Arjun vs T90 MBT

[ersakthivel]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Wait ..... You don't you even know the basic layout of the tank .. And you are trying to pick an argument Ok I will explain it to with colours and arrows so that even you will understand .

The red arrows are pointing to the drivers hatch .
Which correspond to this

The green arrows correspond to the ammo

Which corresponds to

In that picture the turret has been removed and the picture is taken from above into the turret ring .

If mines cannot go through steel tubes and covers then the armoured carousel of the T90 is practically invulnerable ..
The turret bustle can very easily be hit if the turret is turned or did you forget that . Let us not forget how utterly vulnerable the front ammo rack is from direct hits by Shells and other AT weapons.

Give me the estimate you LOS armor thickness of blue colored area infront of the hull ammo storage . And explain how the hull ammo is going to get a direct hit in Arjun mk1.

Only frontal hits are possible. And that too the shell fro the front has to protrude through the length of blue block(rough estimate suggests it is more than a meter.) to score a direct hit on Ammo in hull of arjun mk1.

top attach missile is not going to get there because of the huge turret block sitting over the hull ammo.

Show me your calculation and prove Arjun ammo storage in the hull is vulnerable.

this is the length wise side view of Arjun mk1 mark the ammo storage in the hull in exact dimensions and give a calculation about how long the anti tank shell has to penetrate to reach the hull ammo storage.

Another picture below states total length of Arjun is 10.64 meter. use it to scale and show how many meters the anti tank shell should penetrate to reach the hull Ammo?

 

[ersakthivel]

In the picture above driver hatch is well infront of Ammo storage . The front edge of ammo storage and the driver seat are almost in line with the driver's seat. Most of it covered by turret front overhang.

In the picture below you have marked the ammo storage well infront of the driver , even infront of the turret overhang. WHY?

Your entire green shaded area is not hull ammo storage, but the blue block marked in the schematics(which is more than a meter in depth!!!) below.

may be you are too busy proving your lie that Arjun hull Ammo storage can easily be hit, so you forgot some scales and proportion on the drawing , conveniently perhaps,

 

[karn]

In the picture above driver hatch is well infront of Ammo storage . The front edge of ammo storage and the driver seat are almost in line with the driver's seat. Most of it covered by turret front overhang.

In the picture below you have marked the ammo storage well infront of the driver , even infront of the turret overhang. WHY?

Your entire green shaded area is not hull ammo storage, but the blue block marked in the schematics(which is more than a meter in depth!!!) below.

may be you are too busy proving your lie that Arjun hull Ammo storage can easily be hit, so you forgot some scales and proportion on the drawing , conveniently perhaps,

The blue block is just the frontal armour of the arjun behind behind which is the ammunition.. I could not show "depth " just by shading , the green area indicates the area under which the ammo is stored. There is nothing else stopping a shell from hitting the ammo . I shaded green right from the turret ring stopping short of the front of the tank just like your schematic showed .. ? Incase you are getting confused by the depth the head lights in the blue area are not at the same level as the top few rows of ammo the sloping armour is just in front of the ammo . The "lip" where the lower and upper armour plate meet is kept empty as the space is too small to store anything (except maybe a small battery ). This space roughly corresponds to your 1meter gap which offers no extra protection whatsoever. No matter how much you hem and haw the fact remains that a penetrating hit to the right side of the hull front will cause the ammo to explode.
Also

Show me your calculation and prove Arjun ammo storage in the hull is vulnerable.

Only frontal hits are possible

You answered your own question . ....and you get angry when I ask you stop your mental gymnastics.
@Kunal Biswas New t90s come with sealed armoured carousel with the ammo door only opening to allow for the ammo to be extracted with the rest of the hull ammo stored in the bustle . Besides if fire and sparcs are falling from the fighting compartment into the ammo what is the state of the crew ? . The IA should modify the t 72s to have this feature of T90 as well. Nothing however excuses the arjun storing the ammo in the place where the tank is most likely to be ( the front).

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I again suggesting you to speak things about only when you know about it, The blue part is actually under hull is fuel tank containing diesel, Not Armour ..

The same configuration is almost in all modern tanks and you conveniently forget to quote pictures which does not support your words ..

About T-90M, Nothing is changed, They have added additional ammo bin at exterior of tank to supply it ammo when ammo is exhausted inside auto loader, This however is unsafe to do in conflict area, Regarding Indian T-90S, Their is hardly any space left, The tool boxes had to be mounted over ERA ..

Arjun is design based on correcting T-tanks flaws, Including auto-loader and service issues, It is not a Vicker upgrade ..

===========

This is no place for argument winning ..

The blue block is just the frontal armour of the arjun behind behind which is the ammunition.. I could not show "depth " just by shading , the green area indicates the area under which the ammo is stored. There is nothing else stopping a shell from hitting the ammo . I shaded green right from the turret ring stopping short of the front of the tank just like your schematic showed .. ?

@Kunal Biswas New t90s come with sealed armoured carousel with the ammo door only opening to allow for the ammo to be extracted with the rest of the hull ammo stored in the bustle . Besides if fire and sparcs are falling from the fighting compartment into the ammo what is the state of the crew ? . The IA should modify the t 72s to have this feature of T90 as well. Nothing however excuses the arjun storing the ammo in the place where the tank is most likely to be ( the front).

 

[karn]

I again suggesting you to speak things about only when you know about it, The blue part is actually under hull is fuel tank containing diesel, The same configuration is almost in all modern tanks and you conveniently forget to quote pictures which does not support your words ..

About T-90M, Nothing is changed, They have added additional ammo bin at exterior of tank to supply it ammo when ammo is exhausted, This however is unsafe to do in conflict area, Regarding Indian T-90S, Their is hardly any space left, The tool boxes had to be mounted over ERA ..

This is no place for argument winning ..

Fuel was my second guess .. But that does not help your argument at all ....


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MOD EDIT >

======== Please maintain thread quality, Mod Patience have its limits, We do not encourage repetition of same topic over again and again and one liner replies ========

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

@Ray Sir Your response on CAG report is awaited.
Kindly share your views regarding it.
I really honestly want to understand the Army point of view on it.....

 

[Ray]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

@Ray Sir Your response on CAG report is awaited.
Kindly share your views regarding it.
I really honestly want to understand the Army point of view on it.....

Please enumerate the points on which you wish me to comment.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Please enumerate the points on which you wish me to comment.

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has blamed the Indian Army for delaying the induction of Arjun tanks developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and blamed the Ministry of Defence for playing along by allowing costly imports.
A comparative trial between the Arjun and the imported Russian T-90 tanks was done in April 2010 by fixing different benchmarks – very stringent for the Arjun and relaxed for the T-90, said the CAG in its report tabled in Parliament last Friday. The Arjun still scored over the T-90 on some issues, the trials were conducted on four parameters — fire power, survivability, reliability and miscellaneous issues.
The CAG has revealed what was restricted to the corridors of MoD and hidden behind secrecy of 'national interest'. An order was placed for additional T-90 tanks in November 2007 even as Army kept on adding its requirements for the Arjun, said the CAG. The CAG also did not spare the Ministry of Defence, saying the "decision for import was taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security based on a note submitted by the ministry".
Incidentally, the issue of 'sabotage' in trials of the Arjun was first flagged in April 2008 by then Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh during the first term of UPA government. Since then, Rao switched parties, and is now again at the same post in the Narendra Modi-led regime. "The possibility of sabotage needs to be examined," Singh had said in 2008.
The CAG, in its latest report said there were eight instances in which Arjun in the comparative trial was judged against more stringent benchmarks parameters. "We noticed, eight instances where the Army placed benchmark of parameters on Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks"¦ the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field".

 

[Ray]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

The Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has blamed the Indian Army for delaying the induction of Arjun tanks developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and blamed the Ministry of Defence for playing along by allowing costly imports.
A comparative trial between the Arjun and the imported Russian T-90 tanks was done in April 2010 by fixing different benchmarks – very stringent for the Arjun and relaxed for the T-90, said the CAG in its report tabled in Parliament last Friday. The Arjun still scored over the T-90 on some issues, the trials were conducted on four parameters — fire power, survivability, reliability and miscellaneous issues.
The CAG has revealed what was restricted to the corridors of MoD and hidden behind secrecy of 'national interest'. An order was placed for additional T-90 tanks in November 2007 even as Army kept on adding its requirements for the Arjun, said the CAG. The CAG also did not spare the Ministry of Defence, saying the "decision for import was taken by the Cabinet Committee on Security based on a note submitted by the ministry".
Incidentally, the issue of 'sabotage' in trials of the Arjun was first flagged in April 2008 by then Minister of State for Defence Production Rao Inderjit Singh during the first term of UPA government. Since then, Rao switched parties, and is now again at the same post in the Narendra Modi-led regime. "The possibility of sabotage needs to be examined," Singh had said in 2008.
The CAG, in its latest report said there were eight instances in which Arjun in the comparative trial was judged against more stringent benchmarks parameters. "We noticed, eight instances where the Army placed benchmark of parameters on Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks"¦ the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field".

While the CAG is the competent authority regarding losses caused to the Treasury, are they competent to comment on operational and technical matters?

If there was a deliberate delay, was it in financial terms?

Notwithstanding, if the delay was mentioned even in passing, it has to be investigated - but by a competent body composed of all types of experts to include the military, bureaucrats, auditors, scientist and so on, including the CBI, who are experts in investigative work.

Likewise, that body should examine all charges made by the CAG.

It is in the interest of the Nation, be they the military or anyone, that the whole truth is known.

However, it should be done with expertise of person in all fields that are connected with the case and those guilty should be incarcerated.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

While the CAG is the competent authority regarding losses caused to the Treasury, are they competent to comment on operational and technical matters?

They have not commented on the operational and technical matters . What they have said is that in comparative trials the benchmarks set were different.
They have said that the benchmarks set for Arjun was too harsh/High in comparison to T90

If there was a deliberate delay, was it in financial terms?

Financial yes,Army and MOD wanted money to buy T90 (there is a sure possibility of kickbacks) so there was no funds for Arjun

Notwithstanding, if the delay was mentioned even in passing, it has to be investigated - but by a competent body composed of all types of experts to include the military, bureaucrats, auditors, scientist and so on, including the CBI, who are experts in investigative work.

MOD Manohar parrikar has hinted validity of these claims but Army has not denied defended it.
Army could have easily countered it but they have not

Likewise, that body should examine all charges made by the CAG.

I will agree but thats again a "time buying common man memory loss" technique.

It is in the interest of the Nation, be they the military or anyone, that the whole truth is known.

However, it should be done with expertise of person in all fields that are connected with the case and those guilty should be incarcerated.

Will army give free hand to any independent body and will that independent body comprise of civilians if.....

 

[Ray]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

They have not commented on the operational and technical matters . What they have said is that in comparative trials the benchmarks set were different.
They have said that the benchmarks set for Arjun was too harsh/High in comparison to T90 Financial yes,Army and MOD wanted money to buy T90 (there is a sure possibility of kickbacks) so there was no funds for Arjun MOD Manohar parrikar has hinted validity of these claims but Army has not denied defended it.
Army could have easily countered it but they have not I will agree but thats again a "time buying common man memory loss" technique.
Will army give free hand to any independent body and will that independent body comprise of civilians if.....

There is more than what meets the eye.

It has to be investigated, and to use Arnab Goswami's famous last words, The Nation Needs to Know.

How can the Army stonewall a Govt inquiry?

Was the Kargil Committee stonewalled?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

I don`t believe, Anyone is denying the fact that few Corrupted men in uniform in our Army have deep hands in this ugly business ..

@Pulkit, It will be reasonable to have proof before burning these people down in very public, Calling Army as whole does make statement rude ..

They have said that the benchmarks set for Arjun was too harsh/High in comparison to T90 Financial yes,Army and MOD wanted money to buy T90 (there is a sure possibility of kickbacks) so there was no funds for Arjun MOD Manohar parrikar has hinted validity of these claims but Army has not denied defended it.

It is in the interest of the Nation, be they the military or anyone, that the whole truth is known.However, it should be done with expertise of person in all fields that are connected with the case and those guilty should be incarcerated.

It has to be investigated, and to use Arnab Goswami's famous last words, The Nation Needs to Know.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

There is more than what meets the eye.

It has to be investigated, and to use Arnab Goswami's famous last words, The Nation Needs to Know.

#Argo Roks Yes we all want to know

How can the Army stonewall a Govt inquiry?

I am just raising my concern because when u talk about experts who will decide who is a expert and who is not

Was the Kargil Committee stonewalled?

In this case both the parties Army and MOD have there own motives how can we assure transparency ....

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

I don`t believe, Anyone is denying the fact that few Corrupted men in uniform in our Army have deep hands in this ugly business ..

@Pulkit, It will be reasonable to have proof before burning these people down in very public, Calling Army as whole does make statement rude ..

Kunal Sir U just said it out loud what I was trying to convey.
I just not think Ray Sir will agree.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

I don`t think @Ray Sir is denying either, Anyone with a stats like him cannot speak things which does not have solid backing or else their words will regard as empty even when it has water in it, I hope you understand ..

Don`t think that Sir is a pro Army and will support Army or anything even when its wrong, For example @Ray Sir and I , Both used INSAS 1B1, Sir and I, We Both know that many things said about the Rifle is false, Sir himself said many times in this forum that things said about 1B1 negatively are over-hyped and false and he does not back away If its about fault within Army or Army men ..

You can ask @Ray Sir, If you wish ..

Kunal Sir U just said it out loud what I was trying to convey.
I just not think Ray Sir will agree.

 

[Ray]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

#Argo Roks Yes we all want to know I am just raising my concern because when u talk about experts who will decide who is a expert and who is not
In this case both the parties Army and MOD have there own motives how can we assure transparency ....

Anyone who is conversant with the issue and is capable enough.

Just like in every other expert committee.

 

[Ray]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

Kunal Sir U just said it out loud what I was trying to convey.
I just not think Ray Sir will agree.

Corruption?

Is it not endemic?

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

I don`t think @Ray Sir is denying either, Anyone with a stats like him cannot speak things which does not have solid backing or else their words will regard as empty even when it has water in it, I hope you understand ..

Don`t think that Sir is a pro Army and will support Army or anything even when its wrong, For example @Ray Sir and I , Both used INSAS 1B1, Sir and I, We Both know that many things said about the Rifle is false, Sir himself said many times in this forum that things said about 1B1 negatively are over-hyped and false and he does not back away If its about fault within Army or Army men ..

You can ask @Ray Sir, If you wish ..

Anyone who is conversant with the issue and is capable enough.

Just like in every other expert committee.

Corruption?

Is it not endemic?

@Ray Sir do you believe there is something fishy in this case and army is at fault when we talk about different benchmarks in comparative trials?

How committees work in our nation is known to us all.
@Kunal Biswas I still feel Ray sir will be favoring Army in this case....

 

[Ray]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

@Ray Sir do you believe there is something fishy in this case and army is at fault when we talk about different benchmarks in comparative trials?

How committees work in our nation is known to us all.
@Kunal Biswas I still feel Ray sir will be favoring Army in this case....

I don't believe a sausage in what anyone says.

I believe in the truth and facts and not agendas.

Let a probe take place with those who are experts on the various facets of the issues.

 

[Pulkit]

Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

I don't believe a sausage in what anyone says.

I believe in the truth and facts and not agendas.

Let a probe take place with those who are experts on the various facets of the issues.

Thats gonna take alot of time.
Prima facie what will be your take on this?
So you dont agree when we say some of the uniform men might be involved in this.