Arjun vs T90 MBT

[Damian]

The T90 and Arjun are in completely different weight classes and hence fill totally different battlefield roles.

Both are Main Battle Tanks so they are designed to fill the exactly same role.

The Arjun is a 58 ton tank designed to fight long-range tank duels as part of a heavy mechanized force. It has thick armor and a 450km operational range. The T90 is a 47 ton tank designed to perform fast envelopment and exploit gaps blown by heavier formations. It has thinner armor and a 700km operational range.

Weight have nothing to do with protection. The front turret armor thickness of both Arjun Mk1/Mk2 and T-90S will be comparable, approx ~800mm at 0 degrees from turret longitudinal axis. T-90S is lighter only because it is a smaller vehicle. In simple less internal volume means less armor surface that needs to protect it which in the end means less weight.

Massing up one type of tank for both roles is a mistake,

Many countries use only one type of Main Battle Tank, because what it's classification code says, is a Main Battle Tank. MBT was tank class, designed to replace both Medium and Heavy tank classes with one, single class that have a protection and firepower of a heavy tank (actually superior to heavy tank) with mobility of medium tank (in fact superior to medium tank).

I find it fascinating that people outside former WarPac or NATO, are mostly unable to understand this.

 

[sayareakd]

I find it fascinating that people outside former WarPac or NATO, are mostly unable to understand this.

yeah because we did't put our head to kill each other in cold war.

 

[Damian]

yeah because we did't put our head to kill yeah other in cold war.

Well yeah, it is truth that Cold War if would become Hot War, would be a meatgrinder, on the other hand gave us incredible kick in the R&D programs, as well as technology and other important things.

However the Main Battle Tank class is know to humanity from the ending period of WWII, when in Germany there was idea of Standardpanzer, in UK and also probably USA as Universal Tank and in Soviet Union as Основной танк (Osnovnoi tank) which later evolved in to Kampfpanzer in Germany, Main Battle Tank in USA, UK and other countries which use english, and Основной боевой танк (Osnovnoi boevoi tank) in Soviet Union.

And hey, but you put your heads to kill eachother... India vs Pakistan?

 

[ersakthivel]

Both are Main Battle Tanks so they are designed to fill the exactly same role.



Weight have nothing to do with protection. The front turret armor thickness of both Arjun Mk1/Mk2 and T-90S will be comparable, approx ~800mm at 0 degrees from turret longitudinal axis. T-90S is lighter only because it is a smaller vehicle. In simple less internal volume means less armor surface that needs to protect it which in the end means less weight.



Many countries use only one type of Main Battle Tank, because what it's classification code says, is a Main Battle Tank. MBT was tank class, designed to replace both Medium and Heavy tank classes with one, single class that have a protection and firepower of a heavy tank (actually superior to heavy tank) with mobility of medium tank (in fact superior to medium tank).

I find it fascinating that people outside former WarPac or NATO, are mostly unable to understand this.

I too should admit that I harassed damian quite a bit in the old arjun thread arguing for long that higher weight means more armor all over.
IMHO a bit more internal volume is welcome if there are any more addition of capacity needed inside the tank for future active protection system and safer storage of ammo in canisters and compartmentalizing the tank so that one seep through explosion in one area will be contained in that area alone without affecting the whole tank and keeping ammo safe.

.But not very certain about that.

 

[sayareakd]

And hey, but you put your heads to kill eachother... India vs Pakistan?

yeah..............LOL but the technique is quite low if we compare to your (western) standards.

Lets talk tanks.

 

[Damian]

IMHO a bit more internal volume is welcome if there are any more addition of capacity needed inside the tank for future active protection system and safer storage of ammo in canisters and compartmentalizing the tank so that one seep through explosion in one area will be contained in that area alone without affecting the whole tank and keeping ammo safe.

This is actually not problem of the internal volume per se, but vehicle configuration. The biggest problem is just manned turret that adds to much unnececary internal volume and weight.

It needs to be said, the configuration with manned turret is just inefficent and expired any of it's future potential. However there is a small light in a dark tunnel for manned turrets.

These are CNT's, ANDR's and amorphic metal alloys, although these materials won't be in use for probably some time even in nearest future, but then again, tank with unmanned turret with armor made from these materials still will be more efficent.

yeah..............LOL but the technique is quite low if we compare to your (western) standards.

It is because of scale.

 

[sasi]

To get an idea on side armour- Arjun mk2

~

 

[Damian]

Funny thing is that graphic is one of the early concept graphics of Japanese Type 10 MBT, not Arjun Mk2.

And you really needed to post exactly the same thing in 3 different topics? How exciting!

BTW, the author of this article says that Indian Army inducted T-70 tank... he means this?

Another reason why mass media journalists should not write about things they do not have a smallest idea about.

 

[ersakthivel]

Funny thing is that graphic is one of the early concept graphics of Japanese Type 10 MBT, not Arjun Mk2.

And you really needed to post exactly the same thing in 3 different topics? How exciting!

BTW, the author of this article says that Indian Army inducted T-70 tank... he means this?

Another reason why mass media journalists should not write about things they do not have a smallest idea about.

Whatever the guy wrote on T-70, the supposed updates of arjun on which he wrote were correct.As for the figure after the upgrades arjun wont look very different from the one in pic.So it is no way a fiction.

 

[Damian]

the supposed updates of arjun on which he wrote were correct.

And I nowhere said the opposite.

As for the figure after the upgrades arjun wont look very different from the one in pic.So it is no way a fiction.

So what? All the suddes Arjun will transform in to Type 10? As I said, the graphic shows one of the early concepts of Japanese Type 10, which is a very different design.

So it is typical journalist misinterpretation, and another reason why the military things should be described only by specialized military magazines. Are there any such magazines in India?

 

[sasi]

Are u frusturated pic may be wrong,didn't bother notice the illustration.

 

[Damian]

I am more disappointed with lack of proffesionalism.

 

[ersakthivel]

I am more disappointed with lack of proffesionalism.

come on damian ,every once in a while every one gets some drawing wrong,
Don't you remember?'
What is the big fuss then?
It would look something like that. Thats all.

 

[Damian]

come on damian ,every once in a while every one gets some drawing wrong,
Don't you remember?'

My drawings were correct per the basis on which they were drawn.

What is the big fuss then?

Journalists are poorly educated idiots, they should have no right to comment things they do not have even smallest idea about.

It would look something like that. Thats all.

No, neither you, neither me, neither that journalist know how Arjun Mk2 will be looking like in the final production variant. And using a concept graphic of a completely different tank, only expose how stupid are people that done that. That's all.

Writing about military should be left for specialized military magazines and people who specialize in this subject, not by people that mostly don't see a difference between MBT, SPH and IFV and call all of them a "tank".

 

[Decklander]

Arjun is our tank for assault/strike corps now. This is not a part of strike formations as of now bcoz the logistics involved is only suited for russian junk. IA has to create the logistics for this tank which will take time. These tanks are now being inducted into Pivot Corps which are part of Cold Start Doctrine(CSD) and will be the first ones to cross IB. The lack of logistics has caused these tanks to be given to those formations which are in field so that time reqd for them to move into their battle positions is kept to minimum. This tank outranges T-90 by hundreds of Kms when taken into consideration the APU which it has. I have read the posts by chinese friends here calling it short in range and fit only to fight battles on Pak border. The problem is not so. Rommel outstreched himself in Africa and paid a price for that. Repeated excercises by IA using CSD have brought out a fact that land over run in enemy terrotory upto a distance of 50Kms in a day can only be held successfully given the reqt of logistics and follow up infantry to hold on to that area to protect the flanks and consolidate the gains.

 

[Dejawolf]

seems to me that Damians drawings are correct. it is obvious that the space between hatch lid and side turret side is larger than on the leopard 2.

you can compare here the tubular thing with hook on the roof, the ventilator slot, the antenna, and the loaders vision block. for them to fit inside the turret, the walls HAVE to be as thin as damian showed. it's pure basic logic.

 

[ersakthivel]

seems to me that Damians drawings are correct. it is obvious that the space between hatch lid and side turret side is larger than on the leopard 2.

you can compare here the tubular thing with hook on the roof, the ventilator slot, the antenna, and the loaders vision block. for them to fit inside the turret, the walls HAVE to be as thin as damian showed. it's pure basic logic.

If you Have done any engineering drawing with plan view , elevation and side view all in one sheet you could have spotted each and every mistake in damian's drawing.

to begin with the tank on the leftside corner above inside hull picture is an old discarded tank -ex and the one on the right is arjun in production line.

You have marked everything wrong here.

The stuff you circled in red in the top right corner is right in front of the crew hatch and is aligned with almost the center point of the crew hatch circle.

You are connecting it with a mounting that is to the left of the crew hatch circular hole well away from the center point of the crew hatch circle.

Another mistake is the photo on the top belongs to discarded tank -ex turret and the one below is that of arjun crew compartment .

And the antena is right beside the center point of crew hatch in tank ex,You have related it to an item that is near the edge of the crew hatch in the arjun inside hull picture.

The turret top side picture on top belongs to two different version. And the one in the left is a close up and the one in the right is a long shot.But you can notice the gap between crew hatch and side wall appears same in both the pics meaning the one on the right has 3 times more space than the one on the left because the right side photo is a long shot.

 

[Dejawolf]

If you Have done any engineering drawing with plan view , elevation and side view all in one sheet you could have spotted each and every mistake in damian's drawing.

i have. i've made over 100 3d models of armoured vehicles in my 10 years of working for Esim games.

here, let me show you with a quick and dirty 3d model what me and damian is seeing, and you fail to see:

in the 2 lower interior pictures, the marked edges of the real picture and 3d model is comparable, yes?
camera is in a similar angle.
well, look what happends when you turn the camera a bit...

 

[Damian]

Dejawolf can you then estimate Arjun Mk1 armor thickness by using a 3d model? At least for the turret side surfaces?

 

[sayareakd]

Dejawolf can you then estimate Arjun Mk1 armor thickness by using a 3d model? At least for the turret side surfaces?

sir even you can do it with this free 3D software from google sketch

Trimble SketchUp

this is good for laymen like us to 3D models.