Arjun vs T90 MBT

[STGN]

SKJ said that the turret to hull ratio is 10:12---you can use your own calculator and get the calculations for turret:hull as per SKJ's estimate.

Lets pretend that you didn't read the other thread
My numbers says 10:12.5 so SKJ is validating my results.

Copied from other thread:
Ran out of bad arguments I see, and you are in a really bad position to criticize others of their English language skills. But fair enough that is spelled wrong, it is because I am Danish and in Danish the word for perspective is "perspektiv" and we frequently use k instead of c so it happens that I mix the two up when I am typing using 10 finger system.

I am ready for that apology now, where you say that you are sorry for lying and distorting my words. And that you agree that you where wrong in defending a turret width of 3.2m and that the current evidence shows something much closer to ~2.84m.
STGN

 

[skj]

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-259.html

post no-3881 posted by SKJ.

this is what i am repeating, he is taking the most convenient distorted measurements to suit his objective.
By measuring the turret length at a very different point on the photo from hull length he is givina a very distorted picture.

How do you decide where to drop the vertical blue lines to find the width of the hull? I could just as easily draw the two vertical blue lines wider apart or closer together. If you cant figure out a simple measurement from a photo thats headon, and you cant correct yourself when multiple people have pointed it out to you, you are an internet idiot not worth spending any time on.

MOD EDIT : DON'T GET PERSONAL

 

[pmaitra]

@skj, @ersakthivel, @Damian, @STGN, @militarysta

Ok, let me put this clearly:

• This is a debate, and we should expect disagreements in a debate. If there is no disagreement, there is no debate.
• Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion.
• We do not know for sure who is right and who is wrong, because all we are using are a bunch of pictures, that are subject to distortion, refraction, and perspective errors. Unless one posts a picture of a person with vernier calipers measuring the thickness of the turret wall while being fabricated, everything else is mere speculation.
• Finally, no one calls the other person stupid, idiot, moron, etc.. You must respectfully disagree. This is a requirement, not an option. Heretoforth, abusive language and ad hominem attacks will be dealt with strictly. This is not the first reminder. Remember, if you cannot respond without abusing, you have the choice to walk away from a debate.

Thank you for your cooperation.

 

[STGN]

How do you decide where to drop the vertical blue lines to find the width of the hull? I could just as easily draw the two vertical blue lines wider apart or closer together. If you cant figure out a simple measurement from a photo thats headon, and you cant correct yourself when multiple people have pointed it out to you, you are an internet idiot not worth spending any time on.

MOD EDIT : DON'T GET PERSONAL

Well that is easy to answer I looked at side photos and saw where the the turret edges where in relation to the armored side skirts then I made the lines connect there. Yes you could but then you would not be measuring the turret width.
Only two profiles has really contested my picture. And if I am such an Internet idiot, you can just run away.
STGN

 

[skj]

Well that is easy to answer I looked at side photos and saw where the the turret edges where in relation to the armored side skirts then I made the lines connect there. Yes you could but then you would not be measuring the turret width.
Only two profiles has really contested my picture. And if I am such an Internet idiot, you can just run away.
STGN

Thats simply not the place where the turret meets the hull. Its plainly obvious to my eyes, and can also be seen here:-
Gun Characteristics [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

It is what is is, you drawing lines is not going to change that. Anyone with any kind of measuring device can measure it himself/herself.

 

[Dejawolf]

Thats simply not the place where the turret meets the hull. Its plainly obvious to my eyes, and can also be seen here:-
Gun Characteristics [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

It is what is is, you drawing lines is not going to change that. Anyone with any kind of measuring device can measure it himself/herself.

same result as STGN:

 

[Sam2012]

Soon Al Khalid & Arjun will go head to head , with the border tension running wild there is tremendous pressure on our babus

Why to buy mordern weapons if it is not used when country needs it at the most

 

[Dejawolf]

Soon Al Khalid & Arjun will go head to head , with the border tension running wild there is tremendous pressure on our babus

Why to buy mordern weapons if it is not used when country needs it at the most

well, if it happends, we can hope the conflict won't go nuclear...

 

[Sam2012]

well, if it happends, we can hope the conflict won't go nuclear...

India has no first use policy & they will stick to that . But Pak will be forced to use first because coventional war means pakistan will sustain heavy loss

 

[STGN]

Thats simply not the place where the turret meets the hull. Its plainly obvious to my eyes, and can also be seen here:-
Gun Characteristics [www.bharat-rakshak.com]

It is what is is, you drawing lines is not going to change that. Anyone with any kind of measuring device can measure it himself/herself.

You are just illustrating that you are incapable of judging perspective heres an actual side shot of the tank
"it is what it is" why you keep saying that nonsense, if you have photos of somebody applying measuring tape to the actual tank itself do post them.
STGN

 

[skj]

You are just illustrating that you are incapable of judging perspective heres an actual side shot of the tank
"it is what it is" why you keep saying that nonsense, if you have photos of somebody applying measuring tape to the actual tank itself do post them.
STGN

If someone comes to me, puts a thumb against his eye, and says my thumb is as large as the moon because it can completely hide it, and demands that I prove that the moon is larger, what do you expect me to do except to say, you ignore perspective, your method of comparison is incorrect? Ill just say, it is what it is, you or me drawing lines is not going to change it. Anyone who really wants to measure the width can do so quite easily from the few head on photographs that we have.

 

[Dejawolf]

If someone comes to me, puts a thumb against his eye, and says my thumb is as large as the moon because it can completely hide it, and demands that I prove that the moon is larger, what do you expect me to do except to say, you ignore perspective, your method of comparison is incorrect? Ill just say, it is what it is, you or me drawing lines is not going to change it. Anyone who really wants to measure the width can do so quite easily from the few head on photographs that we have.

this comparison is not viable. from the images, you can get in the ballpark with an accuracy of about 10-20cm. you just need to find pictures with as little perspective distortion as possible. good pictures are pictures taken from relatively far away, with a high level of magnification. closeups are a big nono, since perspective distortion is extremely heavy.

 

[Dejawolf]

to elaborate further: it's much harder to measure into a picture, than it is to measure heightwise or lengthwise.
so for example for an image like this, determining the length of the vehicle is very hard, because the perspective distorts the length, while measuring widths is a whole lot easier.

in this picture for example, the perspective distortion of the width is about 11%.

 

[pmaitra]

@asianobserve, what are your observations about the measurements of the tank?

 

[asianobserve]

All I can say is that it seems that Dejawolf knows what he's talking about...

 

[Dejawolf]

if you want to get real complicated, you can try and figure out the exact perspective distortion by figuring out the vanishing point of the picture, and then use a known length or width to calculate an unknown length/width:

Mathematics of Perspective Drawing

 

[pmaitra]

All I can say is that it seems that Dejawolf knows what he's talking about...

Yes, indeed, and his 3D models are also very well made.

 

[STGN]

If someone comes to me, puts a thumb against his eye, and says my thumb is as large as the moon because it can completely hide it, and demands that I prove that the moon is larger, what do you expect me to do except to say, you ignore perspective, your method of comparison is incorrect? Ill just say, it is what it is, you or me drawing lines is not going to change it. Anyone who really wants to measure the width can do so quite easily from the few head on photographs that we have.

Heres how I determined where to place the lines at. If you think it is wrong please show where you would place the lines to get "correct" measurement and your number of 3m.
STGN

 

[ersakthivel]

The shadow of the turret falls on the hull at the third blue line from the top.
it is the place where turret's side wall projection on the hull would fall.
The blue rectangle drawn on the TC's crew hatch cover represent s the true length of the hatch cover .
This rectangle is projected in the correct plane on the hull ,
found out by the downwards projection of the line joining the two hatch covers on the turret top,
to the top of the hull.
This is the perspective drawing as far as I know,

If the side skirts are not included in the 3800 mm width of the hull the red line indicates that about half of the hatch cover length is the actual width besides the turret on the ARJUN hull.

IF the crew hatch measures 550mm it is about 275 mm.
SO the width of the turret is 3200 mm-(275x2=500 mm)=3300 mm,

If side skirts are included in the width about 4/5 th of the hatch cover length is the actual width besides the turret on the ARJUN hull.
That is about 0.80x550 mm=440 mm
3800-(400x2=880 mm)= 2900 mm is the width of the ARJUN turret.

Even if you take a worst case scenario of 2900 mm turret width,
1450mm is the distance between outter most side wall of arjun side turret and the turret centerline,
1200 mm is the distance between the two crew hatch centers,
1200/2= 600 mm is the distance of Tc' seat edge from the turret center line,
So 1450 mm-600 mm=850 mm is the space available besides the crew hatch center and the outer most side wall of arjun turrret,

If people agree on this point we can have an objective point.



E

 

[ersakthivel]

This 850 mm is the distance between the outer turret wall of the arjun and the crew hatch hole center,
The two crew hatch holes are located at the same distance from the turret center line is my estimate,

SO even if we give out a margin of error of 200 mm in my estimate the space available for armor on the arjun's side turret wall is 650 mm.

Whether it is perspective drawing or perspektive drawing these rules are universal,
All objects must be projected to the apropriatre place to get any fair estimate,
The crew hatch covers are opened and standing vertically,.
The blue line joining the base of the two crew hatch covers represent the proper axis on which the covers are standing vertically,
SO if we have to project the width of the crew hatch cover to the correct position on the hull,
We should project the axis line joining the two crew hatch cover base on the turret top to it's correct position on the hull top,
That's what I have done.