Arjun vs T90 MBT

ersakthivel

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From what I know the Russian T-90 have AC ( and heater ) even though cold is a way of life for them .....the exported Algerian T-90 certainly have AC they operate in Desert as we do ,, Having as AC these days on any military platform is not considered a luxury but a necessity .....Even if you have extreme cold climate you still need a heater in the tank.

So I am not sure why Army is dilly dallying on fitting an AC ....I am sure the general staff work in AC offices and Homes and dont experience 55 * C in both places.

To add to that the Army comes with come sky high specs for AC as both the Israel and Russian AC have failed in trials.

Our procurement system is screwed up right from PM to MOD to Defence Forces level .......the fact we manage to procure something every 10 years is itself a miracle and deserves a mention in Guinness Book of Record.
Point is whether it has the secure AC positions to brave the indian dessert summer heat.

the answer is no.

And for ten years IA couldn't find a solution.

the answer is not the lack of the money or efforts,

Solutions are sub optimal. And haven't resolved the issue.

@sayareakd has posted a global tender issued by IA recently for the AC problem
 
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Austin

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The Algerians use T-90 and they have external AC and they operate in desert .......I was speaking with an Algerian gent on their T-90 operations in the army he mentioned that the T-90 operated along Libyan border experience temperature over 55 * routinely.

The T-90SA do have External AC but I am not sure of which make or model.
 

Kunal Biswas

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What kind of desert they have there ?

The Algerians use T-90 and they have external AC and they operate in desert .......I was speaking with an Algerian gent on their T-90 operations in the army he mentioned that the T-90 operated along Libyan border experience temperature over 55 * routinely.

The T-90SA do have External AC but I am not sure of which make or model.
 

Austin

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Near the Libyan border is what I was told , did bother to ask with desert but Western Sahara is what I assume ......I saw pics of T-90SA in desert Camo

Just chance to come up this

T-90 — a refreshed machine for Russian Army | Encyclopedia of safety
Taking into account the experience of operating the T-90S "Bishma" in the hot climate of India, has been elected as the initial version of the machine with the installation of air conditioning systems, also with a modified laser detection system. This option received the serial code "Object 188SA" ("A" — for Algeria) and the troop designation T-90SA. A prototype machine made in May 2005 to the end of the same year he uspeshno_proshel tests in Algeria, including the harsh conditions of the desert. In January 2006, during the visit of the President of the Russian Federation VV Putin's visit to Algeria Russian "Rosoboronexport" signed a package of agreements on the supply of various weapons, including armored. Russian side for 4 years was to supply Algeria 185 T-90S tanks A and their commander's version of the T-90SAK also to upgrade 250 tanks T-72M/

M1 to the level of T-72M1M Russian forces professionals, but local Algerian production areas. In addition, agreements to anticipate the delivery of a recovery vehicles ARV-1M equipped Kondyukov also simulators. The first batch of 40 tanks was supposed to deliver by the end of 2006
 

Kunal Biswas

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The Russian AC failed in Indian thar ..



DRDO and some Pvt Co, Developed AC and ECS for Russian origin tank and IFV in India, The same ECS which is on Arjun, Picture is grim as this is not implemented in mass ..


Near the Libyan border is what I was told ,
 

Saumyasupraik

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I'll just leave this here.


Edit: My bad, I didn't know this was posted here before.
 
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SinghSher1984

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I don't think India should be pursuing a strategy centered around heavy armor. One air conditioned tank will suck more fun than 10 villages.

India is not energy especially oil secure. In the event of war, that will be an issue. India will fight defensive wars, last time it tried to go on offensive Nixon threatened nukes.

A stronger navy, and artillery to compete with China on shipping and keep territory secure is paramount. Air power is not as important in the Indian theater, but today's battlefield is really all about the air.

Getting atgm mounted on apc will be better. If you can disable enemy's armour requiring repairs, you have won.

India has the world's strongest infantry, it should strategies with that in mind. It does continue to piss off, or try to eliminate that group so long term it may have to fight like white people.

Armour is not that useful defensively. USA uses it for invasions, which India does not have the ability or high level staff to conduct, anywhere period.
 

Kunal Biswas

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There is no Heavy armour in the context ..

There is enough energy reserves for doctrines under which Strike Crops are ready ..

ATGM mounted on a APC are not useful against Infantry nor Armour in all times, To counter an Armour effectively an Armour is required ..

Our Infantry is not the strongest, Its good but not the best yet ..

Armour in Indian context have strong usefulness in Defensive operations, In past it used effectively against Chinese and Pakistanis ..

================

This thread is for T-90S vs ARJUN MK1 ..

You can open another thread for the topic ..

I don't think India should be pursuing a strategy centered around heavy armor. One air conditioned tank will suck more fun than 10 villages.

India is not energy especially oil secure. In the event of war, that will be an issue. India will fight defensive wars, last time it tried to go on offensive Nixon threatened nukes.

Getting atgm mounted on apc will be better. If you can disable enemy's armour requiring repairs, you have won.

India has the world's strongest infantry, it should strategies with that in mind. It does continue to piss off, or try to eliminate that group so long term it may have to fight like white people.

Armour is not that useful defensively. USA uses it for invasions, which India does not have the ability or high level staff to conduct, anywhere period.
 

SinghSher1984

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I see. Ok mass apc can work as most armor is one hit plate (the one able to stop the missile is)

The full situation has not been studied if planners think that an India with no domestic energy or aircraft carrier has an energy reserve.

In a hot war, proxys will be used and there are plenty.

Will say no more though.

Edit - The infantry and soldiers are the best, maybe not the ones you had in mind. :p
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Sridhar

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Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help | Defense News | defensenews.com



NEW DELHI — The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.

The Indian Ministry of Defence formally approved the Army's three-year-old proposal for the T-90 upgrade Feb. 24, and the tender for the upgrade will be sent only to domestic defense companies, an MoD source said.

The upgraded T-90 tanks will have air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks' existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.

India contracted to acquire 310 T-90s from Russia in 2001, 190 of which were license-produced at the Avadi-based, state-owned ordnance factory. Another contract was signed in 2007 for the licensed production of 330 tanks. The lack of an air conditioning system in these tanks caused damage to their thermal imaging systems when operating in hot climates, an Army official said.

The Army plans to procure a total of 1,657 T-90s by 2020, which will include 1,000 tanks produced indigenously under full transfer of technology from Russia, with all parts made in India.

"DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights," said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

"The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful," Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, "The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage."

Rahul Bhonsle, another retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said, "A major part of the proposed upgrade will include providing an enhanced fire control potential because in the comparative trials between the Arjun and T-90 tanks last year, the Arjun had demonstrated a superior sighting system than the Russian tank."

The Army carried out comparative trials between the heavier homemade Arjun and the lighter Russian-built T-90 in the deserts of Rajasthan last year, with the aim of assessing the Arjun's combat worthiness.

Both the Arjun and T-90 are being produced at the Avadi factory. Production of the Mark-1 model of the Arjun has begun with 124 tanks ordered. The first Mark-2 models, of which 124 also are ordered, are expected by early 2016.

The indigenous production of about 1,000 additional T-90s has been contracted, but production has not yet begun.

"The Russians have not provided full-scale [intellectual property rights] and are withholding some critical designs; thus, full-scale indigenization has been held up in Avadi," Bhonsle said.

A Russian diplomat, however, said Russia is supplying all necessary technology, and that the responsibility for production delays rests with the Avadi factory.

An official of the Ordnance Factory Board, which administers the Avadi factory, said the Russians have supplied only 40 percent of the technology and nearly none since 2008. â– 
 

Kunal Biswas

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So all these faults now coming in HOT, And like many here in DFI & BR raised these issues in past are now conform by horse mouth ..

Bloody SCAM !


Indian Army To Upgrade T-90 Tanks With Domestic Help | Defense News | defensenews.com


NEW DELHI — The Indian Army will upgrade more than 600 Russian-built T-90 tanks by adding new features and replacing their thermal imaging sights, navigation systems and fire control systems at a cost of more than $250 million.

The upgraded T-90 tanks will have air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks' existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.


"DRDO had earlier attempted to mount air conditioning systems on the tanks, but were stopped by Russia, citing intellectual property rights," said Arun Sehgal, a retired Army brigadier general and defense analyst.

"The Russians were then asked to fit the air conditioning systems in the T-90 tanks, but the attempt was unsuccessful," Sehgal said. The intellectual property rights issue has since been resolved between India and Russia.

Another Army official said, "The thermal imaging system of the T-90 tanks were faulty from the initial stage."

Rahul Bhonsle, another retired Indian Army brigadier general and defense analyst, said, "A major part of the proposed upgrade will include providing an enhanced fire control potential because in the comparative trials between the Arjun and T-90 tanks last year, the Arjun had demonstrated a superior sighting system than the Russian tank."

The indigenous production of about 1,000 additional T-90s has been contracted, but production has not yet begun.


"The Russians have not provided full-scale [intellectual property rights] and are withholding some critical designs; thus, full-scale indigenization has been held up in Avadi," Bhonsle said.

An official of the Ordnance Factory Board, which administers the Avadi factory, said the Russians have supplied only 40 percent of the technology and nearly none since 2008. â– 
 

ersakthivel

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So all these faults now coming in HOT, And like many here in DFI & BR raised these issues in past are now conform by horse mouth ..

Bloody SCAM !
The upgraded T-90 tanks will have air-conditioning systems, which will be developed by India's Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). The tanks' existing armor protection systems, navigation gear, thermal imaging sights and fire control systems will be replaced.


These are not upgrades!!!!!!!!!!!!

these are fault rectification in a bungling product that is not fit to operate in indian summer desert theater.

it is wrong to call them upgrades and protect the people who purchased T-90 from probe.
 

Kunal Biswas

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X100 .................

these are fault rectification in a bungling product that is not fit to operate in indian summer desert theater.

It is wrong to call them upgrades and protect the people who purchased t-90 from probe.
 

Hari Sud

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See below in this paper, how much effort is being put by Indian Army to make T-90 war-worthy. Still they would refuse to accept the Arjun 1 & 2 which already have these improvements.. I think, change in Generals, Defence Secretary and Defence Minister is overdue. Sooner the better. We have to wait till May of this year, after elections.

Armor: T-90s Recover From Heat Stroke

Armor: T-90s Recover From Heat Stroke


March 17, 2014: India is upgrading 600 of its Russian T-90 tanks with new electronics (navigation systems, thermal sights and fire control computers) and air conditioning at a cost of about $42,000 per tank. The main reason for air conditioning in the tanks is not the crew, but the electronics. Russia was asked to develop and install air conditioning but were unable to create a system that could handle the Indian climate. That failure caused a lot of damage to the Russian and foreign made electronics in the Indian T-90s, thus the need for these changes.

One of the most obvious reasons for this upgrade was the heat related problems. Despite years of effort India was unable to get the thermal imaging systems to operate reliably on its T-90 tanks. Most of the thermal imagers on the T-90s were down at any one time. The problem was eventually found to be heat, and the 40 degree (Celsius/104 Fahrenheit) heat is unavoidable because it's a desert area where Indian T-90s have to be stationed. The Indians paid $2.6 million for each tank (half the price of the U.S. M-1). Some 20 percent of the cost was for the thermal sight, similar to the one that makes the U.S. M-1 tank so effective on the battlefield. Unfortunately, tests of the T-90 revealed that the thermal sight system could not handle the heat of Indian summers once the air conditioning failed. Much of the border between India and Pakistan is desert, and most of India's armored units are stationed there. The problem is that while the T-90 had Russian developed air conditioning (something new in Russian tanks), it cannot handle the 100+ degree heat in tropical India. The Russians were unable to develop a suitable upgrade because there was no room inside the tank to install a more powerful, but larger, cooling system. The American M-1 air conditioning has been able to handle extreme heat, so the Indians knew it could be done and eventually found a supplier who could build a system that worked and fit into the space available.

The T-90 went into low level production in 1993, but was too expensive for the Russian army to buy more than a few of them. India eventually became the biggest user. The T-90 is based on the T-72, but has composite armor (plus reactive armor) and better electronics. The 50 ton tank uses a 125mm smooth bore gun, and can also fire the 9M119M Refleks-M missile (to 4,000 meters) at ground or air (helicopter) targets. The tank carries 43 tank shells or missiles, 22 of them in the autoloader carousel. India agreed to buy 310 T-90s initially and is to have over 1,600 of them by the end of the decade, most of them assembled in India using Russian made parts.

One big reason India bought the T-90 is the 9M119 (AT-11) anti-tank missile, which weighs 23.6 kg (52 pounds), has a range of 100-4,000 meters and uses semi-automatic laser beam guidance system (the gunner keeps his sight on the target and the missile homes in on that.) Maximum time of flight is about 12 seconds. While the missile has a tandem warhead, making it useful against tanks with reactive armor, it can also be used against helicopters. The missile warhead can penetrate about 700mm of armor. The guidance system is quite accurate, hitting the target 80 percent of the time at maximum range in tests. The guidance system is also easy to use, making less well trained crews more effective. However, India insisted on building the missiles under license. This has created problems, as the Indian manufacturer has not been able to achieve sufficient quality control levels.

India deployed its first T-90 regiment (45 tanks) in May, 2002. The first T-90s were delivered to India in late November 2001. When they work, the T-90s are more than a match for anything the Pakistanis or Chinese have.

 

sayareakd

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One big reason India bought the T-90 is the 9M119 (AT-11) anti-tank missile, which weighs 23.6 kg (52 pounds), has a range of 100-4,000 meters and uses semi-automatic laser beam guidance system (the gunner keeps his sight on the target and the missile homes in on that.) Maximum time of flight is about 12 seconds. While the missile has a tandem warhead, making it useful against tanks with reactive armor, it can also be used against helicopters. The missile warhead can penetrate about 700mm of armor. The guidance system is quite accurate, hitting the target 80 percent of the time at maximum range in tests. The guidance system is also easy to use, making less well trained crews more effective. However, India insisted on building the missiles under license. This has created problems, as the Indian manufacturer has not been able to achieve sufficient quality control levels.
Al Khalid and T80UD has got same missile...............
 

ersakthivel

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See below in this paper, how much effort is being put by Indian Army to make T-90 war-worthy. Still they would refuse to accept the Arjun 1 & 2 which already have these improvements.. I think, change in Generals, Defence Secretary and Defence Minister is overdue. Sooner the better. We have to wait till May of this year, after elections.

Armor: T-90s Recover From Heat Stroke

Armor: T-90s Recover From Heat Stroke


March 17, 2014: India is upgrading 600 of its Russian T-90 tanks with new electronics (navigation systems, thermal sights and fire control computers) and air conditioning at a cost of about $42,000 per tank. The main reason for air conditioning in the tanks is not the crew, but the electronics. Russia was asked to develop and install air conditioning but were unable to create a system that could handle the Indian climate. That failure caused a lot of damage to the Russian and foreign made electronics in the Indian T-90s, thus the need for these changes.

One of the most obvious reasons for this upgrade was the heat related problems. Despite years of effort India was unable to get the thermal imaging systems to operate reliably on its T-90 tanks. Most of the thermal imagers on the T-90s were down at any one time. The problem was eventually found to be heat, and the 40 degree (Celsius/104 Fahrenheit) heat is unavoidable because it's a desert area where Indian T-90s have to be stationed. The Indians paid $2.6 million for each tank (half the price of the U.S. M-1). Some 20 percent of the cost was for the thermal sight, similar to the one that makes the U.S. M-1 tank so effective on the battlefield. Unfortunately, tests of the T-90 revealed that the thermal sight system could not handle the heat of Indian summers once the air conditioning failed. Much of the border between India and Pakistan is desert, and most of India's armored units are stationed there. The problem is that while the T-90 had Russian developed air conditioning (something new in Russian tanks), it cannot handle the 100+ degree heat in tropical India. The Russians were unable to develop a suitable upgrade because there was no room inside the tank to install a more powerful, but larger, cooling system. The American M-1 air conditioning has been able to handle extreme heat, so the Indians knew it could be done and eventually found a supplier who could build a system that worked and fit into the space available.

The T-90 went into low level production in 1993, but was too expensive for the Russian army to buy more than a few of them. India eventually became the biggest user. The T-90 is based on the T-72, but has composite armor (plus reactive armor) and better electronics. The 50 ton tank uses a 125mm smooth bore gun, and can also fire the 9M119M Refleks-M missile (to 4,000 meters) at ground or air (helicopter) targets. The tank carries 43 tank shells or missiles, 22 of them in the autoloader carousel. India agreed to buy 310 T-90s initially and is to have over 1,600 of them by the end of the decade, most of them assembled in India using Russian made parts.

One big reason India bought the T-90 is the 9M119 (AT-11) anti-tank missile, which weighs 23.6 kg (52 pounds), has a range of 100-4,000 meters and uses semi-automatic laser beam guidance system (the gunner keeps his sight on the target and the missile homes in on that.) Maximum time of flight is about 12 seconds. While the missile has a tandem warhead, making it useful against tanks with reactive armor, it can also be used against helicopters. The missile warhead can penetrate about 700mm of armor. The guidance system is quite accurate, hitting the target 80 percent of the time at maximum range in tests. The guidance system is also easy to use, making less well trained crews more effective. However, India insisted on building the missiles under license. This has created problems, as the Indian manufacturer has not been able to achieve sufficient quality control levels.

India deployed its first T-90 regiment (45 tanks) in May, 2002. The first T-90s were delivered to India in late November 2001. When they work, the T-90s are more than a match for anything the Pakistanis or Chinese have.

As per latest reports from IA indians are yet to find a suitable supplier for AC and asking DRDO do it.

It was reported that most of the imported reflek missiles too had problems.

And as it turns out the integration of FCS with new thermal systems has to be done by indians also.

So russians were neither able to develop a thermal sight that can withstand heat nor able to develop suitable AC to keep the temp low so that the thermal sights are working.

SO how can the army buy the tank T-90 while keeping major buy of Arjun mk-1, which had no such issues pending forever?
 
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Jagdish58

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As per latest reports from IA indians are yet to find a suitable supplier for AC and asking DRDO do it.

It was reported that most of the imported reflek missiles too had problems.

And as it turns out the integration of FCS with new thermal systems has to be done by indians also.

So russians were neither able to develop a thermal sight that can withstand heat nor able to develop suitable AC to keep the temp low so that the thermal sights are working.

SO how can the army buy the tank T-90 while keeping major buy of Arjun mk-1, which had no such issues pending forever?
Simple No kick backs can happen in Arjun:thumb: , And India can revive Tank Ex project with T-90 Chasis mounted( Instead of T-72) with modified Arjun Turret that will send further T-90 orders packing home if Army is sensible enough since they need tank lighter than Arjun ,just to show Russians we can do without their help Eg: Mig-27 upgrade was done without help of russians

Biggest Culprit in T-90 scam is Import minded Army , Arms lobby middle men,Lathargic leadership from MOD India & to some extent DRDO poject management :mad::frusty:
 
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