Arjun vs T90 MBT

[SPIEZ]

Removed????!!!!!!!!!
mate I put in more than 30 hours in it, be kind.

It's not because of you.

It's because we always look for approval at some foreign defense expert, who basically isn't one and that person is never gonna agree.

There was an article, which said that Arjun was a desert Ferrari, by Israeli experts. Now our own def expert argues against it (I believe), so it's a free for all against people with live experience and people with internet experience

 

[DivineHeretic]

We've got to stop looking for foreigners to approve of our product. We are the designers, the builders, the end users. This is a disgraceful hangover from our Colonial past and must be brought to an end. It should be us as end users who should approve or disapprove of our product. Whatever the opinion of the outsiders( especially constructive), is always welcome, but should not be taken as the word of God himself.

 

[sayareakd]

Arjun tank is within GSQR that is why IA has never raised any concern about its armor.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Arjun tank is within GSQR that is why IA has never raised any concern about its armor.

Actually in certain aspects, the arjun has exceeded the GSQR of the army manyfold, and this is evident by the shock & surprise demonstrated by the armored units after the competitive trials of the Arjun where it outmanuevred, ungunned and out-survived the T90 in extreme conditions. The only fault that the IA commanders can really moan about is the weight, but that is what you get when you employ the western benchmarks of tank performance.

 

[militarysta]

(...)

I answered for this post here:
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-259.html#post656478

 

[militarysta]

Then please post your opinion on my estimates in post no-1312 regarding ,

1.the Tc's seat's right hand side edge being located right at the center of the crew hatch hole.

2.There is a distance of at the most 250 mm between the inner side wall and the right side edge of Tc's seat is located.

3.So the distance between the turret center line and inner side wall is 630 mm+250 mm=880 mm

4.SO the outer most turret wall is located at( 3200mm/2) 1600 mm away from the turret center line.

5.So 1600 mm -880 mm i.e 720mm is the space available for composite armor on ARJUN turret side.

6.Even if you give an error factor of 200 mm,space available for composite armor on ARJUN turret side is (720 mm-200mm)= 520 mm.

7.Look closely and you will notice the side wall curving inside to offset the reduction in armor space besides the storage box that start at ammo storage,

8.So there is a provision of uniform armor space for the side turret of ARJUn if you accept the width of the turret as 3200 mm.

as it will clear many misconceptions about side armor space on ARJUn turret.

Whole estimatous is one big misake here.
1. Arjun turret width is 280-284cm in thickes place.
2. Arjun turret width is 234-240cm in on crews hatches place.
3. Avaible space for turret side "special armour module" is only in plece where are now toll boxes. There is no place inside turret for that - on loader site photos proof that:

On tank comander site there is not enought space to doue to placed of the commander panormaic sight block, and it's optical channel, and even for reson "armrest" for commander right arm. what is helly important...
4. Avable LOS for turret sides protection is 22-23cm per one turret side + 50-60mm turret side wall (present now).

IMPORTANT - all mesurment are based on draw from book "Kampfpanzer heute und morgen" in 1:72scale -if You find me life mseurment on Arjun tank, when there will be other "cm mesurment values" then I will change my estimatous and opinion.
Now I end of my tee.

 

[militarysta]

75cm road wheels, really? Makes the tank taller than an Abrams. Now wiki does say 2.37m height which is the same as M1 roof but other sources says 2.2 which I find more believable for a T inspired vehicle.
STGN
(...)
According to this page the front guide wheel of a T72 is 520mm in diameter and using that number the road wheels are 71cm in diameter. giving armor in the thickest part ~910mm

Please look again on picture whit my mesurment. I was taking in to account rubber bandages on wheel. Values given by You from btvt rather don't take into account rubber on wheel. For me more easy was to use whole whell width. And wheel whit rubber bandage is 747-753mm width. I check it on technical T-90 draw from otvaga2004.ru.

 

[STGN]

Please look again on picture whit my mesurment. I was taking in to account rubber bandages on wheel. Values given by You from btvt rather don't take into account rubber on wheel. For me more easy was to use whole whell width. And wheel whit rubber bandage is 747-753mm width. I check it on technical T-90 draw from otvaga2004.ru.

I was talking about the guide wheel at the front of the hull not the road wheels, btvt doesn't list road wheels unfortunately, that keep the track on the ground. the guide wheel is according to them 520mm in diameter which gives a total diameter of road wheels including rubber of 71 cm. Can you give me direct link to the T90 picture or page cause that is a big site and all the T90 links I clicked on didn't give me any drawings.
STGN

 

[ersakthivel]

First the turret is not 3.2 m in width as I have already shown. and just stating it out of thin air is not gonna make your calculations right.
Second As I have also shown, the turret is not symmetrical around the Arjun centerline so you can't just divide by 2 like that.
Third how do you measure center of crew hatch?
STGN

so what is your source for turret width of 2.5 meter?
it was because of the asymetry that I gave a large 200 mm allowance.

just look at the boot size of the two men, there is no more than two boot length on the arjun hull besides the turret is something any kid would understand,it is at the most 300 mm including the side skirts,
where is the space for 50 cm length?
the tank's width is 3.84 meter, you can estimate the turret width from this photo.

 

[ersakthivel]

Whole estimatous is one big misake here.
1. Arjun turret width is 280-284cm in thickes place.
2. Arjun turret width is 234-240cm in on crews hatches place.
3. Avaible space for turret side "special armour module" is only in plece where are now toll boxes. There is no place inside turret for that - on loader site photos proof that:

On tank comander site there is not enought space to doue to placed of the commander panormaic sight block, and it's optical channel, and even for reson "armrest" for commander right arm. what is helly important...
4. Avable LOS for turret sides protection is 22-23cm per one turret side + 50-60mm turret side wall (present now).

IMPORTANT - all mesurment are based on draw from book "Kampfpanzer heute und morgen" in 1:72scale -if You find me life mseurment on Arjun tank, when there will be other "cm mesurment values" then I will change my estimatous and opinion.
Now I end of my tee.

All the info above is base less.

just look at the boot size of the two men, there is no more than two boot length on the arjun hull besides the turret is something any kid would understand,it is at the most 300 mm including the side skirts,
where is the space for 50 cm length?
the tank's width is 3.84 meter, you can estimate the turret width from this photo.

 

[STGN]

so what is your source for turret width of 2.5 meter?
it was because of the asymetry that I gave a large 200 mm allowance.

just look at the boot size of the two men, there is no more than two boot length on the arjun hull besides the turret is something any kid would understand,it is at the most 300 mm including the side skirts,
where is the space for 50 cm length?
the tank's width is 3.84 meter, you can estimate the turret width from this photo.

I never said 2.5 I showed ~2.84:

If you think the picture can show how you are right you do it, but I am guessing you can't you have nothing but empty assertions and a skewed view of physical objects.

 

[ersakthivel]

I never said 2.5 I showed ~2.84:

If you think the picture can show how you are right you do it, but I am guessing you can't you have nothing but empty assertions and a skewed view of physical objects.

Arjun is shorter , wider , longer than LEO

One crew hatch cover measures 600 mm across,

Do you think there is space enough to fit more than half the crew hatch cover besides the ARJUN turret on the ARJUN HULL
NO is my answer.

You can only fit half a cover there.

So it must be no more than 300 mm. So 2x300 mm for both sides is 600 mm.

So 3800 mm-600 mm=3200 mm is the width of the turret.

So kunal's statement on ARJUN turret width of 3200 mm is spot on.

And also I don't see any asymetricla placement of crew holes in this picture,

For me the crew hatches seem to be situated at equal distance from the gun center point,

Am I right or wrong?




the one who gave the width of ARJUn Turret is the MOD KUNAL BISWAs, not me,He gave it months before this discussion started ,
In his discussions with Damain and Militarista,

He is the one who has seen the tank , and been inside it. Not you and me the other guys who have never seen the tank.
Since he is been away for a while , lets wait for his return to settle this issue.

It is he who disputed the flimsy armor specs advanced by Damain in this thread before you started posting.

So this 3200 mm is not my measurement, so that you are guess------" you can't you have nothing but empty assertions and a skewed view of physical objects" does not concerns me .

you are in effect questioning his measurement.

 

[STGN]

the one who gave the width of ARJUn Turret is the MOD KUNAL BISWAs, not me,He gave it months before this discussion started ,
In his discussions with Damain and Militarista,

He is the one who has seen the tank , and been inside it. Not you and me the other guys who have never seen the tank.
Since he is been away for a while , lets wait for his return to settle this issue.

It is he who disputed the flimsy armor specs advanced by Damain in this thread before you started posting.

So this 3200 mm is not my measurement, so that you are guess------" you can't you have nothing but empty assertions and a skewed view of physical objects" does not concerns me .

you are in effect questioning his measurement.

So you think that when the Arjun is pictured the turret shrinks then when it needs to shield an enemy shell it suddenly gets wider? or maybe just maybe this Kunal Biswas got it wrong?

And oh yes this does concern you, only you, it is you who have been pushing this number claiming again and again that even a child could see you where right. And now its time for you to either show how you where right or to admit that supporting Kunal Biswas claims was wrong given the present state of the evidence. Your don't get to walk away with your head held high. By just suddenly saying "uh oh it wasn't me". Admit you where wrong, prove your point or run away, the 3 options you have.
STGN

 

[ersakthivel]

if each crew hole measures about 550 mm in this picture,The ARJUN turret width must be 3200 mm using the same scale.

Because each crew hole measures 20 mm on the picture,In reality it is 550 mm minimum.

So a scale of 1mm on the computer screen equals 27.5 mm in reality,

So on the same crew hole axis if we measure the width of the turret it is close 120 mm on computer screen,

So 120 mmx27.5 mm=3300 mm in reality

 

[ersakthivel]

So you think that when the Arjun is pictured the turret shrinks then when it needs to shield an enemy shell it suddenly gets wider? or maybe just maybe this Kunal Biswas got it wrong?

Just put a scale on the picture below and check it yourself, Nothing needs to shrink or expand,
People just need to accept a fact once in a while, thats all.

And oh yes this does concern you, only you, it is you who have been pushing this number claiming again and again that even a child could see you where right. And now its time for you to either show how you where right or to admit that supporting Kunal Biswas claims was wrong given the present state of the evidence. Your don't get to walk away with your head held high. By just suddenly saying "uh oh it wasn't me". Admit you where wrong, prove your point or run away, the 3 options you have.
STGN

I did check KUNAL's measurement in this picture and this is the conclusive eveidence,

this is a production line photo of ARJUn turret every one in this forum is familiar with.

'


if each crew hole measures about 550 mm in this picture,The ARJUN turret width must be 3200 mm using the same scale.

Because each crew hole measures 20 mm on the picture in computer screen nad ,In reality it is 550 mm minimum.

So a scale of 1mm on the computer screen equals 27.5 mm in reality,

So on the same crew hole axis if we measure the width of the turret it is close 120 mm on computer screen between the two green lines,

So 120 mmx27.5 mm=3300 mm in reality

What else can I do?

 

[STGN]

Arjun is shorter , wider , longer than LEO
Who cares right now?

One crew hatch cover measures 600 mm across,
Lets say

Do you think there is space enough to fit more than half the crew hatch cover besides the ARJUN turret on the ARJUN HULL
NO is my answer.
Again with the skewed eyes, I have given you the tools to see your error

You can only fit half a cover there.
And again

So it must be no more than 300 mm. So 2x300 mm for both sides is 600 mm.
......

So 3800 mm-600 mm=3200 mm is the width of the turret.
......

So kunal's statement on ARJUN turret width of 3200 mm is spot on.
......

And also I don't see any asymetricla placement of crew holes in this picture,
......

For me the crew hatches seem to be situated at equal distance from the gun center point,
......

Am I right or wrong?
Wrong.



the one who gave the width of ARJUn Turret is the MOD KUNAL BISWAs, not me,He gave it months before this discussion started ,
In his discussions with Damain and Militarista,

He is the one who has seen the tank , and been inside it. Not you and me the other guys who have never seen the tank.
Since he is been away for a while , lets wait for his return to settle this issue.

It is he who disputed the flimsy armor specs advanced by Damain in this thread before you started posting.

So this 3200 mm is not my measurement, so that you are guess------" you can't you have nothing but empty assertions and a skewed view of physical objects" does not concerns me .

you are in effect questioning his measurement.

No not good enough try again.
STGN

 

[pmaitra]

Who first made this diagram?

 

[ersakthivel]

No not good enough try again.
STGN

See the photo in post no-1336 and check it yourself , and lets stop this once for all.

if each crew hole measures about 550 mm in this picture,The ARJUN turret width must be 3200 mm using the same scale.

Because each crew hole measures 20 mm on the picture in computer screen nad ,In reality it is 550 mm minimum.

So a scale of 1mm on the computer screen equals 27.5 mm in reality,

So on the same crew hole axis if we measure the width of the turret it is close 120 mm on computer screen between the two green lines,

So 120 mmx27.5 mm=3300 mm in reality

What else can I do?
And it is amply clear from that photo that there is a space of more than 600 mm besides the crew hatch on each side for side composite armor placements as per my calculation,

So people shafting the forum by giving arjun just 50 mm side armor thickness must admit their mistake for the sake of fair debate.

So we need not bother KUNAl at all.

 

[STGN]

'


if each crew hole measures about 550 mm in this picture,The ARJUN turret width must be 3200 mm using the same scale.

Because each crew hole measures 20 mm on the picture,In reality it is 550 mm minimum.

So a scale of 1mm on the computer screen equals 27.5 mm in reality,

So on the same crew hole axis if we measure the width of the turret it is close 120 mm on computer screen,

So 120 mmx27.5 mm=3300 mm in reality

Ah so we have determined your faults, measuring directly on computer screen, assuming baseless that crew hatch hole is min. 550mm which is quit a luxury size hole and of cause you get error when you make wrong assumption like that and assumption which doesn't fit when you use the numbers on other parts like the hull as My photo shows clearly. The crew hatch hole is smaller than 550mm it doesn't need to be that big to get human through hell a 400mm hole could get most people through.
STGN

 

[STGN]

Who first made this diagram?

I did, do you see an error?
STGN