Arjun vs T90 MBT

[The Last Stand]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Long back i have read about the Gun made by ARDE for T-90S, By specs it was more of a Arjun gun in smooth-bore and in 125mm..

No mention of max chamber pressure but efc was same as Arjun`s that is 500rnds..

The source please. I wouldn't mind if you can provide it even tomorrow.

 

[The Last Stand]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

My point was only for Arjun, That under 612mpa chamber pressure it can fire many modern western / eastern AP rounds, The ammo is not a permanent factor..

Also, 612,mpa is recommended pressure above that any round expand will eat away the barrel quickly, Same for others..

Wrong. Proof pressure is proof pressure. Not all parts of the barrel are autofrettaged to more than 612 mpa. APFSDS rounds of the West fire at 520-570 mpa at 15/22 degree Celsius. At 50-60 degrees like in Thar desert, the value would be much higher. The round could fire at 5-10% more mpa, @methos can help on this.

Rounds with even more than 500 mpa will destroy the barrel of the ARDE gun quickly. The Rh 120 L/44 has a proof pressure of 706 mpa. The DM-53 fired at some 500 mpa. But at higher temperature it would fire at higher chamber pressure. Even though the round fires at a somewhat low chamber pressure, it wore out the L/44 much quicker than the old rounds.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

It should be 425mm@2000ms, My bad for putting 470mm..

When we were doing 425 or 400 and production was on, the Army decided that we should go for a higher penetration capability, 600 mm, and they wanted to do it urgently because this was a post-Kargil requirement. So they went for import. And that import has unfortunately not fructified due to various reasons. Now because we realise that there is going to be a gap, we have already upgraded this (FSAPDS) to 500.

Source : ‘We have not understated the range of Agni V. We as a nation don’t have to hide anything with respect to our capabilities’ - Indian Express

What makes we Indians not certified about our AP penetration ?

------------------------------

MK-2 >>

@Kunal Biswas, I ask the same question they ask you.

Where is the source that says penetration is 470 mm? And any source for how MK-2's ammunition will be better? I'd suggest we wait till DefExpo 2014 till we make such conclusions.

Rosoboronexport is supposed to offer 3BM44M according to Fofanov, and it is a modern round for T-90 with penetration in excess of 650 mm. And KEW-A2 and KEW-A3 which are 120 mm export rounds have penetration in excess of 660 mm. And these values are for certified penetration. Not average.

==================
==================


Indigenisation of 125mm t-90 ordnance

1 No. indigenous T-90 barrel is under assembly with OEM breech mechanism. It is proposed to subject this barrel to life cycle test (250 rounds) for ascertaining the suitability of indigenous steel. The article 2A46M will be offered for life cycle test at PXE Balasore by end of July 2006. Further 2 Nos of T-90 ordnance will be produced with GOST specification steel during 2006-07.

125MM MAPLE Barrel ((MATERIAL ADDED AUTOFRETTAGE PROCESS LEADING TO ELASTIC RELEASE)
This barrel is offered as alternative to 125mm SB T-72 barrel. Combining the benefits of auto-frettaged and shrink fit designs, it offers various advantages over OEM T-72 barrel.
These include higher maximum safe pressure (800 MPA as compared to 670 MPA in
T-72 barrel), higher fatigue life of barrel (1700 EFC as compared to 250 EFC for T-72 barrel).
It is planned to manufacture and supply 2 Nos. of these barrels by Sept 2006 for trial and evaluation.

STATUS :
2 barrels successfully proven and issued to imi israel for fsapds propellant development. 2 more barrels are expected to be ready by sept 2006 for user trial at ACCC&S Ahmednagar.

http://ofbindia.gov.in/units/index.p...e=my_3&lang=en

--------------------------------------

^^ The link is too old and non existing now, But the DATA is still exist..

The source please. I wouldn't mind if you can provide it even tomorrow.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

When it is specified the Barrel are MAPLE, Needless to say anything else..

You are assuming facts wrongly, Read the specs..

Under proof pressure the barrel tear as per specs that is EFC is 500, Official, You can at least Google that, Arjun is design as per need Indian need, its ammo / barrel were tested in Thar and Punjab area before induction, test fire held at Pokran firing ranges..

So there is no harm as you think would do to the barrel, You can check the specs of ammo you talk about that there needed chamber pressure is 590mpa max..

Wrong. Proof pressure is proof pressure. Not all parts of the barrel are autofrettaged to more than 612 mpa. APFSDS rounds of the West fire at 520-570 mpa at 15/22 degree Celsius. At 50-60 degrees like in Thar desert, the value would be much higher. The round could fire at 5-10% more mpa, @methos can help on this.

Rounds with even more than 500 mpa will destroy the barrel of the ARDE gun quickly.

 

[nirranj]

You wish the Pakistanies to reach Kurukshetra ?
Hell of a wish !

Sir, You should have taken some time to grasp the real meaning of "Hope the legend of Arjun prevails after 14 years of vanvaas and emerges victorious in the kurukshetra against multiple adversaries..."

I mean that Like in Maha Baharata Arjun is fighting enemies from within, ie, Indian Army's negligence of this marvelous tank and the OFB's inability to create a logistics base... I mean Vanvas of 14 years because this tank is being kept out by the Army for the past 12 years (since It participated in the Republic day parade of 2001) and we have to wait for another two years before MK2 is cleared for mass production (If Army atleast considers equipping them in the western sector)....

Here Kurukshetra is the comparative trial grounds and the Army's decision making rooms...

 

[Dejawolf]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

When it is specified the Barrel are MAPLE, Needless to say anything else..

You are assuming facts wrongly, Read the specs..

Under proof pressure the barrel tear as per specs that is EFC is 500, Official, You can at least Google that, Arjun is design as per need Indian need, its ammo / barrel were tested in Thar and Punjab area before induction, test fire held at Pokran firing ranges..

So there is no harm as you think would do to the barrel, You can check the specs of ammo you talk about that there needed chamber pressure is 590mpa max..

max chamber pressure of the M256/RH 120 gun is 630 mpa M829 and 829A1 are fired at 560 mpa, A2 at 565 mpa.

and those 470 figures you listed... those rounds are 125mm rounds...

for comparison with russian 125mm guns:

2A46 has chamber pressure of 510 Mpa,
2A46M1 has chamber pressure of 650 Mpa

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Same MK1 penetrator..

and those 470 figures you listed... those rounds are 125mm rounds...

 

[The Last Stand]

No use continuing. I give up.



You do not seem to understand the grave situation we are at.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Sure than have it your way..

You do not seem to understand the grave situation we are at.

 

[p2prada]

No use continuing. I give up.



You do not seem to understand the grave situation we are at.

The indigenous T-90 gun that was initially manufactured in 2006 was a failure. It wasn't based on Arjun's gun. That is actually impossible. One was developed by ARDE (Arjun) while the other was developed by OFB (modified 2A46).

Due to the failure IA refused to accept the T-90s. In 2008, the Russians cleared transfer of gun ToT to India. OFB manufactured the new guns and IA accepted induction of T-90 in 2009. There was a 2 year delay in induction because of the Russian delays. Meaning induction should have happened in 2007, not 2009.

Nevertheless, production is being ramped up big time to cater for the delays. Meaning the initial number was 100 tanks a year for 10 years. Now, the numbers are 150 tanks a year from this year onwards. This also includes any delays that will come up during the progressive T-90 upgrades to near T-90MS standards for the last two batches of ~700 tanks. So we will see the 700 upgraded tanks by 2018.

So in total we have around 900 T-90S inducted or nearly inducted. But I think production for first batch of ~350 tanks is already completed, out of the 1000 tank deal.

Once the T-90s are inducted in full force, you can say the production of FMBT may begin, depending on the success of the program. Armata may be a fall back program.

@Austin I suppose you accept these numbers based on your own observations.

 

[Austin]

I believe regarding the Gun , Its been mentioned before that OFB did not tempered the gun at desired temperature and hence it had the tendency to rupture while firing APFSDS rounds. ..... once they did a root cause of it they rectified it.

Also the Gun of T-90 is I believe similar to T-72 Gun ( 2A46M ) as IA wanted to maintain commonality between two guns remember reading this. Since I think right now both T-72 atleast the DRDO upgraded ones and T-90 fire same rounds.
@p2prada I believe you might have a better know on numbers I dont remember off my head and never really tracked it , my reading is we have around 700-800 T-90 right now.

Geopolitics latest issue has some info on numbers and upgrades

 

[arnabmit]

[video=youtube_share;lpu2EK7YGIE]http://youtu.be/lpu2EK7YGIE[/video]

Is the T-90MS hull & turret much lower (and broader) than the T-90S? or is it an optical illusion?

 

[ersakthivel]

The indigenous T-90 gun that was initially manufactured in 2006 was a failure. It wasn't based on Arjun's gun. That is actually impossible. One was developed by ARDE (Arjun) while the other was developed by OFB (modified 2A46).

Due to the failure IA refused to accept the T-90s. In 2008, the Russians cleared transfer of gun ToT to India. OFB manufactured the new guns and IA accepted induction of T-90 in 2009. There was a 2 year delay in induction because of the Russian delays. Meaning induction should have happened in 2007, not 2009.

Nevertheless, production is being ramped up big time to cater for the delays. Meaning the initial number was 100 tanks a year for 10 years. Now, the numbers are 150 tanks a year from this year onwards. This also includes any delays that will come up during the progressive T-90 upgrades to near T-90MS standards for the last two batches of ~700 tanks. So we will see the 700 upgraded tanks by 2018.

So in total we have around 900 T-90S inducted or nearly inducted. But I think production for first batch of ~350 tanks is already completed, out of the 1000 tank deal.

Once the T-90s are inducted in full force, you can say the production of FMBT may begin, depending on the success of the program. Armata may be a fall back program.

@Austin I suppose you accept these numbers based on your own observations.

Any source for the claims made in your statements?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Same Size, Just the turret is bigger in looks with lots of turret roof exposed..

In terms of design its worst than T-90 Bhishma or T-90A/S..

[video=youtube_share;lpu2EK7YGIE]http://youtu.be/lpu2EK7YGIE[/video]

Is the T-90MS hull & turret much lower (and broader) than the T-90S? or is it an optical illusion?

 

[Dinesh_Kumar]

Austin,

AFAIK, heat treatment issue was with 105mm barrel of Indian Field Gun / Light Field Gun.

Don't know whether same occured in 125mm M2A46 tank gun as well.

I'm interested in knowing more info abt this, please educate if possible.

BTW, are you the same Austin from BR Forums?

I believe regarding the Gun , Its been mentioned before that OFB did not tempered the gun at desired temperature and hence it had the tendency to rupture while firing APFSDS rounds. ..... once they did a root cause of it they rectified it.

Also the Gun of T-90 is I believe similar to T-72 Gun ( 2A46M ) as IA wanted to maintain commonality between two guns remember reading this. Since I think right now both T-72 atleast the DRDO upgraded ones and T-90 fire same rounds.
@p2prada I believe you might have a better know on numbers I dont remember off my head and never really tracked it , my reading is we have around 700-800 T-90 right now.

Geopolitics latest issue has some info on numbers and upgrades

 

[Dejawolf]

[video=youtube_share;lpu2EK7YGIE]http://youtu.be/lpu2EK7YGIE[/video]

Is the T-90MS hull & turret much lower (and broader) than the T-90S? or is it an optical illusion?

same height, just wider and longer because of the added ERA tiles and such. also, internal fire risk has been reduced because of external stowage of stored rounds.
however ready rounds are still located in the crew compartment, and a hit will still cause the turret to blow off.
FCS has been vastly improved, gone is the old TC's cupola, and instead a 360 degree panoramic periscope similar to leo is implemented instead.
TC also seems to have a BMS now.

 

[Austin]

Austin,

AFAIK, heat treatment issue was with 105mm barrel of Indian Field Gun / Light Field Gun.

Don't know whether same occured in 125mm M2A46 tank gun as well.

I'm interested in knowing more info abt this, please educate if possible.

I came across this when Ajai Shukla was responding to some one on this blog
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/51979-defective-t-72-tanks.html#post747198

 

[militarysta]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Im back

Its official that Arjun use ammo of penetration level of 470mm from 2000m,

Sure, accoding to exist analogy it's circa 300mm RHA for 2000m. And this value is comfirmed in data's.

but T-90S dont have much options either which have 500mm from 2000ms,

Exept bad quality IMI and other clones made in India T-90S have 3BM42 APFSDS which circa 460-520mm RHA on 2000m.

So what is better? 300mm for Arjun 120mm or 460-520mm RHA for 3BM42 in T-90S?

DRDO new ammo for MK-2 will have penetration level of 600-650mm from 2000m which is better than most which are available for import..

Sure...650mm without technology base. As I said - India have not technology enought to produce sucht APFSDS. What more - now more important is ability to overpas modern ERA, or multilayerd armour then "stupid" stack of the RHA plates. Sucht rounds exist only in: Russia, USA, Germany/Swizterland, Israel, Maybe in UK (maybe).

Even now the Arjun mk-1 has better firing accuracy on the move and in stationary condition than the present T-90 S in Indian army. So it can better use this 470 mm penetration rounds to hit the weak spots of the enemy tank than the T-90 according to the Indian army trials.

It's impossible to hit direct wak spots on distance bigger then 300m. It's just impossible - there is always stabilistaion mehanism error, gun and ammo dispresion and others. In fact tank in main sight looks just like a dark spot or shape and gunner ALWAYS aim in to center point of the mass. On distance smaller then 300m it can choose when it want to aim - to center mas of the turret or aim to center mass of the hull.
Aiming and hitting on wak spots is bullshit over imagination and it's complelty false. No one known to me instruction allowed to sucht aktion.

Once further Ammo development gives 650 mm penetration capability Arjun

In wet dream meybe. Only chanse to good ammo in india is Israeli licence. But nobody must do this - Indian Army haven't any good enogugh tchnologi in that case, so IA will buy even old APFSDS becouse IA have no choise. So it will buy KEW-A2, M332, or other ammo from middle 1990s.
.

So where is the shit?

In 300mm RHA for 120mm APFSDS Arjun ammo now.

So a better gun that can fire the 470 mm penetration level amm
If Arjun is able to direct even this 470 mm ammo

300mm for 90. for 2000m Start to understand this.

at the weak spots of the enemy tank with more accurate FCS even on the move ,

even if it able to hit the weak spots

No it's not able - no one tank is able to do this couse obvious way of FCS, gun and ammo working whit some ammo dispresion.

In a years or two 650 mm penetration ammo will be available to Arjun mk-1 .

It will be not. Firstly - less then 600mm, secondly - without hight-tech. IA have no choice - any ammo will be better then no exist Arjun ammo and 3BM42 so IA will buy any western ammo or how-know - even for middle 1990s ammo like KEW-A2 or M332.

 

[militarysta]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

max chamber pressure of the M256/RH 120 gun is 630 mpa

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Im back


Sure, accoding to exist analogy it's circa 300mm RHA for 2000m. And this value is comfirmed in data's.


Exept bad quality IMI and other clones made in India T-90S have 3BM42 APFSDS which circa 460-520mm RHA on 2000m.

So what is better? 300mm for Arjun 120mm or 460-520mm RHA for 3BM42 in T-90S?



Sure...650mm without technology base. As I said - India have not technology enought to produce sucht APFSDS. What more - now more important is ability to overpas modern ERA, or multilayerd armour then "stupid" stack of the RHA plates. Sucht rounds exist only in: Russia, USA, Germany/Swizterland, Israel, Maybe in UK (maybe).


It's impossible to hit direct wak spots on distance bigger then 300m. It's just impossible - there is always stabilistaion mehanism error, gun and ammo dispresion and others. In fact tank in main sight looks just like a dark spot or shape and gunner ALWAYS aim in to center point of the mass. On distance smaller then 300m it can choose when it want to aim - to center mas of the turret or aim to center mass of the hull.
Aiming and hitting on wak spots is bullshit over imagination and it's complelty false. No one known to me instruction allowed to sucht aktion.



In wet dream meybe. Only chanse to good ammo in india is Israeli licence. But nobody must do this - Indian Army haven't any good enogugh tchnologi in that case, so IA will buy even old APFSDS becouse IA have no choise. So it will buy KEW-A2, M332, or other ammo from middle 1990s.
.

In 300mm RHA for 120mm APFSDS Arjun ammo now.


300mm for 90. for 2000m Start to understand this.


No it's not able - no one tank is able to do this couse obvious way of FCS, gun and ammo working whit some ammo dispresion.




It will be not. Firstly - less then 600mm, secondly - without hight-tech. IA have no choice - any ammo will be better then no exist Arjun ammo and 3BM42 so IA will buy any western ammo or how-know - even for middle 1990s ammo like KEW-A2 or M332.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/w...ing-with-respect-to-our-capabilities/943623/0

When we were doing 425 or 400 and production was on, the Army decided that we should go for a higher penetration capability, 600 mm, and they wanted to do it urgently because this was a post-Kargil requirement. So they went for import. And that import has unfortunately not fructified due to various reasons. Now because we realise that there is going to be a gap, we have already upgraded this (FSAPDS) to 500.

That was the interview given by the man who heads the organization which developed the 500 mm round. Now whether it is official or not is something up to you to decide,

Before babbling on read Kunal's poster which says officially Arjun has 500 mm RHA penetration rounds,

And further bigger penetration ammo is being developed.

If you have any technical knowledge please detail what are the different tech involved in penetrating a stack of Iorn plate, ERA and composite amor.

World over the standard used for measuring ammo effectiveness level is --- mm RHA thickness.

Both you and I don't know which round is capable of doing magic on ERA tiles and composite armor , And whether this magical ability is restricted to Russian , US rounds or also present in Arjun rounds under development.

Arjun has better gun accuracy to hit the weak spots. According to trials witnessed by senior army generals and posted on broadsword website , Arjun can hit a suitcase sized target from 2 Km distance. The guy who posted this is a retired colonel who commanded a T-72 group.

According to MOD report submitted to a parliamentary standing committee on defence in 2009 itself ARJUN is the most accurate in on the move and on stationary firing in Indian Army stables which includes T-90 as well.