Arjun vs T90 MBT

Godless-Kafir

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Well I doubt in on new Ajrun those toolboxes where replaced by armour module. And Im suprise why there is inspection hatch on left sie from main sight.
According to damian those are tool boxes where they keep screw drives and spanners to repair tanks and a possible sandwich just in case they get hungry inbetween changing tires. :rolleyes:

Actually those hooks are for cammo straping and for lifting the heavy blocks for change. Inspection hatch could be there in the last module on the turret which i have asked a reporter about and waiting clarification.
 

militarysta

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According to damian those are tool boxes where they keep screw drives and spanners to repair tanks and a possible sandwich just in case they get hungry inbetween changing tires. :rolleyes:
And it's very very possible that it's true.


Actually those hooks are for cammo straping and for lifting the heavy blocks for change.
If they are will be for cammo ther it will be more that "hooks" -so they are rather not for cammo.

Inspection hatch could be there in the last module on the turret which i have asked a reporter about and waiting clarification.
IMHO all modules on turret sides are boxes for smth. not "armour module".
 

Godless-Kafir

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And it's very very possible that it's true.



If they are will be for cammo ther it will be more that "hooks" -so they are rather not for cammo.


IMHO all modules on turret sides are boxes for smth. not "armour module".
I think you should go back a few pages and see the pics. Those are not tool boxes but armor blocks, particularly the first one.
 

ersakthivel

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Ok, let's say I agree, you convinced me.

As the first picture is good quality. It might be armor, or not.

If this is armor, then weak zone at frontal 60 degrees will be reduced to turret bustle only. This is improvement for Mk1, but still not 100% safe, because as far as we know, it does not have isolated turret ammunition rack. Although if such isolated ammunition rack will be present in Mk2, then situation definetly will significantly improve to the level represent by the best NATO MBT's.

The only thing that needs clarification here is
1. how far the ammo rack is there from the side turret storage box?
2.is there any thing protective placed between ammo rack and side turret storage or tool box's iner wall?
As for now, the situation might look like this. It is possible that different tanks have different configuration, so some might have only storage boxes, some might have this different type of box, that might be armor. Clarification needed.



Note! Drawing is imperfect, I was making it in a hurry, so it is only approx to the assumed reality.

As far as we can conclude from Arjun Mk1 design, the left side of turret (right side of drawing), have unprotected ammunition storage, so this is still danger zone for crew, reduced yes, but still dangerous untill ammunition storage won't be isolated (if it is not isolated on these, let's call them "improved" Arjun Mk1), however the right side (left side of the drawing), is more dangerous to the tank itself than crew. If Arjun Mk1 is more or less based on Leopard 2 design scheme, then in that part of turret bustle, there are radios, elements of FCS and turret servomechanisms, if this place will be hit, there is potential danger that vehicle will lost it's FCS, servomechanism or radios.

Can we agree with such opinion?
The answer to the above two questions will give the vulnerability of arjun's ammo rack.
 

Damian

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The only thing that needs clarification here is
1. how far the ammo rack is there from the side turret storage box?
2.is there any thing protective placed between ammo rack and side turret storage or tool box's iner wall?
1) Ammo rack in all tanks using one piece ammunition is approx 1,000mm long to permitt any improvements, for example longer APFSDS ammunition penetrators.
2) Only side turret bulkhead, storage box is only storage box, nothing else.

Most tanks have such configuration, the only solution is to completely isolate turret ammunition rack from crew compartment.
 

ersakthivel

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1) Ammo rack in all tanks using one piece ammunition is approx 1,000mm long to permitt any improvements, for example longer APFSDS ammunition penetrators.
2) Only side turret bulkhead, storage box is only storage box, nothing else.

Most tanks have such configuration, the only solution is to completely isolate turret ammunition rack from crew compartment.
Th4e following PDF has a comparison of leading MBT specs
http://ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf
 
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Damian

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Th4e following PDF has a comparison of leading MBT specs
http://ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/1796701917IPCS-Special-Report-23.pdf


heavier than Arjun by more than 10
tons and with much higher ground
pressure, performed remarkably well
in the desert sands during the first
Gulf War. The Arjun tank is not only
more agile that the T-90S Bhishma,
with a maximum speed of 72 km/h,
but also exerts less ground pressure,
thereby significantly reducing the
chance of 'sinking' in.
Specifications Abrams
M1A2 Leopard 2 Leclerc T-90S
Bhishma Arjun
Crew 4 4 3 3 4
Combat weight 69.54 tons 60.79 tons 54.5 tons 46.5 tons 58.5 tons
Ground Pressure 15.4 PSI 11.8 PSI 13.5 PSI 12.5 PSI 11.9 PSI
Engine 1500 hp
turbine
1500 hp
diesel
1500 hp
diesel
1000 hp
diesel
1500 hp
diesel
Max road speed 68 km/h 72 km/h 71 km/h 65 km/h 72 km/h
Cross-country speed 48 km/h 40 km/h 50 km/h 45 km/h 40 km/h
Protection against
Nuclear, Biological
and Chemical
Warfare
yes yes yes yes yes
Armament
Main gun 120 mm M256
smoothbore
120 mm M256
smoothbore
120 mm
smoothbore
125 mm
smoothbore
120 mm
rifled
Ammunition Type APFSDS
APFSDS-T
APFSDS and
HEAT
APFSDS and
HEAT
APFSDS, HEAT
and HESH
Co-axial machine gun 7.62 M 240
machine gun
7.62 mm
machine gun
7.62 mm
machine gun
7.62 mm
PKT
7.62 mm
PKT
Machine gun .52 Cal M2
machine gun
7.62 anti-aircraft
machine gun
12.7 mm
machine gun
12.7 NVST
machine gun
12.7 NVST
machine gun
Thermal Imager Yes Yes Yes Yes Yes
Rangefinder Laser Laser Laser Laser Laser
Price $ 5.4 mn $ 4.5 mn $ 4.5 mn $ 2.8 mn $ 4 mn
There is a lot of mistakes. The comparision table is preaty much amateurs work.
 

Shirman

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Guys pardon my presence here but i wanted to ask 1 question to Kunal Sir When will Indian T-90 S tanks have its SAAB LEDS 150 Last i heard that it won the hard kill system competition against Arena-e and Shtora respectively...
 

Kunal Biswas

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@shirman cloudboy ,T-90S as well as Arjun MK-1 might get Iron fist APS / SAAB LEDS 150, When its not known..
 
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Damian

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please point out the mistake for the sake of objective debate.
Yeah sure.

The Leopard 2 do not use M256 gun, but Rh-120/L44 or Rh-120/L55, M256 is based on Rh-120/L44 but is redesigned, and in the end is a different gun.

Also M1 series use more amunition tpes than APFSDS, it use also HEAT, MPAT, HEOR, Cannister, MPHE (the American designation for DM11) and soon AMP. Same goes for Rh-120, both guns can use the exactly same ammunition types.

The French Leclerc use CN120/26 L52 gun, this is not secret information, and yet, author have problems with providing gun designation. This gun also can fire the same types of ammunition as M256 and Rh-120.

The 2A46M series of guns, used in T-90 and such tanks, also can fire more types of ammunition than APFSDS and HEAT, there are also HE, HEF and GLATGM.

Now the weight. It seems that weight for Leopard 2, Leclerc, T-90 and Arjun is provided in metrict tons, while author provided weight for M1A2 in short tons. This completely ----s up any comparision, as it's makes M1A2 overweighted. If we converse 69.54 shorts tons we will have approx 63.08 metric tons weight.

Another thing is number of machine gun, in case of M1A2 it is improper. The tank have basic configuration of 3 machine guns:

1 x 7,62mm coax, 1 x 12,7mm TC machine gun and 1 x 7,62mm loader machine gun, configuration might be changed, for example TC can use 40mm automatic granade launcher, 7,62mm machine gun or 5,56mm machine gun on his pintle mount or RWS.

Also the gun mantle mask have aditional mounting point for a 12,7mm machine gun, that is slaved to th main gun and connected to FCS just like 7,62mm coax, which makes it just another, heavy calliber coax.

These are the mistakes that were the most serious in my opinion.
 

p2prada

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Guys pardon my presence here but i wanted to ask 1 question to Kunal Sir When will Indian T-90 S tanks have its SAAB LEDS 150 Last i heard that it won the hard kill system competition against Arena-e and Shtora respectively...
That info came from Prasun Sen Gupta. You don't believe him until it actually happens.
 

Decklander

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The two pix which I posted had two tanks each. One had Arjun and TankEX the other had T-90SM and T-90S. Seems I misquoted the Pix.
 

Shirman

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@p2prada

Sir, Armored protection system are absolutely necessary if we are going against Type 90 IIm, T-80UDs,Type 98s etc. If its a Hard kill system like IMI Iron fist or Saab LEDS-150 it WILL ensure the survive-ability of our precious tank crews at lest by 20 to 50% as advertised then it cannot be ignored. The reason was that i had info of some competition not from Prasun but from some defense contractor which i wont name.
 
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p2prada

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@p2prada

Sir, Armored protection system are absolutely necessary if we are going against Type 90 IIm, T-80UDs,Type 98s etc. If its a Hard kill system like IMI Iron fist or Saab LEDS-150 it WILL ensure the survive-ability of our precious tank crews at lest by 20 to 50% as advertised then it cannot be ignored. The reason was that i had info of some competition not from Prasun but from some defense contractor which i wont name.
Prasun was quite sure that Saab LEDS-150 has been chosen.

Hard kill APS is most probably part of the upgrade package for T-90, we know Arjun will have it.
 
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shuvo@y2k10

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arjun mk2 is one of the top tanks of the world today.with it's 65+ton weight it is comparable to the latest versions of abrams,challenger,leopard,merkava.now the corruption and arms lobby in the army is not allowing the arjun to inducted in mass but the army would be the biggest loser if tincans as opposed to arjun is inducted.the t-90s deals should be scraped immediately and instead we need large no. of arjuns as it can handle the terrain in our western border with pakistan.also if we do need a light tank in our northern borders drdo can produce a lightweight arjun as it did a few years ago by marrying a t-72 hull with a arjun turret.
 

JBH22

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arjun mk2 is one of the top tanks of the world today.with it's 65+ton weight it is comparable to the latest versions of abrams,challenger,leopard,merkava.now the corruption and arms lobby in the army is not allowing the arjun to inducted in mass but the army would be the biggest loser if tincans as opposed to arjun is inducted.the t-90s deals should be scraped immediately and instead we need large no. of arjuns as it can handle the terrain in our western border with pakistan.also if we do need a light tank in our northern borders drdo can produce a lightweight arjun as it did a few years ago by marrying a t-72 hull with a arjun turret.
How do you justify the scrapping of the huge investment made for inducting the T-90 be it infrastructure, crew training, ammunition etc?

Arjun is a tank just like the T-90 its not an invincible machine as to DRDO well we don't have the luxury to wait for another 20 years.

For Northern borders if only government developed infrastructure this would also show the Indians there that we care about them a good road is not like asking for the moon.
 

t_co

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The T90 and Arjun are in completely different weight classes and hence fill totally different battlefield roles. The Arjun is a 58 ton tank designed to fight long-range tank duels as part of a heavy mechanized force. It has thick armor and a 450km operational range. The T90 is a 47 ton tank designed to perform fast envelopment and exploit gaps blown by heavier formations. It has thinner armor and a 700km operational range.

There are many things the Arjun is well-suited for which the T90 is not--for example, battling across open desert at long ranges, in zones of good logistical support; and vice versa, such as fighting in regions with deep, un-fordable rivers and in areas where resupply is more difficult.

Massing up one type of tank for both roles is a mistake, especially for a military that straddles as varied a terrain as India's. What would be a much better strategy would be to introduce as many common systems as possible between the Arjun and the T90, so that research money spent on one project can be cross-applied to the other and simplifying resupply, yet retaining the unique characteristics that make each tank desirable.
 

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