Arjun vs T90 MBT

TrueSpirit1

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

Most of the objections you r friends have raised are from reading articles written by journos with vested interests.
While you are right about the rest, but those guys are in infantry, participate in wargames which involves armoured corps (some have done courses at Armoured Corps Centre, Ahmednagar) & 1 of them is in EME corps currently in Secundarabad working on Arjun & completing his M.Tech. The EME guy who specializes in Arjun has very good things to say about Arjun & he is not even aware what the outside world has to say about it.

None of them follow any media especially, if it has anything to do with defense. In fact, they are just not interested in discussing these topics (they need all the fun they can get), so I usually get only bits & pieces about technology, but lots of personal experiences.

However, they are all united in one thing- their common hatred of INSAS rifle + admiration of AK47 & I cannot do anything about that because I have never handled that rifle :) Their common refrain is "Rifle achhi hogi but koi marta nahi hai isse". When I tell them it should be good rifle because that is what DFI says, I get laughs, derision & friendly abuses.
 

sayareakd

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

However, they are all united in one thing- their common hatred of INSAS rifle + admiration of AK47 & I cannot do anything about that because I have never handled that rifle :) Their common refrain is "Rifle achhi hogi but koi marta nahi hai isse". When I tell them it should be good rifle because that is what DFI says, I get laughs, derision & friendly abuses.
tell them Rifle is not meant to kill but to injure our enemy. If they want to kill them ask them to get mini gun.

back to topic pls.

Speaking of mini gun, mini gun would be great for Arjun RCWS.
 

ersakthivel

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

While you are right about the rest, but those guys are in infantry, participate in wargames which involves armoured corps (some have done courses at Armoured Corps Centre, Ahmednagar) & 1 of them is in EME corps currently in Secundarabad working on Arjun & completing his M.Tech. The EME guy who specializes in Arjun has very good things to say about Arjun & he is not even aware what the outside world has to say about it.

None of them follow any media especially, if it has anything to do with defense. In fact, they are just not interested in discussing these topics (they need all the fun they can get), so I usually get only bits & pieces about technology, but lots of personal experiences.

However, they are all united in one thing- their common hatred of INSAS rifle + admiration of AK47 & I cannot do anything about that because I have never handled that rifle :) Their common refrain is "Rifle achhi hogi but koi marta nahi hai isse". When I tell them it should be good rifle because that is what DFI says, I get laughs, derision & friendly abuses.
Unfortunately , the insas rifle was meant to injure the opposition soldier more than killing him,

Why?

If a soldier is killed the opposition army does not have to spare any attention on him.But if he is injured it imposes a big logistical cost on the opposition army to spare medical attention on him,

That is a new philosophy behind modern rifles , they are meant to impose cost and stretch the resources of enemy , in the short time, not meant to kill the enemy soldiers,

This I have read somewhere, only Kunal can clarify it.
 
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W.G.Ewald

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ersakthivel

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@ersakthivel, Smooth bore guns thought have fin-stabilized projectiles, e.g. , Armour Piercing Fin-stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS).

How do they compare with projectiles of rifled guns?

What are pros and cons of rifled and smoothbore guns? - The Firing Line - World of Tanks official forum
For fin stabilized projectiles which are the main anti tank shell of choice the rifled gun of Arjun functions in the same way as smooth bore. No major difference.

In Arjun APFSD round a slip ring obdurator is placed around APFSDS round to stop it from spinning while exiting from rifle barrel , and once sabots are discarded the fins take over stabilization role with no spin.

But for HESH rounds the rifled gun can give some range and accuracy advantage, eventhough the trials of LEO smooth bore has done better than Chally's rifled, the law of physics must hold some advantages. Some say with the advancement of FCS tech there is no difference.

But chally's FCS is not as developed as that os LEO latest as it does not have the same resources as LEO team.

HESH is of no use against modern spaces armor on new tanks but against buildings and other army vehicles and fortification that does not have spaced armor HESH is still deadly.
 
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arnabmit

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Kunal Biswas

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

OFF-TOPIC >


The logic stands right as stated & Its very effective in regular warfare ..

For Counter-Insurgency, The ammo is different now, The new ammo is meant for kill and effective against stubborn tangos ..

INSAS Ammunition >>

INSAS 5.56mm Rifle Use NATO standard FMJ Ammunition this Include SS109, M193 Also Indian Made 5.56mm, Details and Pictures following >>

=========================
=========================


5.56 X 45MM SS109 FMJ



Mass : 4.0 gm

==========================
==========================

5.56 X 45mm M193 FMJ



Mass : 3.56 gm

==========================
==========================

5.56 X 45mm OFB FMJ



Mass : 4.16 gm

--------------------------------------------->>

From Above all, OFB bullet is the heaviest and a hard hitter, Velocity is more or less same for all bullets..



All of the above Bullets manufactured in OFB and all of these bullets can be used in same regular issue Magazine of INSAS..

Unfortunately , the insas rifle was meant to injure the opposition soldier more than killing him,

Why?

If a soldier is killed the opposition army does not have to spare any attention on him.But if he is injured it imposes a big logistical cost on the opposition army to spare medical attention on him,

That is a new philosophy behind modern rifles , they are meant to impose cost and stretch the resources of enemy , in the short time, not meant to kill the enemy soldiers,

This I have read somewhere, only Kunal can clarify it.
 

LaVictoireEstLaVie

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Apologies for the interruption, but after 100+ pages , i just want to know what the overall "better" vehicle is , in terms of firepower, mobility and protection. The T-90S or the Arjun Mk1 (or Mk2) Please explain your answer. Thank you ! :thumb:
 

JBH22

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Apologies for the interruption, but after 100+ pages , i just want to know what the overall "better" vehicle is , in terms of firepower, mobility and protection. The T-90S or the Arjun Mk1 (or Mk2) Please explain your answer. Thank you ! :thumb:
That my friend is the question that haunts many of us.

anyways in the end Arjun is not inducted in huge numbers but army relies on T-90S.

Numbers speak for themselves.
 

sayareakd

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Apologies for the interruption, but after 100+ pages , i just want to know what the overall "better" vehicle is , in terms of firepower, mobility and protection. The T-90S or the Arjun Mk1 (or Mk2) Please explain your answer. Thank you ! :thumb:
IA was saying T90S was superior in all aspects, DRDO was saying Arjun, and then GOI conducted trial of T90S and Arjun MK1. IA again cheated with having 14 of each tanks with T90S having best tank crews from whole of IA and surprise results.

IA never said anything after that.........................:rofl:

then DGMF who is head of IA for tanks said we should go for FMBT from Russia.


He got mud in his face when Russia during his tenure as DGMF, closed the FMBT programme..........:rofl:

Then very quietly IA got 1800 T90S tank...........:frusty:

Long live black money.............. my senior once said it has great power, sarkari paisa cant fight with it...........:frusty:
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Arjun MK1 vs T-90 in trail conducted by Indian Army, Proved Arjun superior in preform-ace, Let it be firing or mobility ..

Arjun MK2 is an updated version of Arjun MK1 also T-90 in Indian Army ..

Apologies for the interruption, but after 100+ pages , i just want to know what the overall "better" vehicle is , in terms of firepower, mobility and protection. The T-90S or the Arjun Mk1 (or Mk2) Please explain your answer. Thank you ! :thumb:
Numbers speak for themselves.
 

Austin

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Modernisation of the defence forces is critical to maintain stability in the subcontinent

Arms and the Men

Modernisation of the defence forces is critical to maintain stability in the subcontinent

By Lt Gen Dalip Bhardwaj (Retd)
(The writer is former Director General Mechanised Forces)
Current Status-Armour
The current holding of tanks exceed 3000 comprising the T-72M1 which is the mainstay of the Armoured Corps, a number of regiments of the state-of-the-art T-90S and the indigenous Arjun tanks. An AFV once inducted is expected to be in service for 34 years before being declared obsolete. Hence, after a tank has been in service for a decade, a comprehensive modernisation package is initiated which is expected to be implemented within a span of five years, so as to ensure that the tank holds its own in the battlefield for the balance second half of its life in service.

As a plethora of vendors are involved in modernising various sub-systems, the package is never introduced as a whole, hence, slippages occur and the tank is not available to the user for protracted periods. Ideally, the modernisation package must be implemented when the tank is withdrawn for its mid-life overhaul, however, this is only on paper as the schedule of overhaul and the modernisation package never coincide leading to a disjointed effort and wasteful expenditure.

Tank T-72 M1:
The tank was inducted into service in the early Eighties and after three decades the tanks issued to the first few regiments are being withdrawn from service without any major modernisation scheme being implemented. The modernisation programme includes:

"¢ Mobility: Uprating the engine to 1000 HP to ensure that the power to weight ratio is maintained despite having added additional weight. Trials for a suitable power pack were initiated a decade ago without success. The most suitable choice is the engine of the T-90 tank duly modified which would also ensure commonality of parts and reduction of the logistic chain.

"¢ Firepower: The most critical scheme is removal of night blindness by introducing the thermal imaging sight and enhancing its accuracy by fitting a modern fire control system. As regards night blindness, the older tanks were to be fitted with a thermal imaging stand alone sight (TISAS) and the newer tanks with a full solution fire control system (TIFCS).

Whereas the TISAS programme has been successfully implemented, the delay has been in introducing the TIFCS. The plan to adopt the T-90 TIFCS was initiated which should have been the ideal solution, however due to issues of non-compliance of electro-magnetic interference/compatibility (EMI/EMC) the project was delayed. It is expected that both systems will be introduced by the end of 2014.

"¢ Protection: To give added protection two projects were initiated. First was the fitment of the explosive reactive armour (ERA) panels against chemical energy ammunition attack and second was the more ambitious Active Protection System (APS). Whereas the ERA panels are cleared and fitment is in progress, the APS which was included later will take time to be implemented due to its complexity and cost.

Tank T-90S: The T-90S tank was first shown in Russia in 1993 and was procured by India in 2002. A total of 657 tanks were imported from Russia with a contract to manufacture 1000 tanks at HVF Avadi. Despite being a tank of recent origin, an upgraded package has already been formalised and would be implemented within the next three-five years. Notwithstanding, by the end of the decade at least 25 Armoured Regiment would be equipped with this state-of-the-art tank. The modernisation projects include:-

"¢ Firepower:
The TIFCS has been given dual control with the Commander being able to exercise the same functions as the gunner. The 12.7 mm AD machine gun to be upgraded to a dual axis stabilised remote controlled weapon system. To engage moving targets more effectively, an automatic target tracker (ATT) needs to be fitted. The effectiveness of the Invar missile has to be enhanced to penetrate up to 1000 mm armour thickness.

"¢ Protection: The greatest benefit would be the fitment of the APS to defeat both the CE and KE ammunition. In addition, the ERA panels are to be upgraded to enhance protection by 250 mm, thereby even degrading a KE projectile to a very large extent.

"¢ Miscellaneous: To ensure that electronics in the tank function at peak efficiency even during the peak summer temperatures, an environment control system will be fitted. In addition to ensure that the life of the main engine is conserved an auxiliary power unit to be fitted. For better situational awareness, a battlefield management system will be fitted supported by a software defined radio (SDR).

With the implementation of the above modernisation package, hopefully, within the next three-five years the T-90S will dominate the battlefield till 2030-35.

Arjun MK II:
After having inducted 124 Arjun MK I tanks in two armoured regiment, the additional order will be for Arjun MK II tanks. The Arjun MK II would be a quantum jump as regards its capability and of the 89 modifications recommended, most of the minor upgrades have been completed, however trials are currently ongoing as regards firing of the LAHAT missile from the gun barrel as also enhancing the power of the engine to cater for the additional weight of the tank due to fitment of ERA panels and the mine ploughs.

Current Status

Mechanised Infantry: The BMP-2 was the most advanced infantry combat vehicle when inducted into service and despite being in service for more than four decades, it has retained its superiority in the battlefield. A comprehensive package was designed for the BMP-2M (modernised) and many of the smaller upgrades have been installed, however the main upgrades still pending are:

"¢ Mobility: With an increase in the weight the power pack was planned to be enhanced from 280 HP to 360 HP by the indigenous industry. Unfortunately, no suitable engine has yet been cleared.

"¢ Firepower: A TIFCS was to be installed, however to date only a night sight to fire the Konkurs missile has been fitted. The automatic grenade launcher and the twin missile launcher have not yet cleared trials.

"¢ Protection:
To enhance its protection the ERA panels were to be developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) which are yet to be cleared by the users.

FICV:
The Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) was cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) as a 'Make' project to the Indian industry in 2010. It was to be a showcase project wherein the private sector would commence to play a major role in the design, development and manufacture of defence equipment.

However, despite three years of planning and negotiation by the initial four vendors (Tata, Mahindra, Larsen and Toubro and Ordnance Factory Board) the MoD has not been able to shortlist them to the final two players who are to be funded to design and develop 10 prototypes within five years. With the delay in selection of the final vendors the entire project has slipped and it is unlikely to fructify before 2018-19. Hence, the modernisation of the BMP-2 M needs a greater impetus as it would have to be retained in service beyond the anticipated deadline.

Future Trends

FMBT: The GSQR for the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT) has been finalised and the DRDO was co-opted during the formulation exercise. With the experience gained in the design and development of the Arjun tank, this project should be completed by the DRDO in a quicker timeframe.

Wheeled Vehicles: As mentioned earlier in the article, there is an urgent need to introduce wheeled armoured fighting vehicles in service. In fact, what is required is a family of wheeled vehicles based on a common chassis for an ICV, Command Post, AD Weapon system, Light Tank, logistic vehicle etc. These vehicles would play a major role in the high altitude and mountainous areas, riverine and urban terrain, OOAC operations and equipping the Air Assault Division.

Conclusion

There have been large slippages in the modernisation of the mechanised forces and the onus lies on all stakeholders to expedite the process. The time has now come to put in a more concerted effort in finalising the modernisation projects in a time-bound manner.
 

sayareakd

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sayareakd

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T90S
To engage moving targets more effectively, an automatic target tracker (ATT) needs to be fitted.
To ensure that electronics in the tank function at peak efficiency even during the peak summer temperatures, an environment control system will be fitted. In addition to ensure that the life of the main engine is conserved an auxiliary power unit to be fitted. For better situational awareness, a battlefield management system will be fitted supported by a software defined radio (SDR).
so T90s had these shortcoming for all these years.
 

ersakthivel

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he used to hate Arjun most, plus his lollipop of FMBT based on Russian project was cancelled.
It was during his tenure that Arjun mk-1 despite being clearly superior to the T-90 was kept firmly rooted to AVADI parking lot,

while T-90s with all contentious problems like Electronic malfunctioning, crew fainting in desert heat and malfunctioning night vision device was continuously imported in thousands with no TOT for armor and gun barrel tech without even conducting any trial in indian desert conditions.

And I think it was after his retirement I think the DGMF finally saw the folly of four men 50 ton MBT with world class safety future, and accepted that future evolution of ARJUN will be india's FMBT
 
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sayareakd

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It was during his tenure that Arjun mk-1 despite being clearly superior to the T-90 was kept firmly rooted to AVADI parking lot,

while T-90s with all contentious problems like Electronic malfunctioning, crew fainting in desert heat and malfunctioning night vision device was continuously imported in thousands with no TOT for armor and gun barrel tech without even conducting any trial in indian desert conditions.

And I think it was after his retirement I think the DGMF finally saw the folly of four men 50 ton MBT with world class safety future, and accepted that future evolution of ARJUN will be india's FMBT
I wish we can test t90 s with him inside taking hit from arjun tank. He was confident. When Arjun won/T90s failed he moved to FMBT.
 

ersakthivel

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I wish we can test t90 s with him inside taking hit from arjun tank. He was confident. When Arjun won/T90s failed he moved to FMBT.
No army in the world will keep arjun mk-1 numbers to 124 while importing thousands of T-90 tanks which don't work in indian summer heat, and then looking for fixes which are still not found on the desert heat issue

It is a matter that needs to be investigated in future,
 

Kunal Biswas

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Above all, Its Armour, Gun and Majority of electronics are from Arjun Project spin off ..

No army in the world will keep arjun mk-1 numbers to 124 while importing thousands of T-90 tanks which don't work in indian summer heat, and then looking for fixes which are still not found on the desert heat issue

It is a matter that needs to be investigated in future,
 

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