Arjun vs T90 MBT

[militarysta]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

how?
Arjun gun calibre is higher than t90
Because of manual loading can also load a even long rod penetrator
has a superior fire control system Because as per Indians claim arjun can accurately fire at a briefcase Size target from 4km

Most of this is pure propaganda. Till now India haven't good enought gun technology and 125mm 2A46M4/M5 avaible in Ob.188A2 (T-90A) is mucht better then any gun avaible in India. Amunition for 125mm in India (3BM42) is sitll better then those funny APFSDS round for Arjun and talking in style "soon we will have super-duper 12393gen APFSDS to overcome ERA,SLERA, NERA, Al Chalid, and two Type-99 one by one" is bullshit - meybe if Israel, Germany or other country whit advanced gun and ammo technology share how-know whit India then ammo in india will be quite modern -till now it's obsolate. And Indian tank and ammo industry is "famous" (infabulous) from very very bad quality both -ammo and tank components. BTW - and in Indian trades they are so bad for western companies ruless (ex: fully lincence) that nobody will share whit India really top technology fo armour or ammo. Just export version -meybe on top, but still export version.
FCS based on foregin components can be more modern then erly T-90S FCS and stabilisation mehanism can be better then obsolate "jasmine" from export T-90S/SA. But both where changed in latest russian Ob.188M (T-90MS) and propably late Ob.188A2 (T-90A). Mentioned "old" Irtysz FCS and Jasmine stabilisation is circa 15-20 yers old and newest "kalina" FCS is mucht better.
Suspesion in Arjun shoud be better then in T-90 any version. But it's not enought.
So in compare whit ERLY T-90S Arjun have better suspesion, maybe slighty better/the same in precision stabilisation mehanism and simmilare or slighty better FCS. But it have whorse gun, and ammo.
In compare to the late T-90SA Arjun have better only suspesion.

 

[bose]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Most of this is pure propaganda. Till now India haven't good enought gun technology and 125mm 2A46M4/M5 avaible in Ob.188A2 (T-90A) is mucht better then any gun avaible in India. Amunition for 125mm in India (3BM42) is sitll better then those funny APFSDS round for Arjun and talking in style "soon we will have super-duper 12393gen APFSDS to overcome ERA,SLERA, NERA, Al Chalid, and two Type-99 one by one" is bullshit - meybe if Israel, Germany or other country whit advanced gun and ammo technology share how-know whit India then ammo in india will be quite modern -till now it's obsolate. And Indian tank and ammo industry is "famous" (infabulous) from very very bad quality both -ammo and tank components. BTW - and in Indian trades they are so bad for western companies ruless (ex: fully lincence) that nobody will share whit India really top technology fo armour or ammo. Just export version -meybe on top, but still export version.
FCS based on foregin components can be more modern then erly T-90S FCS and stabilisation mehanism can be better then obsolate "jasmine" from export T-90S/SA. But both where changed in latest russian Ob.188M (T-90MS) and propably late Ob.188A2 (T-90A). Mentioned "old" Irtysz FCS and Jasmine stabilisation is circa 15-20 yers old and newest "kalina" FCS is mucht better.
Suspesion in Arjun shoud be better then in T-90 any version. But it's not enought.
So in compare whit ERLY T-90S Arjun have better suspesion, maybe slighty better/the same in precision stabilisation mehanism and simmilare or slighty better FCS. But it have whorse gun, and ammo.
In compare to the late T-90SA Arjun have better only suspesion.

Very good observation indeed, keep it up Expert!!

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

then they lied. T-90 has better firepower than the arjun.

Do you know the penetration values of the t-90 ammo supplied to india?

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-347.html#post756031

go to post no 5196 and 5197 at the page above and lets see who is wrong and who is right?

 

[The Last Stand]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Most of this is pure propaganda. Till now India haven't good enought gun technology and 125mm 2A46M4/M5 avaible in Ob.188A2 (T-90A) is mucht better then any gun avaible in India. Amunition for 125mm in India (3BM42) is sitll better then those funny APFSDS round for Arjun and talking in style

See my post. I have already answered the same.

We agree that gun and ammunition is very bad.

"soon we will have super-duper 12393gen APFSDS to overcome ERA,SLERA, NERA, Al Chalid, and two Type-99 one by one" is bullshit - meybe if Israel, Germany or other country whit advanced gun and ammo technology share how-know whit India then ammo in india will be quite modern -till now it's obsolate. And Indian tank and ammo industry is "famous" (infabulous) from very very bad quality both -ammo and tank components.

If someone said crap like that, I am sorry. I have not seen anyone claim that so far, you are remembering the famous sinodefence post which claimed that Type 99's APFSDS rounds can destroy two M1A2 one by one

Yes, if they share. Or if we catch up. You keep forgetting. India can advance.

As for bad quality of our industry, you might want to check out the finish of the LCA or our Sukhois. And our T-55 fleet ran for decades with little problems. Bad manufacturing parts? Your dream.

BTW - and in Indian trades they are so bad for western companies ruless (ex: fully lincence) that nobody will share whit India really top technology fo armour or ammo. Just export version -meybe on top, but still export version.

Yeah right. We are getting full ToT for Rafale. We got for Jaguar. Read up sir. We got the best Britain could offer at that time. We do get full licenses, don't forget, even for T-90 full licence was given later, @p2prada can tell you something on that.

FCS based on foregin components can be more modern then erly T-90S FCS and stabilisation mehanism can be better then obsolate "jasmine" from export T-90S/SA. But both where changed in latest russian Ob.188M (T-90MS) and propably late Ob.188A2 (T-90A). Mentioned "old" Irtysz FCS and Jasmine stabilisation is circa 15-20 yers old and newest "kalina" FCS is mucht better.

Stabilization should be comparable. But, "Kalina" is better than an Elbit FCS?

Suspesion in Arjun shoud be better then in T-90 any version. But it's not enought.
So in compare whit ERLY T-90S Arjun have better suspesion, maybe slighty better/the same in precision stabilisation mehanism and simmilare or slighty better FCS. But it have whorse gun, and ammo.
In compare to the late T-90SA Arjun have better only suspesion.

Who said it is enough? Arjun should have better accuracy but the gun has lower barrel pressure and lower quality ammunition. Our 125 mm rounds achieve the same level of performance as your 120 mm rounds do. So our ammunition industry isn't all that bad. The poor crappy ARDE gun is the limiting factor.

If I was the army chief, I would throw the Arjun on DRDO's face and ask them to start again, from the drawing board and try to make something better.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Most of this is pure propaganda. Till now India haven't good enought gun technology and 125mm 2A46M4/M5 avaible in Ob.188A2 (T-90A) is mucht better then any gun avaible in India. Amunition for 125mm in India (3BM42) is sitll better then those funny APFSDS round for Arjun and talking in style "soon we will have super-duper 12393gen APFSDS to overcome ERA,SLERA, NERA, Al Chalid, and two Type-99 one by one" is bullshit - meybe if Israel, Germany or other country whit advanced gun and ammo technology share how-know whit India then ammo in india will be quite modern -till now it's obsolate. And Indian tank and ammo industry is "famous" (infabulous) from very very bad quality both -ammo and tank components. BTW - and in Indian trades they are so bad for western companies ruless (ex: fully lincence) that nobody will share whit India really top technology fo armour or ammo. Just export version -meybe on top, but still export version.
FCS based on foregin components can be more modern then erly T-90S FCS and stabilisation mehanism can be better then obsolate "jasmine" from export T-90S/SA. But both where changed in latest russian Ob.188M (T-90MS) and propably late Ob.188A2 (T-90A). Mentioned "old" Irtysz FCS and Jasmine stabilisation is circa 15-20 yers old and newest "kalina" FCS is mucht better.
Suspesion in Arjun shoud be better then in T-90 any version. But it's not enought.
So in compare whit ERLY T-90S Arjun have better suspesion, maybe slighty better/the same in precision stabilisation mehanism and simmilare or slighty better FCS. But it have whorse gun, and ammo.
In compare to the late T-90SA Arjun have better only suspesion.

Living in delusion.

Which country will ban the export of advance tank round tech to India?

US, Israel ? really . the bilateral trade between India and Israel is more than 20 billions . india is the largest customer of israeli defence exports.

And israel is the second largest supplier of defence tech to India. if Israel sold it's back end signal processor for Lca tejas multi mode radar what makes you think that they would not allow India to have a simple tank round with bigger penetration values?

Us is selling apache, ready to sell javelin anti tank missile to India. So what makes you think that they would pressure israel to stop tank round tech export?

So Israel and US are afraid that India will go to war with them with these latest tech? Or will india supply this tech to taliban or China?

Even if they both don't sell it , how long it will take for us to develop it? for a nation that did the 23 rd successful consecutive launch of PSLV rocket which is capable of putting 1.5 ton satelite at 900 km alt polar orbit with pinpoint accuracy , a nation that has already launchd it's first nuclear submarine and has nuclear tipped under water launched ballistic missiles?

Ammo development will start in full swing once Indian army gives a substantial order for Arjun , either locally or with foreign partners. When orders for thousands of tanks are given ammo development won't be an obstacle.

remeber when the gun tech was not included in the original TOT for t-90 , the gun was made here locally using the tech developed for Arjun and the army accepted it as it was of the same standard of russian imported t-90s

higher chamber pressure gun development , higher penetration ammo development will gather steam only when the army gives a much bigger order. it is only now the IA has committed itself to Arjun by saying our future FMBTs will be based on Arjun further development models after seeing the limitations of t-90 in indian hot climatic conditions and poor crew safety fatures.

IA's own trial has proved the reliable functioning of Arjun' s FCS without any need for Ac and better accurate fire on the move capability of Arjun gun.

Without these certification from IA the DRDO will be fools for developing higher penetration ammo and higher chamber pressure more muzzle velocity gun as a a priority.

that is how the system works here. Without approval and induction of Arjun as a wepon system , why do you expect DRDO to go for developing ammo and gun without even knowing whether Arjun is going to see a large scale induction in Army.

it is like developing missiles for a fighter that is never going to be produced inl arge numbers. Which fool will do it?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

See my post. I have already answered the same.

We agree that gun and ammunition is very bad.



If someone said crap like that, I am sorry. I have not seen anyone claim that so far, you are remembering the famous sinodefence post which claimed that Type 99's APFSDS rounds can destroy two M1A2 one by one

Yes, if they share. Or if we catch up. You keep forgetting. India can advance.

As for bad quality of our industry, you might want to check out the finish of the LCA or our Sukhois. And our T-55 fleet ran for decades with little problems. Bad manufacturing parts? Your dream.



Yeah right. We are getting full ToT for Rafale. We got for Jaguar. Read up sir. We got the best Britain could offer at that time. We do get full licenses, don't forget, even for T-90 full licence was given later, @p2prada can tell you something on that.



Stabilization should be comparable. But, "Kalina" is better than an Elbit FCS?



Who said it is enough? Arjun should have better accuracy but the gun has lower barrel pressure and lower quality ammunition. Our 125 mm rounds achieve the same level of performance as your 120 mm rounds do. So our ammunition industry isn't all that bad. The poor crappy ARDE gun is the limiting factor.

If I was the army chief, I would throw the Arjun on DRDO's face and ask them to start again, from the drawing board and try to make something better.

if you are army chief first of all why do you accept a t-90 which arrived at Indian shores with jamming of FCS and crew fainting heat problems still unresolved?

Say there is a war and 1000s of t-90s are sent in rajasthan desert to stop pakistani armored thrust at that sector , and you know bloody well the FCS of your MBT will conk out and crew men will be barely alive fighting the insufferable heat.

How do you feel?

throwing down the tank at DRDO will mean they will simply shut the program and concentrate on so many other programs.

Then how does the Army expect to function as a fighting force of the future? Giving a guaranteed large order with initial guns from germany till a suitable better gun and ammo is developed locally is the way to go.Then the local gun can be replace the imported one in MLUs.

that is how it is being done in all other programs . even the americans haven't thrown the Abrams at their makers for the absence of a good cost effective gun. A tank as a system is so much more than the locally produced gun and ammo.
inducting the tank with whatever guns the army wish and going in for gun development at tandem is the idea.

A swedish grippen has a foreign engine, missile, and radar, But still it is considered a damned good fighter by IAF, So why a different standard for Arjun?

So why would we?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

@Keshav Murali,

120mm rifled Gun has 612mpa-800mpa chamber pressure, In that limit one can fire many modern rounds, T-90 Bhishma is more Indian then Russian not because its made in India but its composite Armour, Gun are design and made in India..

 

[nirranj]

Sirs, I am a novice..

I started reading this thread one day back and went on until the 12th page.. Im reading every posts and counter posts carefully... This thread was intended to compare the T90 vs Arjun MKI and conclude on the one that is well suited for Indian Army's probable tank battles in the great plains, army's war time doctrines and objectives and most importantly the safety of the tank men...
I will continuously read this thread and try to understand the arguments You guys make here and on the technical and strategic capabilities and abilities of these two tanks...
Thanks for all the knowledgeable members for sharing many info on these two tanks...

Hope the legend of Arjun prevails after 14 years of vanvaas and emerges victorious in the kurukshetra against multiple adversaries...

 

[p2prada]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Yeah right. We are getting full ToT for Rafale. We got for Jaguar. Read up sir. We got the best Britain could offer at that time. We do get full licenses, don't forget, even for T-90 full licence was given later, @p2prada can tell you something on that.

Militarysta us right. Nobody will provide ToT on armor and ammo.

Export version ToT also is a big maybe. We will have to build our own stuff for this.

 

[Dejawolf]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Do you know the penetration values of the t-90 ammo supplied to india?

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-347.html#post756031

go to post no 5196 and 5197 at the page above and lets see who is wrong and who is right?

why are you asking this question again?
500mm@2km for 125mm round 300mm for 120mm round. in other words, Arjun ammo is shit.

 

[The Last Stand]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

if you are army chief first of all why do you accept a t-90 which arrived at Indian shores with jamming of FCS and crew fainting heat problems still unresolved?

Say there is a war and 1000s of t-90s are sent in rajasthan desert to stop pakistani armored thrust at that sector , and you know bloody well the FCS of your MBT will conk out and crew men will be barely alive fighting the insufferable heat.

How do you feel?

throwing down the tank at DRDO will mean they will simply shut the program and concentrate on so many other programs.

Then how does the Army expect to function as a fighting force of the future? Giving a guaranteed large order with initial guns from germany till a suitable better gun and ammo is developed locally is the way to go.Then the local gun can be replace the imported one in MLUs.

that is how it is being done in all other programs . even the americans haven't thrown the Abrams at their makers for the absence of a good cost effective gun. A tank as a system is so much more than the locally produced gun and ammo.
inducting the tank with whatever guns the army wish and going in for gun development at tandem is the idea.

We never asked for hardened electronics or AC. And they were teething problems. Not major ones. Easily fixable. It was IA's mistake not asking for AC along with the tank.

I wouldn't feel a thing, because I know that if I were the Army Chief, I would never have ordered T-90 without AC and APU and rather gone for German Army surplus Leo 2A4's.

Only way to fix the Arjun problem? Change the gun and wait till we develop something better, as you say.

When did the Abrams not have a decent gun? When it was in development stages from the MBT-70 project, they thought of the ROF L7, which is probably the most underrated gun in history. Then they had the option of the L30, the L/44 120 mm gun, and the 152 mm gun. Not to mention the fact that the Rheinmetall 140 was also available once its development ended.

"Good cost effective gun" - the few things that fit the bill are the Rh 120 variants.

 

[The Last Stand]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

why are you asking this question again?
500mm@2km for 125mm round 300mm for 120mm round. in other words, Arjun ammo is shit.

If he does not accept this fact, do not keep repeating it. It will be in vain.

 

[The Last Stand]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

@Keshav Murali,

120mm rifled Gun has 612mpa-800mpa chamber pressure, In that limit one can fire many modern rounds, T-90 Bhishma is more Indian then Russian not because its made in India but its composite Armour, Gun are design and made in India..

By your logic sir, the Rh 120 L/44 has a 706 mpa-1000 mpa chamber pressure and the 2A46M-2 has 650 mpa-??? mpa chamber pressure. And the light LLR/47 has a 706-1100 mpa when it is lighter than L/44. All lighter and better

Composite armour is Indian, but we are just modifying the 2A46M-2 to meet our needs in India.

 

[Bhadra]

Sirs, I am a novice..

I started reading this thread one day back and went on until the 12th page.. Im reading every posts and counter posts carefully... This thread was intended to compare the T90 vs Arjun MKI and conclude on the one that is well suited for Indian Army's probable tank battles in the great plains, army's war time doctrines and objectives and most importantly the safety of the tank men...
I will continuously read this thread and try to understand the arguments You guys make here and on the technical and strategic capabilities and abilities of these two tanks...


Thanks for all the knowledgeable members for sharing many info on these two tanks...

Hope the legend of Arjun prevails after 14 years of vanvaas and emerges victorious in the kurukshetra against multiple adversaries...

You wish the Pakistanies to reach Kurukshetra ?
Hell of a wish !

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

We never asked for hardened electronics or AC. And they were teething problems. Not major ones. Easily fixable. It was IA's mistake not asking for AC along with the tank.

So in the desert only the Arjun is fit to fight long extended tank duels. there is no other tank in the indian army that can do the job now.

It is a strange piece of debating logic that all the so called problems of inadequate problem of gun and ammo becomes DRDO's responsibilities , but when it comes to T-90 ordering Ac and hardened FCS becomes army's responsibility and not that of the russian tank makers.

But the Indian army has not raised the questions of inadequate gun and ammo on Arjun till this day. It is good enough to blast through the tanks in our border areas might be the reason.

But they are asking for heat hardened FCS and night vision devices along with Ac and bigger APUs means t-90 has problems even in day to day operations that need to be rectified before it goes into full fledged battles.

So the Indian army has never critiqued the gun and ammo because they know it is good enough now and will get a more advanced version once arjun induction matures in the indian army

I wouldn't feel a thing, because I know that if I were the Army Chief, I would never have ordered T-90 without AC and APU and rather gone for German Army surplus Leo 2A4's.

If you are the army chief you should have known by now that there is no top dog mbt out there that is in off the shelf ready to be deployed in inidian hot battle field conditions, Even the german engine and transmission maker has to go through a lot to acclimatize their systems to indian conditions.

So every indian army chief in his right mind knows that further development of the Arjun along with phased induction is th way forward.

Only way to fix the Arjun problem? Change the gun and wait till we develop something better, as you say.

When did the Abrams not have a decent gun? When it was in development stages from the MBT-70 project, they thought of the ROF L7, which is probably the most underrated gun in history. Then they had the option of the L30, the L/44 120 mm gun, and the 152 mm gun. Not to mention the fact that the Rheinmetall 140 was also available once its development ended.

Right now it has the german gun . And all nato tanks are not firing their own home made ammo. So all tank systems have foreign elements and no one throws the tank back to the developers for having deficiency in one area.

"Good cost effective gun" - the few things that fit the bill are the Rh 120 variants


.

So that's why the IA sanely accepted that further evolution of Arjun is going to be their FMBT and shut the door on not fit to indian army operating conditions imports forever.

you should also remember that we will only get monkey versions (second grade gun tech and ammo along with armor tech) or the pleasantly renamed export versions when we go for buys abroad. Because there is no way foreign makers are going to sell you their top grade wares. Every one needs to keep the cutting edge tech within their country until they graduate to next level.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

why are you asking this question again?
500mm@2km for 125mm round 300mm for 120mm round. in other words, Arjun ammo is shit.

Its official that Arjun use ammo of penetration level of 470mm from 2000m, but T-90S dont have much options either which have 500mm from 2000ms,

DRDO new ammo for MK-2 will have penetration level of 600-650mm from 2000m which is better than most which are available for import..

Even now the Arjun mk-1 has better firing accuracy on the move and in stationary condition than the present T-90 S in Indian army. So it can better use this 470 mm penetration rounds to hit the weak spots of the enemy tank than the T-90 according to the Indian army trials.

Once further Ammo development gives 650 mm penetration capability Arjun will go one up on the T-90 S presently in IA. The ammo is common across mk-1 and mk-2. So even the operating mk-1s will be able to use the 650 mm penetration level ammo in future.

So where is the shit?

If he does not accept this fact, do not keep repeating it. It will be in vain.

So a better gun that can fire the 470 mm penetration level ammo must be thrown back at DRDO while we should keep the non just 30 mm extra 500 mm gun , which is not as accurate as the 470 mm penetration Arjun gun?

If Arjun is able to direct even this 470 mm ammo at the weak spots of the enemy tank with more accurate FCS even on the move ,

Do you think the lack of extra 30 mm penetration can be the sole reason to throw Arjun back to the drawing board , even if it able to hit the weak spots better than T-90 with more accurate FCS?

In a years or two 650 mm penetration ammo will be available to Arjun mk-1 . SO Ia loses nothing by keeping Arjun mk-1s in their stables.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

I am sure you noticed this thread >> http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-ammunition.html

==============

My point was only for Arjun, That under 612mpa chamber pressure it can fire many modern western / eastern AP rounds, The ammo is not a permanent factor..

Also, 612,mpa is recommended pressure above that any round expand will eat away the barrel quickly, Same for others..

By your logic sir, the Rh 120 L/44 has a 706 mpa-1000 mpa chamber pressure and the 2A46M-2 has 650 mpa-??? mpa chamber pressure. And the light LLR/47 has a 706-1100 mpa when it is lighter than L/44. All lighter and better

Composite armour is Indian, but we are just modifying the 2A46M-2 to meet our needs in India.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

That is the truth, 470mm from 2000ms is officially published but also 300mm from 2000ms..

What is interesting here, Is what angle the projectile hit the surface is important, Which gives different calibration of same ammo and same range..

Its official that Arjun use ammo of penetration level of 470mm from 2000m,

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Long back i have read about the Gun made by ARDE for T-90S, By specs it was more of a Arjun gun in smooth-bore and in 125mm..

No mention of max chamber pressure but efc was same as Arjun`s that is 500rnds..

but we are just modifying the 2A46M-2 to meet our needs in India.

 

[The Last Stand]

Re: Main Battle Tanks and Armour Technology

Its official that Arjun use ammo of penetration level of 470mm from 2000m, but T-90S dont have much options either which have 500mm from 2000ms,

DRDO new ammo for MK-2 will have penetration level of 600-650mm from 2000m which is better than most which are available for import.

@Kunal Biswas, I ask the same question they ask you.

Where is the source that says penetration is 470 mm? And any source for how MK-2's ammunition will be better? I'd suggest we wait till DefExpo 2014 till we make such conclusions.

Rosoboronexport is supposed to offer 3BM44M according to Fofanov, and it is a modern round for T-90 with penetration in excess of 650 mm. And KEW-A2 and KEW-A3 which are 120 mm export rounds have penetration in excess of 660 mm. And these values are for certified penetration. Not average.