Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Dejawolf]

There are other pictures in the same post which clearly shows the Tc seat head rest at 250 mm behind front turret tip, for which you have not replied,

The loaders seat width can be used to calculate the gun sledge width, which was also drawn with wrong dimensions by you,

Your gun sledge width comes to more than 500 mm but in reality it should be around 300 to 400 mm.

what is a "gun sledge" ?

 

[Dejawolf]

There are other pictures in the same post which clearly shows the Tc seat head rest at 250 mm behind front turret tip, for which you have not replied,

The loaders seat width can be used to calculate the gun sledge width, which was also drawn with wrong dimensions by you,

Your gun sledge width comes to more than 500 mm but in reality it should be around 300 to 400 mm.

well, here's a picture which clearly shows you haven't got the faintest clue about what you're talking about.

 

[ersakthivel]

well, here's a picture which clearly shows you haven't got the faintest clue about what you're talking about.

the red line is where the gunner seat back rest must be according to the photos,

The gap between the yellow line and the green line is the LOS behind the main sight at around 800 mm.

There were many photos I uploaded on the same time in the post you mentioned, one was the loaders seat, it has nothing to do with LOS estimate,

I challenge you to show where I used this photo for LOS estimation,

dude thats a pic of the tank ex interior and not arjun. its a smaller tank turret.

DEFEXPO 2004 - Part 2

Also the above photo on which you based your 3D model belongs to tank -EX as said by
@Archer

So your 3D model draw below were actually not that of Arjun but Tank -Ex,

In the picture below you can clearly see the gunner seat much closer to the center of the turret,

In fact the gunner's seat ends closer to the start of the main sight cutaway,

If we assume the Tc seat finishes close to the end of the main sight cutaway ,then

We clearly see the most of the knee space required for TC passes over Gunner's right shoulder,

But in your picture it is wrongly represented with gunners seat starting at the start of main sight cut away and finishing with the end of the main sight cutaway,



You can also see that in blue mango film,

 

[ersakthivel]

the red line is where the gunner seat back rest must be according to the photos,

The gap between the yellow line and the green line is the LOS behind the main sight at around 800 mm.

There were many photos I uploaded on the same time in the post you mentioned, one was the loaders seat, it has nothing to do with LOS estimate,

I challenge you to show where I used this photo for LOS estimation,



Also the above photo on which you based your 3D model belongs to tank -EX as said by
@Archer

So your 3D model draw below were actually not that of Arjun but Tank -Ex,

In the picture below you can clearly see the gunner seat much closer to the center of the turret,

In fact the gunner's seat ends closer to the start of the main sight cutaway,

If we assume the Tc seat finishes close to the end of the main sight cutaway ,then

We clearly see the most of the knee space required for TC passes over Gunner's right shoulder,

But in your picture it is wrongly represented with gunners seat starting at the start of main sight cut away and finishing with the end of the main sight cutaway,



You can also see that in blue mango film,

@militarysta, @STGN, @ersakthivel, never followed this thread as too much discussion over just one point. But I think that the height in your pic where it is 578 mm(for Militarysta), it should be approx 630mm. This I get from 2 below drawings(ignore the techie terms as I'm not into much).

First one -

from here we get the height of turret where the man stand as approx 75 CM.

2nd one - from this we can deduce that the wrt the height of 75 CM the height at front is approx 627MM where you are mentioning 573mm.

I have also cut the part of image and put it next to standing Man in turret and it almost equals to the height of standing man realistically.

So the 750 mm space in the turret bustle will contain the Tc's knee space, because the head of the gunner alone is in the turret bustle and most of the gunner's body is in the hull if my estimates are correct.

In fact even as per your own measurement the distance C is only 1200 mm.

So the LOS behind the main sight is more than double of what you arrive at with your flawed model.

 

[ersakthivel]

what is a "gun sledge" ?

It doesnot matter if you know what gun sledge is or not,

The drawing below is a much better representation of Arjun turret and it shows the LOS behind the main sight clearly.

The yellow rectangle is the main sight cutaway measuring 700 mm on scale. And the distance between the end of the inlaid photo and the back edge of the main sight cutaway is the armor thickness behind main sight. It is around 800 mm approx.

Note the vision blocks above the Tc's head in the in laid photo clearly matches the edge of the crew hole in the line drawing with scale and dimensions.

The rough draw may not be upto scale, it is a rough and ready alteration of what militarista posted to communicate my point of view.

1. A ----------the distance between gun mantlet plate front tip and the back edge of the main sight cutaway= 700mm according to your previous posts.

2. B ----------- The distance between the back edge of the main sight cutaway and the opening for roof top vision block inside Arjun turret (the back edge of the main gunner's sight block is in vertical line with roof top vision block opening inside Arjun turret) = 600 mm(LOS for composite armor)


3. C ---------- the distance between the back edge of the main gunner's sight block and the gunner's seat back head rest=600 mm.

4. D ------------the distance between the gunner's seat back head rest and the vertical standing crew hatch cover in the line drawing posted below = 600mm. gunner's seat back head rest is in vertical straight line with the front arc edge of the round crew hole.

So A + B + C + D = 700 + 600 + 600 + 600 = 2500 mm.


1.The red rectangle marked measurement A starts at the gun mantlet plate tip and ends at the main sight cutaway back side edge.

2. The blue rectangle signifying B starts at the where A ends and stops at back edge of the gunner's main sight bloc back edge.


3. The yellow rectangle C starts at the point where B ends and stops at the back side of the gunner's seat headrest's back edge.


4.The green rectangle D starts at where C ends and stops at the swivel or the base of the vertical standing crew hatch cover base in the only line drawing dimensions posted in this post above.


1. the length of A-------The red rectangle's length is 700 mm.

2.The length of B-------The red rectangle's length is 600 mm.

3.The length of C-------The red rectangle's length is 600 mm.

4.The length of D-------The red rectangle's length is 600 mm.

A + B + C + D =2500 mm.

The end of the green rectangle D is exactly at 2500 mm from the front tip of the gun mantle plate according to the drawing with dimensions from where you supposedly took you measurements for your 3D model.

The following photo validates my measurement of the length of the green (D) and yellow(C) rectangle.

1.The Tc seat edge the ending point of the yellow rectangle is situated at 2500 mm behind the gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.

2.The gunner's seat , the ending point of the yellow rectangle is locate at at 2000 mm from gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.

3.Since the Tc himself has just 600 mm seat breadth the gunner too will have the same 600 mm. So the ending point of the blue rectangle is at 1500 mm from gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.

And the photo above is a clear proof that the roof top vision block brings light into the Arjun turret in a slanting rectangular channel at the point of the end of the blue rectangle i.e a point in vertical line with the back side of the gunner's main vision block with binocular like eye pieces.

4.Also since the main sight cutaway stops at 700 mm from the gun mantle plate tip ,

according to the line drawing with scale measurements the ending point of the red rectangle , is locates at 700 from the gun mantle plate tip according to the line drawing with scale measurements.


So 1300 mm- 700 mm =600 mm is the LOS armor thickness behind the main sight without any doubt.

And the roof top vision block brings light to the gunner's main vision block through a slating rectangular channel.

If the main sight is pushed up like the latest model LEOs the Arjun can have 300 mm more LOS behind the main sight than any LEO model, because it's turret is longer and lower than LEO.

So any 380 mm LOS or 300 mm LOS behind the main sight is pointless according to the photo proofs
So all the four consistent continuous measurement marking arrow lines will give you undeniable evidence of very strong protection behind Arjun main sight back side contrary to your views based on faulty 3 D model is my opinion based on the line drawing and the photographs in this page,

But I have never seen the Arjun tank . So I don't claim it is the concrete truth from my first hand experience of arjun. but the measurement leaves no doubt , especially Arjun turret is not only shorter and wider , but longer than Leo- 2 as well. it is this small crucial detail you omit.

So even as per the above photo of yours the distance C+D=1200 mm only.


@Archer

Is the above measurement correct?

 

[methos]

The drawing below is a much better representation of Arjun turret and it shows the LOS behind the main sight clearly.

You still fail to see that the vision blocks at the commander's cupola don't fit?

 

[ersakthivel]

You still fail to see that the vision blocks at the commander's cupola don't fit?

The vertical hatch in BR line drawing is right above the Tc seat head rest, This is the 2500 mm point.

The vision block above the Tc head is behind this 2500 mm mark,

Why?

Because if you see the top view the entry hole into the turret for TC and the loader is not perfect circle, with the lid at the edge of the circle

.A fourth of the circle is cut off to position the base pivot for the hatch closing cover,

It is these base pivots of the hatch cover that lie at 2500 mm point behind the turret tip.

But the vision block follows the full circle placement and just behind the pivot of the hatch cover base,

Give me proof of one official line drawing which shows the position of vision block 2500 mm behind the turret front tip, I will accept it.

The red line on which Dejawolf has written Tc seat back is the 2500 mm point AFAIK. the base pivot lies at that point, not at the point where he has made the 2500 mark with his black and white marker.

If you still have any doubt look at the BR line drawing with dimension below,

See the wrong placement of the 2500 mm mark by Dejawolf in his drawing above compared to the scaled drawing below,

if you still can not agree with it I don't know how to explain it.
@Dejawolf

If Dejawolf has honest intentions why is he not marking the distances A, B, C, D concurrently as I have done in my drawing?

He is afraid that his mistakes will be shown up,There is nothing more to it.

Look at the pivot base of the hatch cover in the picture below . It is right under the vertical standing hatch covering lid and it is this point that is shown to be 2500 behind the turret front gun covering plate tip in BR scale drawing.

But if you look at the place where he has marked 2500 mm with a black and white marker,

HE places the PIVOT BASE well behind the standing vertical hatch cover, That is simply wrong way to mark

The point where he has written as Tc seat back is the place where the base pivot of the vertical standing hatch cover is located.

It is this point that is marked as being 2500 mm behind the turret tip in BR drawing and it is right below this point the Tc seat head rest is shown in various photos taken over the top of the hatch.

So marking the position of the vision block behind the Tc seat head rest as a 2500 mm point is simply wrong is my estimate.

If you still have doubts look at the pic below, where the Tc seat head rest is almost in line with the pivot base of the vertical standing crew hatch cover. Are you sure there is a 250 mm distance between the two?

Now way. Because 250 mm is more than the radius of the crew hole. There can be a maximum 30 to 50 mm distance between the pivot base on the top and the Tc seat head rest.

Also see how a fourth of the circle is cutoff in a straight line and on that straight line the pivot base is located.Vision block above the Tc head is well behind the pivot base is my idea.

 

[methos]

Your "explanation" is completely unrelated with the fact that the center vision block (which is parallel to the image's plane) in the drawing is simply ~48% larger than the vision block in the photograph you inserted into the drawing (which btw. is also taken from a completely different perspective).

 

[ersakthivel]

Your "explanation" is completely unrelated with the fact that the center vision block (which is parallel to the image's plane) in the drawing is simply ~48% larger than the vision block in the photograph you inserted into the drawing (which btw. is also taken from a completely different perspective).

Why are you talking vision blocks again?

Where did I use the position of vision block to mark 2500 mm point?

In fact which official line drawing shows vision block's distance from the turret front tip as 2500 mm?

Give me a source and proof.

In whatever perspective drawing a vertical line will always show whether two different objects are vertically in line or not.

If they are in line a vertical line will connect them.

Just draw a vertical line on the pivot base and it will fall on the Tc seat head rest.

It will never fall on the vision block behind the TC seat head rest. In fact it will fall well in front of that vision block.

It is the position of this pivot base of the hatch cover that is 2500 mm behind the turret front tip not the vision block behind the TC head rest.

Do you agree or not?

 

[methos]

Your images are wrong, because they are based on faulty assumptions about how the photographs from the interior can be connected to the scale drawing from Bharat Rakshak. You simply put a photograph, taken from a completely different angle, scaled it wrong and afterwards you claim that would be "a much better representation of Arjun turret and it shows the LOS behind the main sight clearly".

 

[ersakthivel]

Your images are wrong, because they are based on faulty assumptions about how the photographs from the interior can be connected to the scale drawing from Bharat Rakshak. You simply put a photograph, taken from a completely different angle, scaled it wrong and afterwards you claim that would be "a much better representation of Arjun turret and it shows the LOS behind the main sight clearly".

So I should take that as the end of discussion perhaps, It will be a long time before I accept you to be my professor of perspective drawing to explain the angles of photographs and scaling.

Since I myself have cleared 6 drawing papers in my Mech Eng class with 80 plus percentage marks in all six of them, I won't need your valuable advice either.

If you have such doubts about comparing different angles of photographs then why did you joined the debate once before by using a chinese face width of 147 mm to scale a Indian Arjun tank turret?

Didn't it occur to you at that time that we cannot make any useful measurements based on photos take from different angles?

 

[ersakthivel]

I cannot say for sure, Until there are photo evidence here which will be only during 2014 ..[/QUOTE]

See the first of the three pictures,

Where is the end point of the main sight cut away and where is the end point of the gunner's seat?

Gunner seat edge is located almost behind the middle point of the main sight cut away,

The edges of the main sight cutaway and the edges of the Tc's seat are not in line as dejawolf insists them to be in his drawings.


A large portion of the gunner's seat is right behind the gap between the gun covering plate and the main sight cut away which is heavily armored
about half the gunner seat is behind the big gun covering plate on the turret front.

Only half the gunner's seat is behind the main sight cut away.

And if the orange vision block in front of the gunner is located at the middle of the gunner's seat, (because main sight instruments have their eye piece at one of their corners) there should be some offset between the position of the gunner's seat and Tc.

So this seating arrangement in the picture which places the center point of the gunner's seat right behind the center point of the main sight cutaway is clearly wrong based on the photo above,

 

[Dejawolf]

If Dejawolf has honest intentions why is he not marking the distances A, B, C, D concurrently as I have done in my drawing?

He is afraid that his mistakes will be shown up,There is nothing more to it.

i will do it, prove you wrong, then you will change the subject, as you've done a thousand times before, and claim i never adressed the issue.

 

[ersakthivel]

nah, it's got more to do with your opinions being worth less than the shit under the soles of my shoes.
i will do it, prove you wrong, then you will change the subject, as you've done a thousand times before, and claim i never adressed the issue.

Not So fast ,

If you use language like this , Your posts will be deleted for bad language,

And I really don't like to see your posts getting deleted,

Since you are my pet punching bag here, I will really mourn the loss.

The more you try the more you are going to prove your monumental stupidity in front of the whole world,

If I am in your position , i would think not twice , but hundred times before embarking on such a foolhardy Journey,

For a person who does not know tank ex from Arjun these words too brave,

I am at a loss to understand what the hell you proved thousand times?

And when did I change the subject every time you did that,

So please quote those posts where you achieved those great victories, i will try to change my views,

My veins are not made of adamentanium and my brain is not filled with unobtanium like yours,

So there is even a remote possibility I may change those views,

Thanks,

 

[Dejawolf]

Not So fast ,

If you use language like this , Your posts will be deleted for bad language,

And I really don't like to see your posts getting deleted,

Since you are my pet punching bag here, I will really mourn the loss.

The more you try the more you are going to prove your monumental stupidity in front of the whole world,

If I am in your position , i would think not twice , but hundred times before embarking on such a foolhardy Journey,

For a person who does not know tank ex from Arjun these words too brave,

I am at a loss to understand what the hell you proved thousand times?

And when did I change the subject every time you did that,

So please quote those posts where you achieved those great victories, i will try to change my views,

My veins are not made of adamentanium and my brain is not filled with unobtanium like yours,

So there is even a remote possibility I may change those views,

Thanks,

LOL. i'm going to frame this, it's ershaktivel in a nutshell.

 

[ersakthivel]

LOL. i'm going to frame this, it's ershaktivel in a nutshell.

Well , I don't want to drag it all night,Better get some sleep and start afresh tomorrow ,Right?

And of course you need that trophy very much, So I will give you the consolation prize and it is all yours,

But one inconvenient point in that trophy is , it is written that ,"in the picture below" meaning there is another picture below it and it was only that picture i was referring, Any way I won't trouble you more on that count.

Thanks,

shall we finish?

 

[Dejawolf]

And of course you need that trophy very much, So I will give you the consolation prize and it is all yours,

Thanks,

shall we finish?

i've got 12 more trophies like these.
how about you mark those ABCD in my pic first, to show everyone how wrong you are?
then i can have a 14th trophy.

 

[ersakthivel]

i've got 12 more trophies like these.
how about you mark those ABCD in my pic first, to show everyone how wrong you are?
then i can have a 14th trophy.

So you don't know to mark dimensions?

too bad for such an avid trophy hunter!!!!!!!!!!!

For further conversation of this intimate nature , there is a chit chat thread provided here,

So we can move our there to continue on this purposeful mission,

SO lets end it here , NOW,

 

[militarysta]

If the main sight is pushed up like the latest model LEOs the Arjun can have 300 mm more LOS behind the main sight than any LEO model, because it's turret is longer and lower than LEO.

especially Arjun turret is not only shorter and wider , but longer than Leo- 2 as well. it is this small crucial detail you omit.

Is the above measurement correct?

no it's not.
No single of your ideas is correct:

Both draw in the same scale (I had rescaled Arjun draw to the same scale as Leo-2A4 draw.).






And Yes, in arjun end of backplate is in the same place when in Leo-2 is additional turret roof periscope for loader. But in Leo-2 is in HALF of the armour cavity (circa 325mm) and in Arjun is in the end. And LEo-2A4 have smaller EMES-15 sight block then Arjun sight. More or less - again - LOS after main sight in Arjun is half or less then half LOS after main sight in leo-2A4.


PS.the common pont is turret base line, not track or hull. The aim was to compare turret dimension, not whole tank!

 

[SilentKiller]

Arjun WIP

can u also try on Arjun Mk2, if possible.
Thanks!!