Arjun vs T90 MBT

[SPIEZ]

Another tank thread bites the dust

 

[JBH22]

While the fighting goes on some facts:

1- T-90 will become the backbone of the armoured corps given the increasing orders (recently six regiments ordered)

2- Arjun tank capped at around 124 tanks replaced T-55 (is it a feat)

3-T-72 are being modernised

We can go enumerating conspiracy theories how corrupt babus,IM officers are or how Arjun tank has been sabotaged the list will be endless better accept the bitter truth and get over. Its sad to see that indigenous product not being able to make it had it been successful it would have herald great future for our defence industry.

 

[Damian]

See archers post in this same forum to know more about suspension.Because I have no intention of starting another troll war over that.Go to archer's page and try reading it. If you cannot find it as you are afraid of net as per your professor's statement I will try to post it for you.

I am only asking about suspension you blockhead, I am not interested in any debate, because in my opinion, the suspension used for Arjun was the best decision made so far. I want only to know if it can do the same things like "kneeling" like some other MBT's. That's all.

How many books are written on a product that is yet to see service in significant numbers anywhere in the world?
Just now IA accepted the tank giving it a good certificate and indicated it's willingness to base the future MBTs as arjun-mk-3 and 4 and so on.

When M1 or Leopard 2 were not inducted in significant numbers, there were allready people writing about their development, for example Orr Kelly written King of the killing zone about M1 development phase.

Which university teaches you to estimate armor thickness with just seeing a few photographs and which university teaches you to use fowl words liberally in a serious discussion.

Which university teaches you that people in CVRDE dont know turret geometry?
And don't even know to copy the leo side turret properly?


Which university teaches you to take a ten year old discarded tank-ex turret model and fake it on the net all over the forums as operational arjun model?
It is this despicable habit that makes internet a dangerous place as your professor told you,nothing else.

None university as these are my own observations. The argument about university is that when I was studying history, proffesors were clear, internet is not a good source, what do you not understand here?

Oh and one more thing.

Which university teaches you that people in CVRDE dont know turret geometry?
And don't even know to copy the leo side turret properly?

So you claims that engineers at CVRDE are the same copycats as Chinese are... wow this is advertisement for India!

You are occupied with your hate towards me, that you not even understand what you write.

We need to discuss topics one by one.For the past two years arjun turret weakness was your interest and you were showing the older prototype turret model all over the net as genuine drawing and saying arjun turret protection is a joke.
Now when a few photographs are posted to just even suggest otherwise your interest is shifting to SUSPENSION at the moment.WHy?

Because at that moment I was interested in suspension, this is why you blockhead, why I can't discuss about one thing and ask about another? You are incapable to discuss about several things in one time?

Mods here are lenient does not mean you can curse the other guy forever and wont be rebuked forever.If you use decent language you will get a decent reply.

Oh, I have a good reasons to use such langages, because I hate pseudo patriotic fanboys like you.

AND teenage tank experts calling others fanboy is such an irritating thing.

I have more than 20 years, and you call me a teenage? Well at least I do not hide my age as you do.

I have no personal problem with you.But PEOPLE SHOULD ALWAYS POST SOMETHING TRUTHFUL .And should not pass off their pet ideas like how the hell indians can design a modern tank without any experience? as gospel of truth.That is my problem.

Well you did not show any hard proof to counter my argument + that your behavior like insane pseudo patriot fanboy. Look at yourself, you are incapable to write normally, even incapable to quote properly someones post, this is how emotional you are.

Well you can continue to post.I will not bother you on the turret side armor issue again, because I know you have no explanation.

Oh I am 100% sure that if we would discuss in front of Arjun MBT, where I could explain everything better, you would appologize me by kissing my boot.

Now you can shift your attention to your recent interest i.e SUSPENSION, and continue the debate with other members.

As I said many times, I am supporter of such suspension like Arjun use, of course you in your crusade against me, do not even know this, and you do not even understand that my criticism of Arjun is not kill this tank, but to point out weaknesses, and where improvements are needed.

But it seems that for all mentally ill pseudo patriots, any such actions is same blasphemy as someone would insult their mother.

Leave this thread for Damian to post his idiotic postings. This guy is not open to any kind of suggestions and debate. he is living in his own world which has no windows and no body with opposing views is welcome in that world.

Yeah right, because you know me very well.

Just off the topic, if person say that he know enough then his thirst for knowledge is no longer their.
May be he has become enlighten one.

Why so? Thirst of knowledge is allways there. If I know enoughfor that moment, and more than all of you about M1, this means that I do not have thirst to know more about it, sure I have, although I know the limitations of being civilian and do not having access to classified informations.

 

[ersakthivel]

while the fighting goes on some facts:

1- t-90 will become the backbone of the armoured corps given the increasing orders (recently six regiments ordered)

2- arjun tank capped at around 124 tanks replaced t-55 (is it a feat)

3-t-72 are being modernised

we can go enumerating conspiracy theories how corrupt babus,im officers are or how arjun tank has been sabotaged the list will be endless better accept the bitter truth and get over. Its sad to see that indigenous product not being able to make it had it been successful it would have herald great future for our defence industry.

this news was current when the dinos roamed the world

 

[ersakthivel]

i am only asking about suspension you blockhead, i am not interested in any debate, because in my opinion, the suspension used for arjun was the best decision made so far. I want only to know if it can do the same things like "kneeling" like some other mbt's. That's all.



When m1 or leopard 2 were not inducted in significant numbers, there were allready people writing about their development, for example orr kelly written king of the killing zone about m1 development phase.



None university as these are my own observations. The argument about university is that when i was studying history, proffesors were clear, internet is not a good source, what do you not understand here?

Oh and one more thing.



So you claims that engineers at cvrde are the same copycats as chinese are... Wow this is advertisement for india!

there are thousands of sites allover the net that say design consultancy was taken for arjun.it was you who refused to believe this all the time.not me

you are occupied with your hate towards me, that you not even understand what you write.

i love you very much.if it is not for your valuable insights on arjun all over the net in so many other threads, i wont be posting in this thread at all.

because at that moment i was interested in suspension, this is why you blockhead, why i can't discuss about one thing and ask about another? You are incapable to discuss about several things in one time?

i will wait to discuss suspension with you till a book comes out on arjun.why hurry?

oh, i have a good reasons to use such langages, because i hate pseudo patriotic fanboys like you.

thank you very much for saying i am patriot.

i have more than 20 years, and you call me a teenage? Well at least i do not hide my age as you do.

there is a saying.wisdom does not always matures with age ,some times age shows up all alone.

well you did not show any hard proof to counter my argument + that your behavior like insane pseudo patriot fanboy. Look at yourself, you are incapable to write normally, even incapable to quote properly someones post, this is how emotional you are.



Oh i am 100% sure that if we would discuss in front of arjun mbt, where i could explain everything better, you would appologize me by kissing my boot.



As i said many times, i am supporter of such suspension like arjun use, of course you in your crusade against me, do not even know this, and you do not even understand that my criticism of arjun is not kill this tank, but to point out weaknesses, and where improvements are needed.

But it seems that for all mentally ill pseudo patriots, any such actions is same blasphemy as someone would insult their mother.



Yeah right, because you know me very well.



Why so? Thirst of knowledge is allways there. If i know enoughfor that moment, and more than all of you about m1, this means that i do not have thirst to know more about it, sure i have, although i know the limitations of being civilian and do not having access to classified informations.

well thanks for educating me. I would n'ot argue with you any more.you can post all your views freely here.
End of discussion.

 

[JBH22]

this news was current when the dinos roamed the world

so please update my knowledge Sire

 

[Godless-Kafir]

@Damian literally drove this thread into the gutter. Good work damian.

Your crappy posting and denial over arjuns side armor is stupid to say the least. When you can say the Type-90 has side armor but deny the arjun has any only shows how silly you are.

Even after you saw Kunals post and my post on side armor pictures you deny based on your own standards of hinges for some reason.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some points i like to clear..

1. Presently, Partial part of Arjun Sides are not Armored where boxes are located for tools..

2. MK 2 sides are possible Armoured, Will get more good pics and info soon..

 

[Damian]

@Damian literally drove this thread into the gutter. Good work damian.

Your crappy posting and denial over arjuns side armor is stupid to say the least. When you can say the Type-90 has side armor but deny the arjun has any only shows how silly you are.

Even after you saw Kunals post and my post on side armor pictures you deny based on your own standards of hinges for some reason.

It is interesting to see, how easy is to you to criticize others, but self criticism do not exist.

Neither anyone, was interested when I said about Arjun strong points in design.

And @Kunal actually supports my view, at least partially.

 

[ersakthivel]

It is interesting to see, how easy is to you to criticize others, but self criticism do not exist.

Neither anyone, was interested when I said about Arjun strong points in design.

And @Kunal actually supports my view, at least partially.

The above are newer arjun mk-1 tanks ready for delivery posted by kunal. same side turret arrangement like this one below.

So without help from abroad CVRDE seems to have achieved armor placement in the place of first storage box.
What is inside the first side block in place of the storage box(after the frontal turret armor block) can be clarified only by kunal.
You can see only two storage boxes if you look closely on the first tank's side turret..

compare this to the arjun in the older pictures with three storage boxes.

It is slated to improve further in mk-2 with placement of kanchan composite armor blocks as per kunal's view..

So you can revisit your ideas regarding side turret armor protection in 60 degree arc again.You could easily have mistaken the older arjun picture as new one and done the drawing.
It is quiet common as there are many versions of arjun pictures roaming the net.And not much clarity on the design.

 

[Damian]

Ok, let's say I agree, you convinced me.

As the first picture is good quality. It might be armor, or not.

If this is armor, then weak zone at frontal 60 degrees will be reduced to turret bustle only. This is improvement for Mk1, but still not 100% safe, because as far as we know, it does not have isolated turret ammunition rack. Although if such isolated ammunition rack will be present in Mk2, then situation definetly will significantly improve to the level represent by the best NATO MBT's.

As for now, the situation might look like this. It is possible that different tanks have different configuration, so some might have only storage boxes, some might have this different type of box, that might be armor. Clarification needed.



Note! Drawing is imperfect, I was making it in a hurry, so it is only approx to the assumed reality.

As far as we can conclude from Arjun Mk1 design, the left side of turret (right side of drawing), have unprotected ammunition storage, so this is still danger zone for crew, reduced yes, but still dangerous untill ammunition storage won't be isolated (if it is not isolated on these, let's call them "improved" Arjun Mk1), however the right side (left side of the drawing), is more dangerous to the tank itself than crew. If Arjun Mk1 is more or less based on Leopard 2 design scheme, then in that part of turret bustle, there are radios, elements of FCS and turret servomechanisms, if this place will be hit, there is potential danger that vehicle will lost it's FCS, servomechanism or radios.

Can we agree with such opinion?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Though i still need to take some hires pics to conform 3 points :

1. Side Armour..
2. Plates at side of chassis..
3. Some measurements..

Till then we have our theories at hands..

 

[Godless-Kafir]

It is interesting to see, how easy is to you to criticize others, but self criticism do not exist.

Neither anyone, was interested when I said about Arjun strong points in design.

And @Kunal actually supports my view, at least partially.

There was self criticism and that is why i accepted the side armor was lagging didn't i?

However now after Kunal pointed it out i clearly can see based on pictures that this is an armor block on the side. Not sheet metal which looks thin.

You dont accept that based on it being Indian. Why on earth would any scientist leave such a gaping hole in the armor?

 

[Damian]

Why on earth would any scientist leave such a gaping hole in the armor?

There can be plenty of reasons.

 

[Decklander]

given Below are the pix of Arjun MK1 and T-EX which is T-72 with Arjun turret.. These are of actual operational tanks. Pls note the side armour on Arjun

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6wb2_VJG3...Ctw/Ngpp32V0FgI/s1600/Arjun+Mk1+&+TANK+EX.jpg

This pix below is that of T-90SM and T-EX. Note that T-90SM has remotely fired AA gun.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gUrb-vs-bB4/UMTOS7_aRCI/AAAAAAAACt8/J7jZsGoUYGs/s1600/T-90AM+&+T-90S.jpg

 

[Decklander]

Pls see the pix of T-90SM in the link below and note the differences in its turret design which seems to have borrowede heavily from Arjun.
Asian Defense: T-90S modernized T-90SM - main battle tank
So if a tank tries to bcum the copy of another tank, you know which is better of the two.

 

[Damian]

Pls see the pix of T-90SM in the link below and note the differences in its turret design which seems to have borrowede heavily from Arjun.
Asian Defense: T-90S modernized T-90SM - main battle tank
So if a tank tries to bcum the copy of another tank, you know which is better of the two.

Why do you think it is a copy? T-90MS have a slightly longer turret to store more electronics + armored box for spare ammunition bolted to it's rear. The sides are however protectd by ERA cassettes because tank is prepared also for assymetric warfare.

However the overall shape of T-90MS turret is still the same as in T-90S.

 

[militarysta]

About Ajrun side armour.

It's really interesting why side armour have inspection hatch -it's wery simmilar to very erly Leopard-2AV hull.
Fact that there is hatch may be naccesery for easy replace some part of armour - cermaics or simple NERA layers. More or less it's slighty outdated idea, but it was used when armour was more simple then now -in 1970s. It's interesting.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

About Ajrun side armour.

It's really interesting why side armour have inspection hatch -it's wery simmilar to very erly Leopard-2AV hull.
Fact that there is hatch may be naccesery for easy replace some part of armour - cermaics or simple NERA layers. More or less it's slighty outdated idea, but it was used when armour was more simple then now -in 1970s. It's interesting.

It has come a long way from the 70s. What armor inspection hatch do you point to?

 

[militarysta]

It has come a long way from the 70s. What armor inspection hatch do you point to?

Well I doubt in on new Ajrun those toolboxes where replaced by armour module. And Im suprise why there is inspection hatch on left sie from main sight. But IMHO there is no change and tool box is still prsent on turret sides -not "new" Kachan armour module. It's just change tool box. Take a look on top of it - im almoust sure that it's not armour... On picture posted by ersakthivel there are clearly visible two details - eacht one haven't sense in "armour module" variant:
1) somthing whitch look like cap from fuel insert
2) whole top of that box is very thin but corner of that top is on..corner of that box - not like in that place (right from main sight) in center of "special armour" module. It haven't sense whe we tink about "special armour" but have a lot sense when this box is still...box for something diffrent then armour.
3) the hight of that "box" in not enought to cover Ajrun ide turret hight -it's haven't sense too. There is a lot of space to place ther full hight (the same as turret) module, but this what we can see have smaller hight then turret.

So IMHO thea are two options : first -Ajrun developers are idiots and after 30years the are not able to create "special armour" cavity whit propper dimiensions and they placed smthing like fual cap "becouse of that" -propably we can throw that option becouse Ajrund developers seems to not be idiot and they known what they want to developed, so we have second option - those box is still box not "special armour module" -but it's prepere for somthing diffrent then "tool box" from older Ajrun. So it has closed on top of the box, and fual cap for smth.diffrent. It's all -I just offer to not regard Ajrun developers as a idots unable to create special arour cavity for armour, or armour module.


BTW: armour cavity can looks like that:

And no "inspection hatch" is needed.