Arjun vs T90 MBT

pmaitra

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The Arjun does have a lot of weaknesses mentioned in this it lacks modern ammunition, a smoothbore gun, the sides are covered only by storage boxes, the ammunition in the Arjun Mk 1 is not isolated from the crew compartment, it has huge ballistic gaps in the frontal area, etc.
The fact that Arjun has a rifle makes it far more accurate than any comparable smoothbore. The reason why Abrams' smoothbore works very well is because it has excellent "avionics" to help it, which India lacks. I am borrowing the term avionics from aircraft, because there is no equivalent term for tanks.

I will give you a few facts. Rifles work great with HEP/HESH and they are crucial in case of an Indo-Pak War. Rifles have difficulty firing Sabots, but manufacturing Sabots is extremely expensive. Even making sure every single round during the Sabot Petal separation works flawlessly requires extremely precise engineering. Moreover, HEP/HESH might not kill the occupants of an opponent tank, but it can very well disable it. Sure there are spall liners inside the crew compartment, but if a HEP/HESH hits the engine area, the main gun, or the exterior ammo storage, the tank would be disabled. A HEP/HESH is also crucial for taking out bunkers. Take away the vastly superior "avionics" of the Abrams, and the Arjun tank's rifle will prove to be far more accurate. Coming to shaped charge, the advantages of smoothbore over rifle are debatable.

Please read this excellent post, once again:
So, now you agree that Kanchan (a product developed for Arjun) is way more superior than T-90's armour. Ground Pressure is genuinely low by any standards given a tank of its size & volume & that's a feat of engineering excellence in itself. Increase in wight actually have NO effect on mobility, as you already know but are consistently trying to ignore. Crew-comfort is something you don't want to talk about because you do know that really matters in sustained operations. Rifling maybe old technique, but for firing HESH rounds (bunker-busting purposes & fortification demolition), it is better suited. Tanks like the abrams, lack a HE shell, or a multi-purpose HESH round, a critical limitation discovered in Iraq. Anyway, with chromium lining & several other modifications to main gun barrel, many limitations of rifling have been contained while preserving the accuracy benefits of the same. More volume also implies, larger APU & better sensor suite, a must have for today's net-centric battlefield.
 

TrueSpirit

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@methos:

No, I don't agree with that.
Does not matter. It's public knowledge & widely acknowledged, no matter how hard it is for some people to digest facts.

Now, Read below:
Methos : If the Mk 2, as claimed in different news reports, weighs 67 tons, then the only advantages it currently does have (the low ground pressure and higher degree of motorization) will vanish, while only some of the problems (only the lack of ammunition compartimenzation) will be solved
.

truespirit: Well, No. The advantage has not vanished at all. In fact, it still maintains the same acceleration levels (top-priority). Only, top-speed has lessened (low-impact).
Now, tell me what really matters, acceleration or top-speed ?

S. Kotsch, a former German tanker who served in the East German T-72 and later in the Leopard 1 and 2 of unified Germany. He will tell you that in his opinion the T-72 is no less comfortable than a Leopard 1 or 2.
Again, one/few islolated testimonies would not change the basic fact that Indian crew (who rode Arjun) found it way more comfortable than T-90. I mean, come on, who would really buy the argument that a T-72 is more comfortably than a Arjun-sized tank.

It was back in the 1970s, but technology has advanced since then.
Agreed, this is the popular notion today but there are enough contrary views as well. Anyway, when Arjun was initially designed designers found it better-suited.

Just a few:
Abrams has it today, it did not have it in Iraq. Again, public knowledge. Just do some googling.

More volume doesn't imply any better sensors.
It does imply more powerful i.e. bigger sensors (even going by today's tech.) & more flexibility. The downside that you missed to point out is: bigger silhouette.
 
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pmaitra

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No, I don't agree with that. There are several different versions of the T-90 with different armour. But as mentioned by several other posters here, the Indian T-90s are fitted with Kanchan armour, because the T-90 deal didn't include the transfer of armour technology.
I think @TrueSpirit was talking about the armour the Indian T-90s would have got as part of a possible armour ToT. That armour, whatever be it, wouldn't have been the Russian state of the art armour, but some deprecated armour which would have been inferior to Kanchan armour.
 
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TrueSpirit

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I think @TrueSpirit was talking about the armour the Indian T-90s would have got as part of a possible armour ToT. That armour, whatever be it, wouldn't have been the Russian state of the art armour, but some deprecated armour which would have been inferior to Kanchan armour.
Exactly, that's what I meant. Thanks for clarifying.
 
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Damian

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The fact that Arjun has a rifle makes it far more accurate than any comparable smoothbore.
This is probably why Challenger 2 that have Fire Control System based on FCS used in M1A2 and is armed with rifled gun, was actually less accurate then M1A2 and Leopard 2A5/A6 armed with smoothbore guns? :D

Maybe we should put an end to this idiotic myth about superior accuracy of obsolete rifled guns compared to modern smoothbore guns?

The reason why Abrams' smoothbore works very well is because it has excellent "avionics" to help it, which India lacks. I am borrowing the term avionics from aircraft, because there is no equivalent term for tanks.
There is a proper term in english, it is vetronics, or vehtronics.

I will give you a few facts. Rifles work great with HEP/HESH and they are crucial in case of an Indo-Pak War. Rifles have difficulty firing Sabots, but manufacturing Sabots is extremely expensive. Even making sure every single round during the Sabot Petal separation works flawlessly requires extremely precise engineering. Moreover, HEP/HESH might not kill the occupants of an opponent tank, but it can very well disable it. Sure there are spall liners inside the crew compartment, but if a HEP/HESH hits the engine area, the main gun, or the exterior ammo storage, the tank would be disabled. A HEP/HESH is also crucial for taking out bunkers. Take away the vastly superior "avionics" of the Abrams, and the Arjun tank's rifle will prove to be far more accurate. Coming to shaped charge, the advantages of smoothbore over rifle are debatable.
HEP/HESH for a very long time all over the world are considered as old, obsolete ammunition, with better alternatives allready avaiable or in R&D phase.

Oh and by the way, why the hell you are calling a tank gun a "rifle"? ;)

It is rifled not rifle.

Abrams has it today, it did not have it in Iraq. Again, public knowledge. Just do some googling.
What guarantee yoy have that google says the truth hmm?

Actually the M908 HEOR was standarized in 2003, and then production begun, so yes, they had it in Iraq, not during initial invasion, but they had it in Iraq.

http://www.atk.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Large-Caliber-Ammunition-120mm-Tank-Ammunition.pdf

120mm M908 HEOR is also superior to destroy obstacles than 165mm M123A1 HEP as per manufacturer claims.

http://www.atk.com/products-services/120mm-m908-he-or-t-ammunition/
 

methos

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The fact that Arjun has a rifle makes it far more accurate than any comparable smoothbore. The reason why Abrams' smoothbore works very well is because it has excellent "avionics" to help it, which India lacks. I am borrowing the term avionics from aircraft, because there is no equivalent term for tanks.
:facepalm:
No. You simply are incapable of understanding the difference between spin-stabilized and fin-stabilized ammunition. The gun is not more accurate, when fin-stabilized ammunition is used, which is the only modern type of ammunition. So much about your "facts".


Does not matter. It's public knowledge & widely acknowledged, no matter how hard it is for some people to digest facts.
Sure, it is a widely known fact, because India does not have any access to modern T-90 armour but still random Indian forum posters know the truth...


Now, tell me what really matters, acceleration or top-speed ?
You fail to understand. You are speaking about a difference of 1 to 2 seconds and pretend it to be a major factor in combat. No, it is not.
In NATO for example the minimal distance a tank will move in combat is estimated to be 400 m (or at least was in the 1970s, which is known as "combat jump", Kampfsprung in the German language). This is why the two MBT-70 versions, despite being fitted with two different engines (both had different acclerations) was believed to be equal. The same thing can be seen when the Leopard 2 and the M1 Abrams were joint-evaluated. It's the same difference between the Leclerc with hyperbar engine and the tropicalized Leclerc with diesel engine.
Acceleration is non-linear, which also makes generalized jugdements about the acceleration of different engines very hard.


Again, one/few islolated testimonies would not change the basic fact that Indian crew (who rode Arjun) found it way more comfortable than T-90.

I mean, come on, who would really buy the argument that a T-72 is more comfortably than a Arjun-sized tank.
What a surprise, Arjun tankers think it is better than a T-90? Every tanker will tell you that his tank is the best! Ask a group of T-90 tankers to ride in a Arjun and they will tell you the opposite. Ask a Russian tank crew to ride a M1 Abrams and they won't find it more comforable or better.
In the T-90 (like in the T-72 and the T-80) all crew members sit and have to focus on a very few items all located easily accessable from their seats. Have you ever been in a tank?


Agreed, this is the popular notion today but there are enough contrary views as well. Anyway, when Arjun was initially designed designers found it better-suited.
Yes, because the Arjun's development started in the 1974 as "Chetak" and became the "Arjun" in 1985. That the decissions which were made then might not work out as being good in the 2000s is nothing suprising.


Abrams has it today, it did not have it in Iraq. Again, public knowledge. Just do some googling.
You should do some googling. The M908 HE-OR, a specialized anti-bunker round, was introduced into service in Korea in 1997 as XM908. This round was available during Operation Iraqi Freedom in 2003. Your public knowledge fails.
The 125 mm gun had HE ammunition from it's first days, the Leopard 2 has been firing pure HE ammunition first in 1994/1995, but at this time only the Swedish ones.


It does imply more powerful i.e. bigger sensors (even going by today's tech.) & more flexibility.
No, it doesn't. Have you ever seen the sights/sensors of a tank in person?


I think TrueSpirit was talking about the armour the Indian T-90s would have got as part of a possible armour ToT. That armour, whatever be it, wouldn't have been the Russian state of the art armour, but some deprecated armour which would have been inferior to Kanchan armour.
If he did talk about that, then he would have lost the context of this discussion. This is not "what would happen if"-discussion, but a discussion about the real situation. Furthermore he posted 6 minutes before your post that this is not what he meant.
 
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pmaitra

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Oh and by the way, why the hell you are calling a tank gun a "rifle"? ;)

It is rifled not rifle.
You are saying the Arjun's gun is not a rifle. Then you are wrong, @Damian, absolutely wrong.


What is a rifle? Any barrel that has spiraling grooves cut on the inside that causes part of the linear velocity to be converted into rotational velocity, thus causing the projectile to spin, is a rifle.

Example:


Example of rifles:


This is a rifle - Arjun's gun.


This is a rifle - Carl-Gustav.


This is a rifle - Kalashnikov.
 
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Damian

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This is not a rifle, it is rifling.

Rifle use barrel with groove, called rifling, simple as this.
 

pmaitra

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No. You simply are incapable of understanding the difference between spin-stabilized and fin-stabilized ammunition. The gun is not more accurate, when fin-stabilized ammunition is used, which is the only modern type of ammunition. So much about your "facts".
Already discussed in detail in another thread, and supported with equations as well. In any event, some of the things you have written are, to present an unadulterated truth, wrong.
 

pmaitra

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This is not a rifle, it is rifling.

Rifle use barrel with groove, called rifling, simple as this.
Ok, fine, I am going to call the Arjun's gun a rifle, whether you like it or not, because, I think I am correct, and you are wrong. Let's leave it at that.
 

Dejawolf

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You are saying the Arjun's gun is not a rifle. Then you are wrong, @Damian, absolutely wrong.


What is a rifle? Any barrel that has spiraling grooves cut on the inside that causes part of the linear velocity to be converted into rotational velocity, thus causing the projectile to spin, is a rifle.

Example:


Example of rifles:


This is a rifle - Arjun's gun.


This is a rifle - Carl-Gustav.


This is a rifle - Kalashnikov.
Rifle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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p2prada

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Arjun didn't exist when the T-90 was chosen by the army. It was as simple as that. When Arjun was ready, the army didn't need it. There really isn't much to think about there. In the end we still chose the better tank.

According to what Kunal Biswas said, something about made in India and designed in India and something to do with modifications.

Anything that can be fully made in India can be modified in India. Swordfish has undergone various modifications within the country. T-72s hull is used for Akash SAM, not possible without the ability to make the hull in India. The very reason why Tank-Ex was made was because we could modify the T-72 as we wanted to. A lot of T-72 upgrades are related to our ability to modernize it inhouse.

There is no platform that has been modified more than the BMP-2 in India. All because we know how to build it. Google AAD, AERV, NBCRV, NAMICA, BMP-2 UGV and a few others. Read about them and it becomes painfully obvious that these are not Russian systems.

Brahmos has seen three evolutions and will see at least 9 or 10 more before Brahmos 2 is ready. Not possible without knowing how to make it in India.

The only people on the planet who value designing inhouse more than inducting a working product that can be modified are people who have literally ZERO experience or knowledge in how the system works.

T-90 was modified to carry our own armour. It doesn't matter if it was designed in Russia or India. The ability to modify is an entirely different aspect. Eventually we will modify the gun to perform better, like we did with the 2A46 (T-72s gun) where we scaled up the firepower and service life by a very very healthy margin. The guns nominal pressure of 5000 was increased to 8000, EFC was increased from 250 to 1800.

So to "modify" Kunal's post. There are three aspects, not two.

Design
Build
Modify

Design - The forces give two hoots where it is designed. India, Russia, France or Mars. That's why they don't really give two figs about DRDO.

Build - The forces find this to be the most important aspect. Maintenance would come under this.

Modify - Over time the vendor, regardless of which country, allows the modification of the system. For one, the Russians have no problems with us modifying their technology like in the case of T-72 and BMP-2. Jaguars and Mig-27s are being modified like crazy. Heck we are importing our own engines for Jaguar along with Israeli radars. That itself is a major modification. Gnat was modified to Ajeet. That also was a major modification.

When military commanders talk about indigenous, in the operational sense they are talking about "Build" and "Modify." In the patriotic sense, to get kids jumping, they talk about "Design." In reality, they don't care as long as Build and Modify is allowed.

It is the same for the US. That's why they import weaponry as well. A lot of their aircraft avionics are developed in Israel. Namely, targeting pods and HMDs. The latest F-35 HMD is also an Israeli design.
 

Damian

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Well, I agree overall, however designing your own weapon systems is also important. But designing must be done the smart way, by learning from the more experienced countries, to avoid repeating the same mistakes or reinventing the wheel.

This are the biggest problems.

And of course critical thinking, without critical thinking you can't improve, because you do not see weaknesses, untill it is too late and someone dies because of these weaknesses.
 

militarysta

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About Arjun and T-90S.
@methos @Damian @Kunal @other users

Propably Indian industry have compare between next Kanchan armour models and Ob.184 armour (T-72B) becouse the same armour -based on cast steel and simple NERA plates was used in fist bathes Ob.188 (T-90) whit cast turret and first variants T-90S. And first bath 40 tanks was sent to India propably whot the same armour as Ob.184 or Ob.188 - it's almoust sure in comanders tansk (K indeks). So im almoust sure that Indian industry and army have chanse to compare obsolate T-72B armour (put in first T-90S) whit new Kanchan. And yes - kanchan shoud be better then those cast steel -NERA plates - RHA plate - cast steel T-90S armour. Russian T-90A (Ob.188A1/A2) carry propably completly diffrent armour, but first bath send to India had propably orginall armour from T-72B and erly T-72s so Ob.1888 do layter T-90 (erly).
And this will explain a lot I suppose.
 
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hest

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So it is just some rumour.

If license for armour, gun, others was not given it normally means it is purchased in ready kit for assembly, indian T-90S was in fact until maybe recently mostly made from russian produced components.
 
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shiphone

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the following might be the source...

Then HVF officials discovered that Russia had withheld key T-90S technologies without valid reason. This included technology for crucial components like the tank's main gun and a key section of the turret armour. When New Delhi demanded those technologies, Moscow blandly responded that they were secret. To this day, Russia has not transferred full technology for building the T-90S in India.

The MoD has not responded to emailed questions about this issue. But when Business Standard asked MSN Rao, General Manager of HVF Avadi, how the T-90S was being built without these technologies, he confirmed: "We developed the tank gun indigenously in Central Ordnance Depot, Kanpur, and the turret armour component in CVRDE (Combat Vehicles R&D Establishment), Avadi. This is still a sticking point between India and Russia."
Broadsword: T-90 tank: Technology transfer, supply of assemblies hit Russian stonewall

it was a two parts report ...the second part...
Part II: Army's delayed orders halts T-90 tank
 
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Kunal Biswas

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To add some further clarity to following points :


1. Tank-EX`s T-72 chassis was imported as Russian denied to carry out same with existing chassis, Same for AKASH SAM.

2. When talking indigenous, modify comes within design while modifying someone else product is entierly dufferent case which need permission / mercy from third party. ( T-90/72m1 case is famous for it )

3. DRDO/OFB made BMP-2 based vehicles ( 7 wheels ) are not entierly Russian design, they are entirely different and new serice of Indian deign and made vehicles, few exceptions as NAMICA which use pure Russian design BMP-2.


**Modified is a formal way to express a savage twist**

================


Regarding T-90 Bhishma, I suggest members to read DRDO annual reports so does Frontier reports on T-90 Bhishma unusual ground pressure to clear there confusion, links and screen shots are provided in this thread and on Arjun thread..

T-90 Bhisma is nor Russsian Army model nor export model, Its a separate variation of T-90 itself..


================

@ersakthivel can shed more light over this thread..
 
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