Arjun vs T90 MBT

[pmaitra]

@Damian, @ersakthivel, @methos, @militarysta, @LurkerBaba

So the following drawing produced by Damain and methos actually pertains to the discarded tank -Ex and not the ARJUN.

Where is the drawing? Remind me again?

 

[ersakthivel]

Where is the drawing? Remind me again?

Sorry .I failed to include it in the first draft ,I have added it in the same post again.please look above.

 

[ersakthivel]

Home another image for leopard below.

This the arjun turret image posted before in this thread

As I explained above is the first storage box slot in the turret(just beside the crew hatch) is converted into armor as it is already done on arjun then the side protection for leopard and arjun seems to have no big difference without additional ERA.

Once this is done then the distance between Arjun crew hatch and turret side will be the same as the distance between LEo crew hatch and turret side.
That's why I always doubted how people at CVRDE can fail even in copying the basic protection level of in protection leo on to be protuced arjun

And if we look at the round hole before the right side crew hatch in arjun turret,
it is placed exactly at the same distance from side turret wall like LEO.
But what is the round knob before the left side crew hatch on arjun turret? It is not there in leo.

The impotant question is whether this hole ends on the side turret plate for some fitment or( it opens inside the crew compartment? signifying the thickness of side armor plate) not?

Because this hole is not there in leo.

 

[pmaitra]

ODTX: One Dimensional Time-to-Explosion Method

For those that might be interested: LINK

This relates to this post.


@Damian

 

[Decklander]

I request all members to read my posts regarding the extended side armour plates on Arjun MK1. The tank is very well protected on the sides and Damian has been basing his arguments on very old prototype pix which have very little in common with operational Arjun tanks.

 

[Damian]

If you only have a proof that there is armor not tool box. Because that part is still not welded to the turret structure. I would really like a proper close up photo to be certain.

Do you know what official secrets act is?

What kind of oath is taken under the act? the real people will need clearance from the top even to give an interview even for information that is not classified .

You and I can holdforth forever ,which tank is best.But writing a book to advertise all the info on arjun for any cvrde guy must have official sanction from MOD, DRDO and host of other agencies as well.

And what, they will not receive clearence to write a book? This sounds like a complete paranoia.

 

[ersakthivel]

If you only have a proof that there is armor not tool box. Because that part is still not welded to the turret structure. I would really like a proper close up photo to be certain.

Tool box after the first side turret armor has padlocks and locks.
The first armor plate after the frontal plates side protrusion has none of them.
In a similar manner the socond box and third box can also be done away with and replaced by armor like the first box,that is what decklander is saying.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...d-fighting-vehicles-/articleshow/8747840.cms?

P Sivakumar, director, Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), got the scientist of the year award for 2010 from Defence minister, A K Antony. It was given to him for his contributions in the development of transmission system for armoured fighting vehicles.

 

[Damian]

Tool box after the side turret armor has padlocks and locks.The first armor plate after the frontal plates side protrusion has none of them.

Which does not mean it is armor, you see it have completely no sense to use modular armor only in this part of vehicle, if rest of armor is classic semi-modular design. Why not just weld this thing to the turret structure for better integrity?

I Know that there are concerns about fully modular armor system over the world, I think the reason are much bigger chances to loose armor integrity after hit. Also the attachements of armor to the turret structure needs to be very solid to hold this armor in one place, not even during movement but especially when hit.

 

[ersakthivel]

Which does not mean it is armor, you see it have completely no sense to use modular armor only in this part of vehicle, if rest of armor is classic semi-modular design. Why not just weld this thing to the turret structure for better integrity?

I Know that there are concerns about fully modular armor system over the world, I think the reason are much bigger chances to loose armor integrity after hit. Also the attachements of armor to the turret structure needs to be very solid to hold this armor in one place, not even during movement but especially when hit.

that applies to wherever armor is attached not just the sides.The point is you made your drawing based on tank -ex which was a discarded model with an older prototype arjun turret.

And as per your own admission you have no idea about any spec of arjun.

From where did you get your so called ARJUN drawing(which is actually tank ex in the above picture.)?
Look it is a discarded prototype with letters as EX TANK on it.That is your drawing.Refer to the picture in your post no-481 in page -33.

You were actually explaining this tank.
ARJUn is below.

 

[Damian]

Type Arjun MBT drawing in the google.

Arjun Mk-I main battle tank technical data sheet specifications information description intelligence - Army Recognition - Army Recognition

And here it is, from armyrecognition site, a very good site, I think I had even an offer from one guy that works there to meet at MSPO 2012 and talk a bit, though I couldn't go there unfortunetely.

 

[ersakthivel]

Type Arjun MBT drawing in the google.

Arjun Mk-I main battle tank technical data sheet specifications information description intelligence�-�Army Recognition�-�Army Recognition
See that was an older prototype of arjun whose turret was mounted on T-72 chasis to make tank-ex.
The operational one whose picture I posted and videos I posted dont have the first storage box and no padlocks and locks.Thats what decklander said repeatedly.
And here it is, from armyrecognition site, a very good site, I think I had even an offer from one guy that works there to meet at MSPO 2012 and talk a bit, though I couldn't go there unfortunetely.

See the below one of the older model with NARASHIMA RAO PM of india in it with three storage boxes.

You can find those older turret of arjun and new turrets of arjun all over the net.Which one you choose is your choice,


The one below is the new operational ones taken at a recent republic day parade with two storage boxes.

 

[Damian]

The only way to be certain is to take a closer look on the real thing. But screw this, the photo you just shown, the suspension is lower than normally, at least it looks like this. Arjun have a standard hydrogas suspension, or hydrogas suspension with scalable ground clearence level?

 

[ersakthivel]

The only way to be certain is to take a closer look on the real thing.

Why you seem to have some big fake books on tank design with all the info,
So your stuffed self can determine the weakness of a tank just by looking at a few pictures on the net.
So who needs a closer look?
.

But screw this, the photo you just shown, the suspension is lower than normally, at least it looks like this. Arjun have a standard hydrogas suspension, or hydrogas suspension with scalable ground clearence level?

Yes, the best way is to get rid of toolboxes, and weld there RHA or higher hardness steel plates to create cavity for composite armor, later tool boxes or ERA or anything else can be mounted to such cavity outside.

The above quote is what you wrote in post no-514.now you see that on the picture.is it right?

What do you know about arjun?
You are faking here to be a know all expert.you dont know where the armor plate is, and what is the suspension?
First write what you know about arjun with some source.
.When the discussion is on the fake drawing you produced of tank -ex with 3 storage boxes on side turret ,why are you jumping to suspension?
Who screws whom will be known at the end of debate.Why hurry?

 

[Apollyon]

Let us assume there is an obstacle O in the middle of a free space, and a robot A has to move in a way it does not collide with the obstacle. The robot has 2 degrees of freedom (can move in x and y direction, but cannot rotate), and is represented as a triangle, with the dot as a reference point.

Image courtesy Steven LaValle.

Now, what are the positions that the robot can be in? That will be defined by a locus traced by the reference point keeping the robot at all places as close as possible to the obstacle without colliding. This is shown by the larger polygon in the image below, which contains the obstacle and is called the obstacle space. Whatever is outside this polygon is the free space.

Image courtesy Steven LaValle.

You can understand more about motion planning in free space involving obstacles if you read Chapter 4 (The Confguration Space) of the book PLANNING ALGORITHMS by Steven M. LaValle. The book is freely available, and is a great collection to have. [LINK]

[HR][/HR]

Off Topic : One of the most basic Path Planning Algorithm : https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-8983
Great Book @pmaitra

 

[Damian]

What do you know about arjun?

I know enough, more than you.

You are faking here to be a know all expert.you dont know where the armor plate is, and what is the suspension?

I know where armor plate is, you do not understand what I am writing. As for suspension, I know that Arjun use hydrogas suspension, there are however two subtypes of this suspension, one without regulated ground clearance, used in Leclerc or Challenger 2 for example, and second with regulated ground clearance used in South Korean K1 for example. Arjun is not shown to have such capabilities, although on this specific photo, the ground clerance seems to be lower.

First write what you know about arjun with some source.

What source, there is no source about Arjun, as you said, nobody can write even a goddamn book about it, so what source you have in mind? Some silly internet sites? I don't know that you even been on university, but when I was learning on university, one of my teachers said that most of the internet is not a source by any means for people of science, the only materials in the internet that can be used as a sources are official documents, books or their fragments found there, where there is author, a publisher and a bibliography.

But I understand that for people that did not learn on university it is not known fact.

.When the discussion is on the fake drawing you produced of tank -ex with 3 storage boxes on side turret ,why are you jumping to suspension?
Who screws whom will be known at the end of debate.Why hurry?

What fake drawing? And what Tank-EX, the turret and hull on drawing are Arjun, you do not see it, or maybe you do not know that Tank-Ex use T-72 hull, where driver sits in the center line of hull not on the right side like in Arjun?

And why I am jumping to suspension, because this interested me at this moment. You do not understand this, that person might be interested in many different things?

Or what is it, your personal war with me? You do not need to like me, I do not like you, but give yourself a brake fanboy, I am not here to have a conflict with person that have mental problems and seek enemies to fight with them.

 

[ersakthivel]

I know enough, more than you.



I know where armor plate is, you do not understand what I am writing. As for suspension, I know that Arjun use hydrogas suspension, there are however two subtypes of this suspension, one without regulated ground clearance, used in Leclerc or Challenger 2 for example, and second with regulated ground clearance used in South Korean K1 for example. Arjun is not shown to have such capabilities, although on this specific photo, the ground clerance seems to be lower.

See archers post in this same forum to know more about suspension.Because I have no intention of starting another troll war over that.Go to archer's page and try reading it. If you cannot find it as you are afraid of net as per your professor's statement I will try to post it for you.

What source, there is no source about Arjun, as you said, nobody can write even a goddamn book about it, so what source you have in mind? Some silly internet sites? I don't know that you even been on university, but when I was learning on university, one of my teachers said that most of the internet is not a source by any means for people of science, the only materials in the internet that can be used as a sources are official documents, books or their fragments found there, where there is author, a publisher and a bibliography.

How many books are written on a product that is yet to see service in significant numbers anywhere in the world?
Just now IA accepted the tank giving it a good certificate and indicated it's willingness to base the future MBTs as arjun-mk-3 and 4 and so on.

But I understand that for people that did not learn on university it is not known fact.

Which university teaches you to estimate armor thickness with just seeing a few photographs and which university teaches you to use fowl words liberally in a serious discussion.

Which university teaches you that people in CVRDE dont know turret geometry?
And don't even know to copy the leo side turret properly?


Which university teaches you to take a ten year old discarded tank-ex turret model and fake it on the net all over the forums as operational arjun model?
It is this despicable habit that makes internet a dangerous place as your professor told you,nothing else.

What fake drawing? And what Tank-EX, the turret and hull on drawing are Arjun, you do not see it, or maybe you do not know that Tank-Ex use T-72 hull, where driver sits in the center line of hull not on the right side like in Arjun?

And why I am jumping to suspension, because this interested me at this moment. You do not understand this, that person might be interested in many different things?

We need to discuss topics one by one.For the past two years arjun turret weakness was your interest and you were showing the older prototype turret model all over the net as genuine drawing and saying arjun turret protection is a joke.
Now when a few photographs are posted to just even suggest otherwise your interest is shifting to SUSPENSION at the moment.WHy?

Or what is it, your personal war with me? You do not need to like me, I do not like you, but give yourself a brake fanboy, I am not here to have a conflict with person that have mental problems and seek enemies to fight with them.[/QUOTE

Mods here are lenient does not mean you can curse the other guy forever and wont be rebuked forever.If you use decent language you will get a decent reply.

AND teenage tank experts calling others fanboy is such an irritating thing.

I have no personal problem with you.But PEOPLE SHOULD ALWAYS POST SOMETHING TRUTHFUL .And should not pass off their pet ideas like how the hell indians can design a modern tank without any experience? as gospel of truth.That is my problem.

Well you can continue to post.I will not bother you on the turret side armor issue again, because I know you have no explanation.
Now you can shift your attention to your recent interest i.e SUSPENSION, and continue the debate with other members.

 

[Decklander]

Bro Sakthivel,
Leave this thread for Damian to post his idiotic postings. This guy is not open to any kind of suggestions and debate. he is living in his own world which has no windows and no body with opposing views is welcome in that world.

 

[sayareakd]

I know enough, more than you.

Just off the topic, if person say that he know enough then his thirst for knowledge is no longer their.
May be he has become enlighten one.

 

[ersakthivel]

Bro Sakthivel,
Leave this thread for Damian to post his idiotic postings. This guy is not open to any kind of suggestions and debate. he is living in his own world which has no windows and no body with opposing views is welcome in that world.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/indian-army/9558-arjun-main-battle-tank-mbt-226.html
Right Mate.

Kunal has already clarified about this in this page(post no-3389 page -226) to him about the issue in the above link.But he is still consistently saying that this is not the reality.

Please read the above link where this guy is having the same discussion with kunal over the same issue.

Kunal said this modification is carried out for mk-2. So it is possible to upgrade them on mk-1 as well.

But these same baseless allegation is repeated again all over the net in all arjun threads as if it is a killer defect of arjun by these same guys.

Otherwise I would not have gone into such a lengthy argument with him over this.

The same issue was once again discussed to death in main battle tank armor thread of this forum by the same guy.

But still passing off some tank-ex drawing and insisting that the arjun side turret has no protection cannot be a simple act of ignorance I suppose
If someone posts something they don't like these guys resort to using fowl words and name calling and provoking the other guy to use the same language dragging down the discussion.


But no amount of discussion is any use is my final conclusion.You are right.

 

[Defcon 1]

Don't fight people, otherwise this thread will also go down the drains like the LCA thread. There is nowhere written that you have keep posting till the other person agrees with you or runs away. Just agree to disagree and move on.