leo´s are never alone, but with CV9030 and panzer jaegers. Also we have the best AA in the nordic countries with Groundmaster radars, STingers, NASAMS and F-18´s with latest MLU1&2 upgrade which puts its capabilities way above Russian fighters, which means that Russian airplanes and helicopters cannot get to support their tanks and without that T90 against Leo2A6 is a suicide.

Nothing against Russians, but I saw a photo where SU-27 pilots had put a homemade wooden rack with commercial GPS on it to their planes "dashboard". That tells a lot about the level Russian Air Force is today. Decay after SU is everywhere to be seen. They have top stuff but in small numbers only and also that have not been tested against latest western stuff.

You cannot compare tank by tank, you must take all systems to comparison and then see what the end result is. Some of our Air Force guys even said unofficially that if Russia attacked today, we would knock all their planes down without the loss of a one single Hornet.

Sorry for bringing Hornets to this, but in the battlefield they all are linked. And most importantly, when you have the system ready, it works as a threshold for possible attacked so that they never will be needed.

 

[ersakthivel]

In Finnish forums it was written that Leo2 have been designed to take out Russian tanks out of their reach. What is wrong with that? In Finland we use "weapon and warfare systems" for example our Leo´s are never alone, but with CV9030 and panzer jaegers. Also we have the best AA in the nordic countries with Groundmaster radars, STingers, NASAMS and F-18´s with latest MLU1&2 upgrade which puts its capabilities way above Russian fighters, which means that Russian airplanes and helicopters cannot get to support their tanks and without that T90 against Leo2A6 is a suicide.

Nothing against Russians, but I saw a photo where SU-27 pilots had put a homemade wooden rack with commercial GPS on it to their planes "dashboard". That tells a lot about the level Russian Air Force is today. Decay after SU is everywhere to be seen. They have top stuff but in small numbers only and also that have not been tested against latest western stuff.

You cannot compare tank by tank, you must take all systems to comparison and then see what the end result is. Some of our Air Force guys even said unofficially that if Russia attacked today, we would knock all their planes down without the loss of a one single Hornet.

Sorry for bringing Hornets to this, but in the battlefield they all are linked. And most importantly, when you have the system ready, it works as a threshold for possible attacked so that they never will be needed.

Indian defence force's SU-30 MKI have no wooden rack GPS. In fact even Russian airforce was impressed by them so much that they ordered 64 sets of SU-30 MKI mission computers for their Su-30 SM , weapon release softwares and some other avionics stuff from HAL india. Also HAL won the contract to mate the supersonic Brahmos with Su-30 MKI, Next Su-30 MKIS are going to sport OBORGs developed for tejas mk1. Also ASEA radars and israeli EW suits for Su-30 MKI are on the cards.

In the same way Commander's panaromic sight, armor tech and gun barrel tech developed for Arjun were ported on to IA t-90s as well. And French electronics were installed on T-90s.

SO it is not as simple as that. Only muzzle velocity determines which tank has higher range, nothing else.

 

[jouni]

Yes Muzzle velocity...but first you must get somebody on the sights. I have not studied your tank battles so I do not know how successful the chain that leads to that point have been in India

 

[jouni]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chawinda

Now I understand your willingness to improve your tanking skills. History is a good teacher and wise man makes not the same mistake twice.

Remember to develop your tank doctrine as a whole and also in combination with other branches.

 

[Rowdy]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chawinda

Now I understand your willingness to improve your tanking skills. History is a good teacher and wise man makes not the same mistake twice.

Remember to develop your tank doctrine as a whole and also in combination with other branches.

Yup.
The new defence minister is a proper technocrat. Lots of hopes riding on him.

 

[pmaitra]

In Finnish forums it was written that Leo2 have been designed to take out Russian tanks out of their reach. What is wrong with that? In Finland we use "weapon and warfare systems" for example our Leo´s are never alone, but with CV9030 and panzer jaegers. Also we have the best AA in the nordic countries with Groundmaster radars, STingers, NASAMS and F-18´s with latest MLU1&2 upgrade which puts its capabilities way above Russian fighters, which means that Russian airplanes and helicopters cannot get to support their tanks and without that T90 against Leo2A6 is a suicide.

Nothing against Russians, but I saw a photo where SU-27 pilots had put a homemade wooden rack with commercial GPS on it to their planes "dashboard". That tells a lot about the level Russian Air Force is today. Decay after SU is everywhere to be seen. They have top stuff but in small numbers only and also that have not been tested against latest western stuff.

You cannot compare tank by tank, you must take all systems to comparison and then see what the end result is. Some of our Air Force guys even said unofficially that if Russia attacked today, we would knock all their planes down without the loss of a one single Hornet.

Sorry for bringing Hornets to this, but in the battlefield they all are linked. And most importantly, when you have the system ready, it works as a threshold for possible attacked so that they never will be needed.

Was that picture taken in Finland?

I know you guys use the Russian broad gauge (a couple of millimetres difference doesn't matter).

What is the loading gauge in Finland?

We have similar wagons in India for carrying tanks, including the larger Arjun.

 

[manindra]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chawinda

Now I understand your willingness to improve your tanking skills. History is a good teacher and wise man makes not the same mistake twice.

Remember to develop your tank doctrine as a whole and also in combination with other branches.

You didn't look on this Sir :biggrin2:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Asal_Uttar

 

[jouni]

Was that picture taken in Finland?

I know you guys use the Russian broad gauge (a couple of millimetres difference doesn't matter).

What is the loading gauge in Finland?

We have similar wagons in India for carrying tanks, including the larger Arjun.

Load gauge is the same as in Russia. That video is from Finland, Panzer brigade arrived to exercise by train.

 

[akshay m]

@ersakthivel ji , this may amuse you :biggrin2:


our dear friend prasun sen gupta wrote on September 2, 2011

To [email protected]: They’re not meant to complement each other in the same theatre, rather, they would be used in much the same way as the Soviets used a combination of T-64Bs/T-80s and T-72Ms during the Cold War era. In other words, the first shots to be fired by the Indian Army’s breakout forces will come from the Arjuns, with the T-90s being the follow-on elements for achieving the encirclement and envelopment objectives. My preferred between the two? The Arjun, of course. Why? That’s simple. On the battlefield it is almost impossible to distinguish (using thermal imaging or infra-red sights) between the silhouettes of the Indian Army’s T-72s and T-90s and the Pakistan Army’s Al Khalids, Al Zarrars, Type 85APs and T-80UDs. Therefore, the only way to avoid casualties caused by friendly fire is the employment of MBTs with distinguishable silhouettes by either side, especially in the initial hours of war breaking out. The Arjun’s silhouette (derived from thermal imagery) has distinct differences when compared to those of the T-90, T-72, Al Khalid, Al Zarrar, Type 85AP and T-80UD, a factor which will be critical for the hunter-killer fire-control systems employed by the Arjuns to seek out and destroy the enemy’s armoured formations in detail. In addition, crew comfort on board the Arjun will be of a higher degree when compared to the T-90S and T-90S+. Thirdly and lastly, the rifled-bore cannon offers distinct advantages over smoothbore types when armoured battles are fought at extremely close quarters, i.e. at ranges between 700 metres and 1.5km, as will typically be the case in both the plains of Punjab and deserts of Rajasthan, given the nature of the terrain prevailing in both areas.

http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2011/09/t-90am-latest-avatar-of-t-90-mbt.html

 

[marrakesh]

...................Nothing against Russians, but I saw a photo where SU-27 pilots had put a homemade wooden rack with commercial GPS on it to their planes "dashboard". That tells a lot about the level Russian Air Force is today. Decay after SU is everywhere to be seen. They have top stuff but in small numbers only and also that have not been tested against latest western stuff..............................

Please, please, tell me where I can see it? My son's friend is a pilot Su-30SM, I want to make a joke him.

 

[jouni]

Please, please, tell me where I can see it? My son's friend is a pilot Su-30SM, I want to make a joke him.

Sorry, it was SU24…....................

 

[marrakesh]

Sorry, it was SU24…....................

does not matter, anyway - thank you

 

[ersakthivel]

@ersakthivel ji , this may amuse you :biggrin2:


our dear friend prasun sen gupta wrote on September 2, 2011




http://trishul-trident.blogspot.in/2011/09/t-90am-latest-avatar-of-t-90-mbt.html

We should be cautious in dealing with guptha's stuff