Arjun vs T90 MBT

[sgarg]

@Pulkit, T-90 has some genuine good points. Army is very sensitive to logistics, and is tilted towards lighter tanks. This is fine.

I have no issues with army going to war in T-90.

 

[Pulkit]

@Pulkit, T-90 has some genuine good points. Army is very sensitive to logistics, and is tilted towards lighter tanks. This is fine.

I have no issues with army going to war in T-90.

Even I have no issues with army going to war in T-90 but I have the issue when you demean a really good and better weapon just to fill your pockets.
Yes T-90 has some good points but how is it better than Arjun is what I am looking for.
Just to say when T-90 was bought it had no A/C and was not built as per IA requirements .

And Kindly elaborate on "tilted towards lighter tanks."???

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Do you realize that its Army making Arjun specs and making it heavier, In that sense its illogical to call Army tilted towards lighter tanks, At near 51-52 tons Indian T-90 is not lighter either ..

You may have no issues, But we do and many in Army who have operated both Arjun and T-90/72 ..

@Pulkit, T-90 has some genuine good points. Army is very sensitive to logistics, and is tilted towards lighter tanks. This is fine.

I have no issues with army going to war in T-90.

 

[ersakthivel]

@Pulkit, T-90 has some genuine good points. Army is very sensitive to logistics, and is tilted towards lighter tanks. This is fine.

I have no issues with army going to war in T-90.

If T-90 is so good why are the russians not buying it in thousands like us?

We are the largest t-90 buyers in the world. Why?

Logisitics has come a long way. arjun is operable across much wider terrain than t-90 due to lower ground pressure per square inch given by wider tracks.

 

[Kay]

@Ray Sir
This question has been put in a different way many times before. My question is, if there was no T-90, then would the army order the Arjun in larger numbers and in terrains where they now prefer T-90? Or, the Arjun inoperable in such terrains?

 

[Ray]

@Ray Sir
This question has been put in a different way many times before. My question is, if there was no T-90, then would the army order the Arjun in larger numbers and in terrains where they now prefer T-90? Or, the Arjun inoperable in such terrains?

If there was no T 90 and if the Arjun did not make the grade, then India would have to find another tank from the world.

If T-90 is so good why are the russians not buying it in thousands like us?

We are the largest t-90 buyers in the world. Why?

Since 2011, the Russian armed forces have ceased ordering the T-90, and are instead waiting for the development of the Armata Universal Combat Platform that is expected to enter service in 2016

Logisitics has come a long way. arjun is operable across much wider terrain than t-90 due to lower ground pressure per square inch given by wider tracks.

The lower ground pressure would not be material in other terrains except the desert. In the mountains, if it can be used in places, then dimensions will be the deciding factor because of narrow tracks and roads.

Both would operate well on hard terrain and none will be able to operate in riverine terrain.

 

[jouni]

How much are you paying per tank for those T90s ?

 

[ersakthivel]

If there was no T 90 and if the Arjun did not make the grade, then India would have to find another tank from the world.



Since 2011, the Russian armed forces have ceased ordering the T-90, and are instead waiting for the development of the Armata Universal Combat Platform that is expected to enter service in 2016



The lower ground pressure would not be material in other terrains except the desert. In the mountains, if it can be used in places, then dimensions will be the deciding factor because of narrow tracks and roads.

Both would operate well on hard terrain and none will be able to operate in riverine terrain.

Sir ,

You are right , in narrow mountain passes track width will be deciding factor,

but most of india's tank war zone is deserts of punjab and river-canal system intensive punjab and desolate plains of rann of kutch in gujarath.

World Of Defense: Arjun Weight Ratio Compared To Other Tanks

Where this ground pressure is very important.

A
World Of Defense: Arjun Weight Ratio Compared To Other Tanks

Arjun MBT has a bigger track-print, hence, its Nominal Ground Pressure is only 0.84 kg/cm2 which compares well with other MBTs of the world . Further, with a combination of low NGP and high power / weight ratio, it has commendable going ability. The proof being Arjun MBT crossing the Ravi at Lassian, without any engineer support, whatsoever and it has crossed numerous patches of marshy terrain which are marked 'non-tankable' in going maps of the Gurdaspur-Pathankot sector.

So these were the design specs laid down by IA for Arjun, Note previously with T series tanks Ravi at Lassian was marked "non tankable".

So IA can induct Arjun in thousands as it will prove more operable in india's most critical tankable area.

The existing BWTA railway wagons have a payload capacity of 60+ tons, with the only issue being the width of the MBT, which is more than that of the BWTA wagon and so, the tracks protrude on both sides. A six-inch wooden sleeper, when placed on the floor of the wagons, before loading the Arjun Mk1 MBT, ensures that the tank tracks move over adjacent platforms without fouling with them.

With this arrangement Arjun Mk1s were moved as Class 'A' ODC on Chennai-Delhi, Delhi-Suratgarh, Delhi-Jaiselmer, Chennai-Balasore and Balasore-Delhi railway lines on several occasions. In addition, on a number of occasions, the Arjun Mk1 was ferried over long distances on BEML P-80 trailers towed by Tatra 8 x 8 T815 VTI tractors.

Also Arjun can move in Indian railways as class -A ODC without any problems.

it was rated to have much better on the move shooting ability and much better accuracy resulting in much better first hit kill by the army.Also it has better water fording capabilities as well.

It's electronics were heat hardened to with stand the summer heat, while T-90s were reported to have problems in this area.
If we don't deploy a tank which was perfected over 30 years of r&D then it will be a great strategic blunder as all western armies operate higher protection heavy weight tanks.

SO it is the 4 men crew safe, ammo storage design specs, along with lower ground pressure per square inch and ability to fire HESH ,insisted by IA that ended up in Arjun having the weight and dimensions it has along with rifled gun.

 

[Ray]

Sir ,

You are right , in narrow mountain passes track width will be deciding factor,

but most of india's tank war zone is deserts of punjab and river-canal system intensive punjab and desolate plains of rann of kutch in gujarath.

World Of Defense: Arjun Weight Ratio Compared To Other Tanks

Where this ground pressure is very important.

Good point.

If the banks are inundate in the Punjab, then it is still no go.

In the Rann same is when the water just recedes.

That is why there is something called the 'campaigning season'.

A
World Of Defense: Arjun Weight Ratio Compared To Other Tanks



So these were the design specs laid down by IA for Arjun, Note previously with T series tanks Ravi at Lassian was marked "non tankable".

So IA can induct Arjun in thousands as it will prove more operable in india's most critical tankable area.

Tanks don't merely move on trains.

There is also the tank transporters which are more critical.

You cannot run a tank on its own. The wear and tear is quite heavy.

Also Arjun can move in Indian railways as class -A ODC without any problems.

As I said before and above.

SO it is the 4 men crew safe, ammo storage design specs, along with lower ground pressure per square inch and ability to fire HESH ,insisted by IA that ended up in Arjun having the weight and dimensions it has along with rifled gun.

If a 3 man crew was adequate and combat proved, is there a requirement for 4?

Manpower ceiling.

 

[Blackwater]

Dear members,

During the recent victory parade in moscava. russlaan has unveiled the new beast in block T-14 Armata.

Can india consider that T-14 as replacement of all time fail project Arjuna.


its better to spend wisely on product than time waste on false ego project.

keeping in mind our dear friends pak and china developing arsenal very fast

 

[Blackwater]

 

[Blackwater]

 

[indiandefencefan]

Dear members,

During the recent victory parade in moscava. russlaan has unveiled the new beast in block T-14 Armata.

Can india consider that T-14 as replacement of all time fail project Arjuna.


its better to spend wisely on product than time waste on false ego project.

keeping in mind our dear friends pak and china developing arsenal very fast

With a lot of attention given to make in India ....... induction of the t-14 cannot be considered with full TOT which we cant expect russia to provide when they themselves havnt even inducted it in mass themselves.

The tank is yet to be tested in a battlefield and until now its capabilities exist only on paper.

The t-14 will also be pricey and drain funds at a time when the force need to urgently replenish their supply of ammo which is criticaly low.

Just my thoughts

 

[Blackwater]

With a lot of attention given to make in India ....... induction of the t-14 cannot be considered with full TOT which we cant expect russia to provide when they themselves havnt even inducted it in mass themselves.

The tank is yet to be tested in a battlefield and until now its capabilities exist only on paper.

The t-14 will also be pricey and drain funds at a time when the force need to urgently replenish their supply of ammo which is criticaly low.

Just my thoughts

not as pricey as arjun and its 40 yrs of development

 

[pmaitra]

• I don't agree that Arjun is a failed project.
• T-14 is a great tank on paper, but it is yet to go through complete testing.
• We don't know whether the T-14 will be able to operate in the hot Indian climate.
• Our focus should be on indigenizing the many imported components in the Arjun, while continuing to evolve it.

Watch out: Soon, some generals with zero scientific knowledge will come up with requirements and threat analyses that will closely align with an "urgent" need to import the T-14.

 

[sob]

After pumping so much money into this programme we cannot pull the plug. RM should constitute a group of the user and DRDO/CVRDE and instruct them to iron out the differences and come out with a realistic requirements and project to be completed in limited time frame.

In the mean time Army should be asked to run the tanks to the ground to get an idea of the capability or lack of capability of the Tank. shortage of imported components cannot be a reason for rejecting a Tank.

 

[Ray]

After pumping so much money into this programme we cannot pull the plug. RM should constitute a group of the user and DRDO/CVRDE and instruct them to iron out the differences and come out with a realistic requirements and project to be completed in limited time frame.

In the mean time Army should be asked to run the tanks to the ground to get an idea of the capability or lack of capability of the Tank. shortage of imported components cannot be a reason for rejecting a Tank.

The shortages are in the critical assemblies and sub-assemblies such as the transmission system, targeting and thermal sights.

Without them, the tanks is a no go.

I don't think that the tank shall be rejected.

It, however, shows how lackluster is our approach to provisioning, and keeping the fleet serviceable.

High on rhetoric and low in delivery.

 

[sob]

The shortages are in the critical assemblies and sub-assemblies such as the transmission system, targeting and thermal sights.

Without them, the tanks is a no go.

I don't think that the tank shall be rejected.

It, however, shows how lackluster is our approach to provisioning, and keeping the fleet serviceable.

High on rhetoric and low in delivery.

Sir, I meant that the agencies involved cannot afford to have shortages for a Tank which is undergoing Trial. When Millions have been spent why can't we have the spares ready.
I completely agree with you this shows the lacklustre approach towards the job.

 

[Ray]

Having seen and interacted with the DRDO and OFB, what surprised me is that there is no dearth of talent.

What was most extraordinary was the kam chalao attitude with none bothered to meet deadlines or ensure that there was no slippages.

Imagine, the Army has only 20 days WWR when it is supposed to have 40 days and the OFB and imports failing to ensure that the Army is kept operationally equipped.

I was watching a TV programme on the subject and I was horrified that the Tejas is still far from being operational since critical components have not been procured or matched.

 

[ersakthivel]

Having seen and interacted with the DRDO and OFB, what surprised me is that there is no dearth of talent.

What was most extraordinary was the kam chalao attitude with none bothered to meet deadlines or ensure that there was no slippages.

Imagine, the Army has only 20 days WWR when it is supposed to have 40 days and the OFB and imports failing to ensure that the Army is kept operationally equipped.

I was watching a TV programme on the subject and I was horrified that the Tejas is still far from being operational since critical components have not been procured or matched.

Sir,
With the ex army chief Bikram Singh by his side, out IIT educated defence minister Manohar Parrikar took a dig at the indian defence forces by saying their specs for GSQR looks stright out of marvel comics!!!

What he meany was the sheer foolishness on the part of Army and airforce to draw up ASRs and GSQRs with unrealistic expectations.

IAF officially acknowledged its tech ignorance to the same CAG by saying , that they dont even have qualified guys who have any competence to even suggest preliminary airframe design for the Tejas!!! Yet many retired Air marshals of IAF wanted to run the tejas program!!!

Imagine the fate of a deep tech program like tejas being run by tech dummy IAF Air marshals.

Contrast this with Indian navy. It has a qualified naval architect bureau staffed by competent guys ,which churns out battleship designs and has managed to build almost all its combat units in india itself.

One ex indian navy electrical engineer who was identified by navy and deputed to Sonar project has made it big in US in some technical field .

Why cant army and airforce become tech savy like that.

Alsoi n 2004 , IAF changed the WVR missile specs of tejas from 60 Kg R-60 to 75 Kg R-73 IR missile which neccesiated total redesign of tejas wing delaying the program significantly.

The airforce offered a pathetic justification for their delay in asking for R-73 E -HMDS mating only in 2009 and identifying BVR missile for tejas onlt in 2011, bysaying that weapons must be decided as close to operational readiness of the platform as possible. this reveals the complete ignorance of the IAF people in even understanding how long it would take to achieve these feats successfully.

In total CAG identified 88 months delays due to design modification by IAF for tejas.


Also IAF failed to operationalize the liasion committee with ADA till 2006, if only it did that in 2001 a lot of time would have been saved.

It is time the new defence minister evolves a mechanism which binds together IAF, IA and DRDO , in close co operation like Navy does and put an end to this monumental irresponsibility.

And most of the 53 shortcomings of tejas mentioned by CAG were rectified by now. The CAG report is a collection dating from 2009 to 2013, well before IOC-2. now all weather clearance, brake chute problems and supersonic speeds at sea level are all achieved,

And the so called one ton extra weight is no design incompetence as gripen C too weighs more or less the same 6.5 tons empty weight. SO there is no way in the world to design a 5.5 ton empty weight weight single engined fighter that carries enough fuel for 500 Km combat radius and has a max take off weight of 13.5 tons as gripen has shown.

Also the armata too weighs about 60 tons!!!! even with 3 men crew. The reason cited by the design house is extra armor and safe ammo carriage.

So most of the overweight claims on 60 plus ton Arjun too are simply by technically illiterate people who have no grasp of modern tank warfare with armor good enough to withstand today's combat conditions!!!

No one says DRDO is the ideal model of defence research around the world. it too needs to be broken up and re organized, But if IA and IAF doesn't get some technical guys,leveraging home grown tech into successful weapons will be a mirage only.

Otherwise we can repeat the sorry spectacle of IAF changing its ASR for the AMCA three times from 2004 to 2014, (chinese have built and flown two 5th gens stealths by the time our IAF has decided to finalize their ASR!!! And that ASR was so impossible that Manohar Parikar has asked IAF to tone down the super cruise at mach 1.5 spec(same as that of F-22))


and

IA changing its GSQR for ARJUN four times, and still Army doesn't even have the foggiest idea of what a Future Main Battle Tank is!!!(Russians are fielding one right now!!!)

Its time IAf and IA identify bright young officers and sends them abroad for courses in Combat vehicle Design and Aeronautics and start their own fledgling design bureau.

Today's war is won on technology most of the times. So it is dangerous to have tech illiterate leaderships like the present lot serving in IA and IAF.

And Defence Minister Parrikar should issue a straight fiat to these guys to start griping about DRDO products in the open. If they do at least let them preface it with statements like ,"I dont even have the foggiest idea about what I am writing as I am totally tech illiterate", like they do on Cigarate
advertisements.

Because of late folks like retd Air marshal matheswaran

and many other retd army folks griping about 60 ton over weight Arjun MBT(where are the russians going to field their 60 ton Armata , in Mars according to these gents perhaps!!!)

are exactly doing the same thing, that is bluffing about stuff they dont even have the foggiest ideas about.