Arjun vs T90 MBT

[STGN]

Heres a shot to show that your hatch hole hypothesizes is wrong.

What I did was just to cut out hatch hole and paste it down there and draw on lines. I accept that is not 100% accurate but the hatch hole should not be made double size to show how it really would look.
STGN

 

[pmaitra]

I did, do you see an error?
STGN

I won't claim there is an error, but I am concerned that the hull and turret geometry, in the holistic sense, is not laterally symmetrical.

 

[STGN]

I won't claim there is an error, but I am concerned that the hull and turret geometry, in the holistic sense, is not laterally symmetrical.

I know, it was done to show the 3.2 number was totally wrong which I think it does pretty well. probable a pixel or 2 wrong on both sides.
STGN

 

[ersakthivel]

Ah so we have determined your faults, measuring directly on computer screen, assuming baseless that crew hatch hole is min. 550mm which is quit a luxury size hole and of cause you get error when you make wrong assumption like that and assumption which doesn't fit when you use the numbers on other parts like the hull as My photo shows clearly. The crew hatch hole is smaller than 550mm it doesn't need to be that big to get human through hell a 400mm hole could get most people through.
STGN

Now I know the purpose of your posts here,Fair debate is the last in the list of your priorities,

you don't know single spec of arjun,

And you will refuse to accept anything logical

that it is beneath my contempt to respond to this type of arguments.Bye

 

[ersakthivel]

Heres a shot to show that your hatch hole hypothesizes is wrong.

What I did was just to cut out hatch hole and paste it down there and draw on lines. I accept that is not 100% accurate but the hatch hole should not be made double size to show how it really would look.
STGN

this is fraud. the crew hatch down is reduced in scale, pathetic attempt.

If you put the original crew hole besides the frontal turret armor block you won't fit more than 2/3 rd of it.

Now you are getting trapped , if crew hole is 400 mm only as per your post ,you are proving yourself wrong.

And if you put the original sized crew hole on the hull besides the turret near frontal armor block, you can only fit 2/3rd of it

SO you are once again proving my estimate that there is no more than 300 mm space besides the turret on the hull.

o it bolsters my estimate of 3200 mm turret width.So whatever deception you try here you are going to get trapped both ways,
whether the crew hole is 550 mm or 400 mm does not matter.

Why are you doing this?

 

[ersakthivel]

Ah so we have determined your faults, measuring directly on computer screen, assuming baseless that crew hatch hole is min. 550mm which is quit a luxury size hole and of cause you get error when you make wrong assumption like that and assumption which doesn't fit when you use the numbers on other parts like the hull as My photo shows clearly. The crew hatch hole is smaller than 550mm it doesn't need to be that big to get human through hell a 400mm hole could get most people through.
STGN

this 550 mm crew hatch measurement was given in this forum as well.

but one thing is clear you are having fun here, You don't know a single spec of arjun's dimension.

 

[pmaitra]

this is fraud. the crew hatch down is reduced in scale, pathetic attempt.

The crew hatch has not been scaled down, but it has not been cut out properly. You see, the hole is smaller than the base, so if we cut out along the base, it won't fit where @STGN has put it, but it would surely fit if you move it behind a little bit to place it right next to the crew area. He already said that it is not 100% accurate, so it is not fair to call his work fraud. You can do it yourself and see.

 

[militarysta]

this 550 mm crew hatch measurement was given in this forum as well.

but one thing is clear you are having fun here, You don't know a single spec of arjun's dimension.

ROTFL, You are so ready for mental hospital that you can be from Poland

Values given by Kunal was propably wrong (it's nothing personal - maybe Kunal just made mistake )
I masured each possibe diamension on Arjun draw from Kampfpanzer heute und morgen. and I gave them here.
Turret width is ~2,80 -2,84m and Arjun turret width is 2,34m -2,4m in on crews hatches place.

STGN had made his on job, and his mesurments are almoust the sam as my job. Dejawolf gave slight diffrent values, but still on simmilar to ours ones.
So 3 diffrent users made their own mesurment and eacht one estimatous proof that you made mistake after mistake . IMHO you shoud just think what you are trying forced agains any posibble evidences.

just look at the boot size of the two men, there is no more than two boot length on the arjun hull besides the turret is something any kid would understand,it is at the most 300 mm including the side skirts,
where is the space for 50 cm length?
the tank's width is 3.84 meter, you can estimate the turret width from this photo.

Jesus Christ... I was using three difrent photos and two avaible draws and result was always the same whit some error of course.
Stop posting phatetic bullshit and just admit that you made mistake estimatous -it's nothing wrong. But You act like very resistan for hard proofs person. As I said - you can be from Poland

 

[STGN]

this is fraud. the crew hatch down is reduced in scale, pathetic attempt.
Pathetic Lie
If you put the original crew hole besides the frontal turret armor block you won't fit more than 2/3 rd of it.
Wrong.
Now you are getting trapped , if crew hole is 400 mm only as per your post ,you are proving yourself wrong.
That is not what I said, your twisting my words again.
And if you put the original sized crew hole on the hull besides the turret near frontal armor block, you can only fit 2/3rd of it
Wrong.
SO you are once again proving my estimate that there is no more than 300 mm space besides the turret on the hull.
No I am not
o it bolsters my estimate of 3200 mm turret width.So whatever deception you try here you are going to get trapped both ways,
whether the crew hole is 550 mm or 400 mm does not matter.
Logic fail, if holes are only 400mm turret would be considerably slimmer than your claim.

Why are you doing this?

Well at first it was to help you see your mistake. But now I am just hoping that you are on your way to slowly realise you are wrong, as a plus its tragic fun to see how pathetic, dishonest and illogical you act.

One thing I must commend is your tenacity even if illogical and misdirected. But I gotta ask if somebody on this forum said it was safe to jump of bridges would you do it?

Maybe those 550mm where the outside of the crew hatch installation, maybe it was before the hatch was even installed or maybe someone made a mistake. I don't know, all I know is that because the Arjun is 3.846m wide the crew hatch holes are not 550mm wide.
STGN

 

[ersakthivel]

The crew hatch has not been scaled down, but it has not been cut out properly. You see, the hole is smaller than the base, so if we cut out along the base, it won't fit where @STGN has put it, but it would surely fit if you move it behind a little bit to place it right next to the crew area. He already said that it is not 100% accurate, so it is not fair to call his work fraud. You can do it yourself and see.

But the placement of the crew hatch is also misleading.
It should be placed besides the crew actual hatches on the turret.
because in perspective drawing the same distance appears broader in the front
and
narrower in the back of the picture,
By cutting a crew hatch piece that is 2.6 meter away from the turret front
and
placing 2.6 meters in front near the gun he is actually misleading the forum.

See the green line you marked ,

It is actually a bit inside of the actual armor line,

You extend the first frontal armor block's sideline through out the hull length in parallel,

And mark the new corrected dotted green lines on it.

In the same way you extend the bottom turret line of the first frontal armor block.Mark it as line----2.

{if you measure the distance between this line and the hull edge and compare it with the crew hatch dia ,it will give you an idea.}


just draw a two red perpendicular lines to the hull ,

their vertical height must be equal to the height of the turret.

Then join the ending of the two red lines on the hull,this line will lie just on the line ---2 you drew above by extending( the first side armor blocks on the side of the turret) bottom line of the turret from the front,

And extend the line down on the hull by a few more mm ,because the turret is located at least 200 mm above the hull.



And ask him to place the crew hatch here,

his mistake can be seen.

If he places those crew hatches 2 meters in front , he is in effect presenting a distorted view of dimensions to suit his perspective.

 

[ersakthivel]

ROTFL, You are so ready for mental hospital that you can be from Poland

Values given by Kunal was propably wrong (it's nothing personal - maybe Kunal just made mistake )
I masured each possibe diamension on Arjun draw from Kampfpanzer heute und morgen. and I gave them here.
Turret width is ~2,80 -2,84m and Arjun turret width is 2,34m -2,4m in on crews hatches place.

STGN had made his on job, and his mesurments are almoust the sam as my job. Dejawolf gave slight diffrent values, but still on simmilar to ours ones.
So 3 diffrent users made their own mesurment and eacht one estimatous proof that you made mistake after mistake . IMHO you shoud just think what you are trying forced agains any posibble evidences.


Jesus Christ... I was using three difrent photos and two avaible draws and result was always the same whit some error of course.
Stop posting phatetic bullshit and just admit that you made mistake estimatous -it's nothing wrong. But You act like very resistan for hard proofs person. As I said - you can be from Poland

You are not even fit to be in the mental hospital as it is a waste of their resource on treating you,

Kunal has already given you and damian the turret width of 3200 mm ,

And hull width of 3840 mm in his discussion with you in this very forum months before ,

you kept quiet then and now you are ganging up with few nut cases to malign me , damn it,

I will browse and give you the link to the page where kunal gave this dimensions to you, Damn it.

 

[ersakthivel]

Well at first it was to help you see your mistake. But now I am just hoping that you are on your way to slowly realise you are wrong, as a plus its tragic fun to see how pathetic, dishonest and illogical you act.

One thing I must commend is your tenacity even if illogical and misdirected. But I gotta ask if somebody on this forum said it was safe to jump of bridges would you do it?

Maybe those 550mm where the outside of the crew hatch installation, maybe it was before the hatch was even installed or maybe someone made a mistake. I don't know, all I know is that because the Arjun is 3.846m wide the crew hatch holes are not 550mm wide.
STGN

there are no may be ..........may be in dimensions
Only one dimension is there.
that's all.

See the green line you marked ,

It is actually a bit inside of the actual armor line,

You extend the first frontal armor block's sideline through out the hull length in parallel,

And mark the new corrected dotted green lines on it.

In the same way you extend the bottom turret line of the first frontal armor block.Mark it as line----2.

{if you measure the distance between this line and the hull edge and compare it with the crew hatch dia ,it will give you an idea.}


just draw a two red perpendicular lines to the hull ,

their vertical height must be equal to the height of the turret.

Then join the ending of the two red lines on the hull,this line will lie just on the line ---2 you drew above by extending( the first side armor blocks on the side of the turret) bottom line of the turret from the front,

And extend the line down on the hull by a few more mm ,because the turret is located at least 200 mm above the hull.

it will fall on the third blurred corrugated line present on the hull besides the crew hatch,if you start counting from hull edge.

So if you measure the distance between the third corrugated blurred line on the and the hull edge it is no more than 15 mm,
While the crew hatch measures more than 200 mm on scale.

it is a standard practice in perspective drawing to project the pieces to their original to make the correct comparision.

Cutting a piece and pasting it 2 meters in front of where it should be placed like this is stupid.







And fit the crew hatch here,

your mistake can be seen.

If you places the crew hatch 2 meters in front , you are in effect presenting a distorted view of dimensions to suit your perspective.

 

[ersakthivel]

ROTFL, You are so ready for mental hospital that you can be from Poland

Values given by Kunal was propably wrong (it's nothing personal - maybe Kunal just made mistake )
I masured each possibe diamension on Arjun draw from Kampfpanzer heute und morgen. and I gave them here.
Turret width is ~2,80 -2,84m and Arjun turret width is 2,34m -2,4m in on crews hatches place.

STGN had made his on job, and his mesurments are almoust the sam as my job. Dejawolf gave slight diffrent values, but still on simmilar to ours ones.
So 3 diffrent users made their own mesurment and eacht one estimatous proof that you made mistake after mistake . IMHO you shoud just think what you are trying forced agains any posibble evidences.


Jesus Christ... I was using three difrent photos and two avaible draws and result was always the same whit some error of course.
Stop posting phatetic bullshit and just admit that you made mistake estimatous -it's nothing wrong. But You act like very resistan for hard proofs person. As I said - you can be from Poland

it is kunal biswas who posted this picture with the 3200 mm measurement months before in ARJUn MBT thread.

Do you remember this or were you in mental hospital in poland then?

 

[ersakthivel]

Who first made this diagram?

the two objects *must* be at the same distance from the lens. Therefore, if you want to deduce the width of the turret by comparing the number of pixels it occupies to the number of pixels occupied by the hull, both measurements must be made at the same plane/line in the picture.
SKJ

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-259.html

post no-3881 posted by SKJ.

this is what i am repeating, he is taking the most convenient distorted measurements to suit his objective.
By measuring the turret length at a very different point on the photo from hull length he is givina a very distorted picture.

 

[ersakthivel]

We can see the 200 mm distance between the turret bottom line and hull clearly in this picture,

 

[ersakthivel]

It is the problem when people think they know engineering drawing and perspective drawing,
by simply having access to PHOTOSHOP and pixel measurements,
and chopping some photographs at will.
In perspective drawing the object that is closer to the observer always appear bigger,
The same object that is 2 meter back appears very smaller,
That is the reason that that by drawing projection lines they must all be brought on a relative same plane before making measurements.

if you look at the hull in front and the same hull near the point of crew hatches you can see how it reduces size in appearance,
Does that mean they whether the hull reduces in size in reality?
NO.
It is same as looking at the tracks standing at the center of railway track and saying at the farthest distance tracks join together.

if we draw the projection lines like I said in post 1353 , we can all get liberated from the tyranny of photshop dimensions

 

[STGN]

there are no may be ..........may be in dimensions
Only one dimension is there.
that's all.

See the green line you marked ,

It is actually a bit inside of the actual armor line,

You extend the first frontal armor block's sideline through out the hull length in parallel,

And mark the new corrected dotted green lines on it.

In the same way you extend the bottom turret line of the first frontal armor block.Mark it as line----2.

{if you measure the distance between this line and the hull edge and compare it with the crew hatch dia ,it will give you an idea.}


just draw a two red perpendicular lines to the hull ,

their vertical height must be equal to the height of the turret.

Then join the ending of the two red lines on the hull,this line will lie just on the line ---2 you drew above by extending( the first side armor blocks on the side of the turret) bottom line of the turret from the front,

And extend the line down on the hull by a few more mm ,because the turret is located at least 200 mm above the hull.

it will fall on the third blurred corrugated line present on the hull besides the crew hatch,if you start counting from hull edge.

So if you measure the distance between the third corrugated blurred line on the and the hull edge it is no more than 15 mm,
While the crew hatch measures more than 200 mm on scale.

it is a standard practice in perspective drawing to project the pieces to their original to make the correct comparision.

Cutting a piece and pasting it 2 meters in front of where it should be placed like this is stupid.







And fit the crew hatch here,

your mistake can be seen.

If you places the crew hatch 2 meters in front , you are in effect presenting a distorted view of dimensions to suit your perspective.

So first thing first, we establish that you don't really speak the english language all that well. What I said first was not that is was a maybe dimension. What that actually meant was that the 550mm figure could posibly be derived from another source that is not the crew hatch hole.

Instead of just talking about it why don't you actually finish thos lines on the turret?? might show you your own mistakes, again I have provide you ample oppotunity to draw the lines on there ie: provided links to legal Photoshop.

Yes ofcause you think the picture is stupid because it showes that you are incapable of judging distance and perspektive. which is what it was meant to do, to show you wrong not to give an 100% accurate depiction of how the hatch would look mounted to the hulle like that.
STGN

 

[STGN]

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-259.html

post no-3881 posted by SKJ.

this is what i am repeating, he is taking the most convenient distorted measurements to suit his objective.
By measuring the turret length at a very different point on the photo from hull length he is givina a very distorted picture.

Most convinient? what is my objective? My only objective was to make accurate estimaion/aproximation of turret to hull relation. just so happens that it also proves you wrong. And because you can't disprove it you now resort to stating falsehoods(lie) about my drawings, trying again to discredit me. And because of this you are only digging your own grave deeper.
STGN

 

[ersakthivel]

So first thing first, we establish that you don't really speak the english language all that well. What I said first was not that is was a maybe dimension. What that actually meant was that the 550mm figure could posibly be derived from another source that is not the crew hatch hole.

Instead of just talking about it why don't you actually finish thos lines on the turret?? might show you your own mistakes, again I have provide you ample oppotunity to draw the lines on there ie: provided links to legal Photoshop.

Yes ofcause you think the picture is stupid because it showes that you are incapable of judging distance and perspektive. which is what it was meant to do, to show you wrong not to give an 100% accurate depiction of how the hatch would look mounted to the hulle like that.
STGN

First know the correct spelling-------it is perspective, not perspektive, from this I can estimate how deep is your perspective drawing knowledge.

I know you wont't do what I asked you to do in post no-1353,Since Pongal holidays are starting here ,I will post those corrected picture with perspective projection(not perspektive ) after a couple of days.

You will get some valuable tips on perspective drawing from my post.Bye

 

[ersakthivel]

Most convinient? what is my objective? My only objective was to make accurate estimaion/aproximation of turret to hull relation. just so happens that it also proves you wrong. And because you can't disprove it you now resort to stating falsehoods(lie) about my drawings, trying again to discredit me. And because of this you are only digging your own grave deeper.
STGN

SKJ said that the turret to hull ratio is 10:12---you can use your own calculator and get the calculations for turret:hull as per SKJ's estimate.