Arjun vs T90 MBT

[sayareakd]

Wonder what will happen to T90s cost if APU is added, then AC, then rework on electronics and BMS.

 

[Austin]

Not just T-90 but T-72 is also going through a similar upgrade perhaps more comprehensive if you add the new 1000 hp engine and upgunning with T-90 Guns , although BMS may not be part of T-72 upgrade.

Details of T-72 and T-90 upgrade is officially described by DGMF in the interview linked below

SP's Land Forces - Lt General D.S. Siddhu, Director General, Mechanised Forces, Indian Army

 

[Austin]

As per force

No army in the world will keep arjun mk-1 numbers to 124 while importing thousands of T-90 tanks which don't work in indian summer heat, and then looking for fixes which are still not found on the desert heat issue

It is a matter that needs to be investigated in future,

Well not just that they have also added additional 234 T-90's over original order as per FORCE

The ongoing modernisation of the armed forces offer unprecedented opportunities for indigenisation

Armour
The Indian Army's Armoured Corps has also been affected by the slowdown in the economy that has impacted the modernisation drive to replace/upgrade its massive tank fleet. This means that armoured regiments will have to make do with their older tanks which suffer from night blindness, lack modern fire control systems and have underpowered power packs.

The Indian Army will continue to field close to 3,000 upgraded T-72 and T-90 MBTs over the next two decades, with the T-90s serving till 2030 and beyond. Almost half of the 1,657 T-90 tanks planned have already been inducted as of last year. The Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) also approved the manufacture of an additional 235 T-90S tanks worth almost Rs 6,000 crore last year. The Indian Army is now said to have only 800 T-90 tanks in service out of a planned total of 1,657 (plus 235 from the latest order).

In August last year, Bharat Dynamic Limited (BDL), Hyderabad, signed a contract for supplying Invar Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGM) to the Indian Army valued at Rs 3,000 crore. Deliveries are expected to be completed by 2018 and BDL has been manufacturing these missiles under technical collaboration with M/s Rosoboronexport of Russia. The T-90 is capable of firing the Invar which is a laser beam rider ATGM. It has a range of five km and is capable of destroying enemy tanks fitted with Explosive Reactive Armour (ERA) protection. There are also plans for the license manufacture and delivery of advanced 3UBK20 (Mango) tank ammunition. All 16,000 rounds from a 2010 order for Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS) ammunition would have been delivered by now.

The shortage of ammunition for the T-72 and T-90 tanks has been an area of concern for quite a while now as indigenous efforts to produce state-of-the-art ammunition have not been very successful. The ageing T-72 tanks have experienced bursting tank barrels, with over 200 such cases having been reported last year according to reports in the media. Reports now suggest that the T-72s will have their main gun barrels replaced with that of the T-90 and approximately 800 T-90 barrels are likely to be procured in the near future. Facilities for overhaul of Tank T-72 were established in 1994 at HVF Avadi and in order to enhance the annual overhaul capacity, parallel facilities for overhaul were also created at 505 Army Base Workshop in 2005.

The Arjun Mark-II MBT is undergoing user trials and if all goes well, production orders should be placed next year. As per plans, at present orders for 118 Arjun Mark-IIs have been placed and HVF Avadi would be in a position to deliver the first tank 30 months after the order is placed. With a production rate of 30 tanks a year, the entire order would be completed by 2021 (realistically, this is likely to slip by a few years). Deliveries for 124 Arjun Mark-I tanks are now complete and 43rd armoured regiment at Jaisalmer and 75th armoured regiment have 45 tanks each. No further orders are expected for the Mark-I, which cost Rs 20 crore a piece. The cost for each Arjun Mark-II is estimated at around Rs 34-37 crore.

Major improvements featured on MBT Arjun MK II over MK I
1 To provide Missile Firing Capability using LAHAT missile and Add-on Laser Target designator
2 Commander's Panoramic Sight with Thermal Imager will provide day and night surveillance with third generation thermal Imager
3 Ten round containerized bin for enhanced crew protection
4 Roof Mounted Driver's Seat (RMDS) that provides protection for driver against mine blast
5 Uncooled Thermal Imager (Driver's Night Sight) that facilitates night driving through sight with Thermal Imager
6 Incorporation of Mine plough with magnetic signature duplicator. The Magnetic Signature duplicator will detonate magnetically influenced mine ahead to tank by projecting magnetic image of tank
7 Incorporation of Explosive Reactive Armour panels that provide protection against tandem warheads and kinetic energy projectiles.
8 Remote firing of Air Defence gun (360 degrees) by the loader with hatch closed
9 Effective Alternate to Muzzle Reference System (MRS)
10 Advanced Land Navigation System that provides for navigation using GPS and inertial navigation
11 Automatic Target Tracking (ATT) in Gunner's Main Sight that aids the gunner to automatically track the target enhancing accuracy and provides for ease of engagement
12 Advanced Running Gear System that caters for increased weight of ARJUN MBT MK II (about 66 tons)
13 New track with increased horn height to cater for increased weight of ARJUN MBT MK II (about 66 tons)
14 New final drive with increased reduction ratio that enhances tractive effort and caters for increased weight with added benefits
15 Laser Warning Countermeasure System enables identification threats and taking evasive action using smoke Grenade Discharger
16 New types of ammunition with increased penetration cater for the current threat spectrum
17 Resin based Combustible Case Cartridge for ammunition
18 It provides effective camouflage against detection through thermal imager


Since 2012, the Indian Army has also been seeking to upgrade its Infantry Combat Vehicles from BMP-2/2K to BMP-2M along with a new power pack for an estimated cost of Rs 8,000 crore (USD 1.3 billion). The BMP-2 is the main combat vehicle used by mechanised infantry units of the Indian Army.

As per the Request for Information (RFI) that has been released by the army "BMP-2M is envisaged to have the same physical specifications as BMP-2/2K with minor changes. The thrust of upgrades will be to provide better observation and surveillance, night-fighting capability, fire control system, improved ATGM system and 30mm Automatic Grenade Launcher (AGL) to provide capability to engage dead ground to support assault of dismounted troops. The changes should be without replacement of existing turret, with minimum cutting of armour." Approximately 1,400 ICVs are expected to be upgraded.

The army is also looking for a 'new power pack with a minimum 360 HP engine including running gear and suspension' for its BMP-2/2Ks. Presently, they are fitted with indigenised UTD-20 engines. According to the army, the UTD-20 engine has a power output of 285 (±15) which is inadequate for BMP-2/2K as it, affects 'cross country mobility, floatation and gradient negotiating capability' and is unable to take any add-ons. The new engine with running gear and suspension will offer better mobility, acceleration and gradability (ability to climb slopes). Requirements as per the RFI call for power-pack life expectancy of 8,000 km/800 hr and ability to operate at an altitude of 14,000 feet with adequate power to negotiate obstacles, among others.

 

[ersakthivel]

As per force



Well not just that they have also added additional 234 T-90's over original order as per FORCE

They were supposed to operate in "himalayan theaters"!!!! ,

the T-90 MS or something else,

because cold climate suits them(of course with no trials as usual!!!)

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/11/army-scuttles-arjun-trials-to-push.html

 

[Austin]

Right now its not certain if its T-90MS or the T-90 Upgrade we are proposing.

I have not heard from any Russian or International media source stating T-90MS is being ordered , since we Lic manuf T-90S most likely these are upgraded Lic built model with the upgrade as the DGMF proposed in the interview

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Most likely the new batch of these T-90S will replace the first batch purchased back in early days ..

 

[Austin]

Most likely the new batch of these T-90S will replace the first batch purchased back in early days ..

More likely these will be upgraded , We have yet to replace the T-72 that are like 15 years older then the oldest T-90 and are planning to upgrade the T-72

Although its intriguing why they cant order say more Arjun Mk1 instead of upgrading 1000 odd T-72 with comprehensive upgrade.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Presently T-90S are not responsible for replacing anyone other than themselves, Older once will be moved to storage ..

Arjun MK1 have replaced T-72 & T55 before, MK2 will be replacing more of these T-72 ..

Rest of T-72 will go through upgrade, And the one are replaced will go to storage and may be canabalised for other T-72 ..

Army is putting money on Arjun MK3 aka FMBT, Not on Arjun MK1 or MK2 and T-90S/M ..

More likely these will be upgraded , We have yet to replace the T-72 that are like 15 years older then the oldest T-90 and are planning to upgrade the T-72

Although its intriguing why they cant order say more Arjun Mk1 instead of upgrading 1000 odd T-72 with comprehensive upgrade.

 

[Austin]

Here are the procurement programs of IA

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bKsGpy2T56s/Uv_AXwF3aUI/AAAAAAAAGyk/9xkYZna1zDE/s1600/P-1.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NVNdxgBgrOk/Uv_AdtwDHdI/AAAAAAAAGys/-NyudLN3R9Q/s1600/P-2.jpg

As per plans around 1600 T-72 would remain in fleet and these will be the DRDO CIA upgrade and Comprehensive Upgrade , 600 CIA upgrade already done and in service

 

[sayareakd]

Right now its not certain if its T-90MS or the T-90 Upgrade we are proposing.

I have not heard from any Russian or International media source stating T-90MS is being ordered , since we Lic manuf T-90S most likely these are upgraded Lic built model with the upgrade as the DGMF proposed in the interview

OFB should upgrade the T90s based on Arjun MK-2.

 

[Austin]

DGMF already has laid path for T-90 upgrade and you will find lot of similarities or common components in T-72/Arjun/T-90 upgrade where ever possible .....and yes they would use indiginous system as much as possible ....saves on forex and generates job/revenues for local companies.

 

[Austin]

CAG report reveals T-90 tanks are vulnerable to heat 'because they don't have air conditioning'

The Russian T-90 tanks bought by India were rendered vulnerable as components showed signs of degradation under extreme heat as they were bought without air conditioners, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) said in its latest report.

The CAG noted that the tanks were procured without the ACs, ignoring the recommendation of the field trial teams.

Most of these tanks are deployed in the Rajasthan desert and it was felt that air conditioners were not required as Indian commanders preferred to operate their vehicles with open cupolas.

Some of the tanks were acquired directly from Russia, while the rest are being licensed-produced in the country.

The army will eventually have more than 1,500 of these tanks.

Even those tanks considered to be most advanced, which are equipped with sophisticated state-of-theart systems being produced in the country, do not have air conditioners.

It was found that key systems like the missile-firing mechanism and thermal sights had deteriorated due to prolonged exposure to heat and dust, the CAG noted in its report.

After encountering the problems in day-to-day operations, the Army changed its mind and the process to buy ACs to be fitted in the tanks was initiated.

It has been more than 10 years since the Defence Ministry began the process to procure the ACs separately in 2002, but they are yet to make any purchase, the CAG found.

The first lot of 310 tanks was bought for Rs 4,086.90 crore. Another 1,000 were to be licenced-produced in India. The plan to buy 1,657 ACs at an approximate cost of Rs 597 crore was approved only in June 2009.

The CAG report noted that as on October 2013, further action on the procurement of ACs for all the 1,657 tanks was still awaited.

Defending its decision to buy non-AC tanks, the Defence Ministry claimed that trials of three tanks showed no detrimental effect of prolonged exposure to heat or dust. The problem came to light only after the tanks were used in operational conditions.

But the CAG has contested the argument claiming that overheating of components was also highlighted during field trials.

However, the Army does not seem to have learnt its lessons as ACs were not listed as a requirement even in the indigenously developed main battle tank Arjun. The DRDO scientists said the Army had not listed it as a necessary requirement.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

IA does not concern abt AC but environment control systems which helps to keep tanks electronics cool or hot depend upon the environment where it operates, Arjun MK1 has ECS,

But T-90 which were purchased first than mass scam followed which ignored all the recommendations and made forces inductions of T-90 in mass, Now more problem will come up, Including spare part issues ..

 

[Austin]

^^ IF we just cut the rhetoric and crystal ball gazing.

Indian Army needs AC for all its Tanks and IFV fleet to prevent crew fatigue and better effeciency of electronics at high temperature.

For some strange reason IA thinks not having AC in Tank is akin to being a man ......its like saying driving a Car with your windows closed and sweating from all sides shows how macho one is.

 

[ersakthivel]

^^ IF we just cut the rhetoric and crystal ball gazing.

Indian Army needs AC for all its Tanks and IFV fleet to prevent crew fatigue and better effeciency of electronics at high temperature.

For some strange reason IA thinks not having AC in Tank is akin to being a man ......its like saying driving a Car with your windows closed and sweating from all sides shows how macho one is.

For 50 years till T-90 came indian tanks were not equipped with AC.

In Arjun a requirement of AC was not raised,

What compounds the problem further is there is no space for AC in the already cramped compartment of T-90 with shells lying on the floor,

SO the only solution that was offered before that was to fit it outside the tank , which will be knocked out by sharpnel from any blast outside the tank rendering all the electronics in the tank useless.

 

[ersakthivel]

Govt buys non-AC tanks, draws CAG fire - The Times of India

NEW DELHI: India's main-battle tanks, the Russian-origin T-90S, are without any airconditioning. Apart from crew discomfort, this is "degrading" the sophisticated fire-control systems, thermal-imaging sights and missile firing mechanisms of the tanks due to their prolonged exposure to heat and dust conditions.

The latest CAG report, tabled in Parliament on Tuesday, has fired a salvo at the defence ministry and the Army for signing deals worth Rs 9,083 crore with Russia for 657 T-90S tanks, and concluding another Rs 330 crore contract for transfer of technology to indigenously produce another such 1,000 tanks at the Avadi Heavy Vehicles Factory, without providing for the critical air-conditioners.

"Ignoring the recommendations of the trial team (which tested the tanks in Russia in 1999), the MoD procured the tanks in 2001 and 2007 without ACs, rendering the fleet vulnerable to degradation of sensitive components," said CAG.

The T-90S fleet, as reported by TOI earlier, has grappled with glitches in its missile and thermal imaging systems right since its induction after India first ordered 310 of these tanks for over Rs 4,087 crore under a February 2001 contract with Russia.

With the next order for 347 tanks in November 2007 and the indigenously-produced tanks also beginning to roll out subsequently, the Army has till now inducted about 800 such tanks. All are without ACs despite the MoD and Army belatedly realizing the desperate need for them.

"The tanks are basically meant for the western sector with Pakistan. Temperatures in the Thar desert can soar to even 50 degree Celsius. The tank commanders usually keep the tank cupola or hatch open," said an officer.

In June 2009, the AK Antony-led defence acquisitions council had approved the acquisition of 1,657 ACs to equip all the tanks at a cost of Rs 597 crore. But the project is yet to materialize.

India, incidentally, had gone in for the T-90S tanks since Pakistan was inducting T-80UD tanks from Ukraine as well as 'Al Khalid' MBTs developed with China's help, and the indigenous Arjun tanks were then nowhere on the horizon.

Now CAG too is showing the defects of T-90 Vs the customization of Arjun to indian conditions.

 

[ersakthivel]

CAG report reveals T-90 tanks are vulnerable to heat 'because they don't have air conditioning'

Arjun does not need it as it has enough space and ventilation for the functioning of the electronics without AC.

Arjun is built with indian operating conditions in mind and T-90 was not.

no amount of tinkering will do.

 

[Austin]

For 50 years till T-90 came indian tanks were not equipped with AC.

In Arjun a requirement of AC was not raised,

What compounds the problem further is there is no space for AC in the already cramped compartment of T-90 with shells lying on the floor,

SO the only solution that was offered before that was to fit it outside the tank , which will be knocked out by sharpnel from any blast outside the tank rendering all the electronics in the tank useless.

An AC requirement was never raised for any tank as the report said but that does not mean the crew inside dont feel hot or wont be much fatigue of they use an AC.

We need AC for IFV like BMP or the new one we are developing and for all our tank fleet for the crews ...... dont we have AC in our cars so that we are more comfortable driving ? If the electronic perform better due to AC all the more better , most modern electronics need cooling any ways even ones that are build to MIL std ...reason why you see AC on most western tanks and even on many exported T-90 tanks

The sensitive optics on top of tank and the glass and other stuff with TI are more vulnerable to shrapnel than the AC itself .

Ofcourse IA can still act macho and ignore the recommendations pending since 2002 and run it without AC if they wish ......the situation in T-72 will be no better either or BMP-2

 

[ersakthivel]

An AC requirement was never raised for any tank as the report said but that does not mean the crew inside dont feel hot or wont be much fatigue of they use an AC.

We need AC for IFV like BMP or the new one we are developing and for all our tank fleet for the crews ...... dont we have AC in our cars so that we are more comfortable driving ? If the electronic perform better due to AC all the more better , most modern electronics need cooling any ways even ones that are build to MIL std ...reason why you see AC on most western tanks and even on many exported T-90 tanks

The sensitive optics on top of tank and the glass and other stuff with TI are more vulnerable to shrapnel than the AC itself .

Ofcourse IA can still act macho and ignore the recommendations pending since 2002 and run it without AC if they wish ......the situation in T-72 will be no better either or BMP-2

There are no questions on AC as a comfort factor,

Western tanks have AC and secure space for the compressor right from the design phase,

.T-90 was not built from ground up with AC for troop comfort or electronics functioning as the basic motive. if it is so no one would question it.but the important point here is that there is no space to fit AC in a secure manner in T-90.

Thats why IA is grappling with this issue.

What the CAG has pointed out is the t-90 was bought with no proper trials for its suitablity in desert summer conditions and over ridding the trial team's recommendation, which is a grave mistake in procurement.

no one would have questioned IA if they bought a few T-90s tested them to death in desert like Arjun and asked the ruaaisans to fit AC in a secure manner to let electronics function and save crew,

If all the T-90s from russia arrived with factory fitted certified and secure Acs why would CAG point out this as flaw?

in a multi million dollar tank the price of AC is not going to be a a significant cost factor.

 

[Austin]

From what I know the Russian T-90 have AC ( and heater ) even though cold is a way of life for them .....the exported Algerian T-90 certainly have AC they operate in Desert as we do ,, Having as AC these days on any military platform is not considered a luxury but a necessity .....Even if you have extreme cold climate you still need a heater in the tank.

So I am not sure why Army is dilly dallying on fitting an AC ....I am sure the general staff work in AC offices and Homes and dont experience 55 * C in both places.

To add to that the Army comes with come sky high specs for AC as both the Israel and Russian AC have failed in trials.

Our procurement system is screwed up right from PM to MOD to Defence Forces level .......the fact we manage to procure something every 10 years is itself a miracle and deserves a mention in Guinness Book of Record.