Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Yusuf]

After Choppergate, nothing seems impossible

 

[Bhadra]

Oh no Sir.

Arjun was being rejected by vested interests and not because it was not a good system. The DRDO stood up to that and forced a face off and proved its worth against the T90.

If india has to move on the path of locally produced weapons systems, all round adaptation is required.

Sir,
We are discussing a tank that meets our requirement..

Do you mean to say Arjun is not a vested interest ?

What percenatge of it is indegenious ?

And who would rake the mullaha in imports of 80 percent foreign component Arjun?

 

[Yusuf]

Sir,
We are discussing a tank that meets our requirement..

Do you mean to say Arjun is not a vested interest ?

What percenatge of it is indegenious ?

And who would rake the mullaha in imports of 80 percent foreign component Arjun?

80% foreign components? Please back this claim

 

[p2prada]

Is it not Arjun is more mobile than T90S ?

Saraswat's words are not clear enough to indicate if he was referring to a heavier tank to a lighter tank as a whole or was he comparing the Arjun Mk2 to the latest T-90MS.

We know that Arjun is as mobile as the T-90 in deserts. However there is no scope for improvement on Arjun without a new engine. We don't have a new engine which handles greater weight whereas the T-90 has a much better upgrade process.

If you compare Arjun Mk1 with T-90S, they are more or less the same. If you compare Arjun Mk2 and T-90MS, the situation is drastically in favor of the T-90MS.

But apart from mobility, there are other aspects to a tank's weight which can affect war preparations. For eg: if I give you a train that can transport around 2000 tonnes. I can carry 41 T-90MS vs only 29 Arjun Mk2s. See where the logistics argument sticks up. I end up needing two trains just to move a regiment of Arjun tanks. We took a month to move most of our assets to the border in the past, with Arjun we may end up taking twice that time.

Oh no Sir.

Arjun was being rejected by vested interests and not because it was not a good system. The DRDO stood up to that and forced a face off and proved its worth against the T90.

If india has to move on the path of locally produced weapons systems, all round adaptation is required.

There were no vested interests. Arjun was ready for inductions 10 years after the T-90 as inducted.

There was merely no scope for Arjun inductions.

If you read some of Decklander's earlier posts, he was critical of more T-90MS orders over Arjun Mk2. But he agreed with me when I said there was no scope for Mk1's induction into the force and the T-90 was the only choice.

It is one or the other, not both.

 

[Bhadra]

80% foreign components? Please back this claim

Ok what percentage then ?

The question is about critical components .. Do we make engines, gun, ammunition, elctronics, suspensions ?


Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Arjun is Indian design and made tank with Indian made FCS by Bel, Gun ARDE, Suspension, Transmission, Tracks, Armour, All Electronics made by BEL .

Only the Engine is German, The percentage of imported parts are 20% in present Arjun MK-1, rest 80% is Indian made..

 

[ersakthivel]

If an order for 124 tanks were given which industry will invest in new facilities to produce components locally? it is a loss situation for them. There in lies the motive behind the piecemeal orders in batches of of 124. CVRDE is asking for an order of at least 500 tanks for some level of break even and local production. But Army is refusing that number.

You can move 40 T-90s in place of 20 Arjuns , Agreed. But in battlefield the story will be very different. You will be losing more T-90s compared to ARJUN even in the case of seep through fire from minor mine explosions on the ground because of unsafe ammo storage.This is witnessed in all the battlefields where the T-series fought, regardless of the protection offered by ERA tiles.

Army's T-90 trials were conducted in Russia not in Indian desert condition before placing a huge order of 1000s of tanks. When the first batch arrived there was simply panic when the tank failed in desert trials with FCS and all the electronics packing up in Indian summer heat.

Crew men couldn't face the heat inside cramped compartment and fainted due to heat strokes. the army was looking for Air conditioning to solve this problem. But the Ac has to be fitted externally as there was no space inside the tank. And it will fail first even in case of a few splinters hitting it.The problem is yet to be solved.

All the electronics were rectified locally with the help of french firms. what is more to make it appear as though the T-90 is cheap many crucial technologies which would have driven up the tender price of the T-90 was not included in the tender.Important tech that was not included for local production is composite armor and gun barrel tech which was made up with the tech developed for ARJUN.

SO the process of ordering T-90s in thousands were carried out when the tank was not in an operational condition fit for the Indian heat conditions(we still may not know the true picture and only time will tell). Contrast it with the ARJUN which even after proving it's worth is only being given token orders in numbers like 124 , from which no localization of foreign parts is possible. Even if we take the share of desert area of RAJASTHAN border an order of 500 tanks would have been justified.

But ARJUN withstood the summer heat with heat hardened electronics, better network centric capacity, and with enough crew comfort for prolonged operation. In fact it is the most accurate tank in Indian army according to the MOD report submitted to Parliamentary standing committee. But all these factors are glossed over. Because only 124 tanks were ordered ammo development is also lagging behind. It is a chicken -egg situation perpetrated by the piecemeal approach of army orders.

But it is pointedly refused and instead T-90 MS order is being rushed through to bury ARJUN quickly, saying this is not ready that is not ready. So all western nations that are operating these near 60 ton tanks are fools bogged down by poor logistics losing wars?

What about the cold start doctrine which envisages stationing of Armored columns closer to border for a swift attack. In this case the delay in transportation is minimal because the tanks will be near forward areas.

People often pretend to forget the reason for ARJUN's excess weight. It is for better survivability to influence the battle outcome.
Everyone knows that. It has space enough to store ammo safely and enough standby power to operate all electronics with substantial high power APU even in silent standby mode like the western tanks.

And four men crew are fatigue free in long drawn out campaigns. It has the best net centric tank in IA. And it's gun is more accurate than anything in IA.It is for this reason that Army quietly burried 50 ton FMBT project and instead going to focus on further Arjun models to fill the shoes of fancy FMBT.

A 1800 hp light weight diesel engine development with Ashok Leyland is planned which will contribute substantially to weight reduction effort and better power to weight ratio along with higher local contents thereby reducing the costs,

But with just 124 ARJUN tanks being ordered this new engine development is not going to progress.Same is the case with rubber tracks manufactured locally for ARJUN by MRF . The facility is now closed because of want of orders.

After doing all these shameful things to ARJUN we will marvel at the Chinese ability to produce tanks and fighters and rate their industrial capacity as ADVANCED than India. If this like these happened there sure heads will role.

 

[SilentKiller]

Well India should keep on developing Arjun.
Ok if Arjun MK1 fell short, we went for MK2
and if more improvements are required.....like reduction in weight, add auto loader might reduce weight.
and bring such changes in MK3.

But now india should stick to arjun tank, way israel kept its faith with merkava.
What u guys say?

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In such situation the solution are simpler by adding more cars and additional engine to get the job done in a single train, Same solutions are done for goods trains..

Military trains specially laden with vehicles are mounted / dismounted from back, Not over / from platform, The length is not an issue prior to final destination and routes and stoppages are given as per situation..

You can move 40 T-90s in place of 20 Arjuns , Agreed..

 

[ersakthivel]

In such situation the solution are simpler by adding more cars and additional engine to get the job done in a single train, Same solutions are done for goods trains..

Military trains specially laden with vehicles are mounted / dismounted from back, Not over / from platform, The length is not an issue prior to final destination and routes and stoppages are given as per situation..

Of course , solutions like these are used in all the western countries that operate heavier MBTs. But people who are looking for a stick to beat Arjun will always remember to forget this.With the advent of top attack anti tank missiles and higher penetration APFSD rounds, future tanks are not going to become light weight overnight.

ERA protection won't help in case the same place is hit repeatedly. So having light weight easily transportable , lesser armor , relying on turret geometry tanks, that need external exposed air conditioning system to stop the crews from fainting (that means you are vulnerable whenever you turn the gun , because weak turret sides will get exposed.) won't help in the long run, neither does heaping ammo on the floor of the tank hoping that turret won't lift off in ammo cook-off resulting from any seep through explosion.

As there is no way for safe handling of ammo with auto loaders , It is better to have each piece of ammo stored as safe as possible , rather than leaving them exposed in the bargain of a bit higher rate of fire.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Of course , solutions like these are used in all the western countries that operate heavier MBTs. But people who are looking for a stick to beat Arjun will always remember to forget this.With the advent of top attack anti tank missiles and higher penetration APFSD rounds, future tanks are not going to become light weight overnight.

ERA protection won't help in case the same place is hit repeatedly. So having light weight easily transportable , lesser armor , relying on turret geometry tanks, that need external exposed air conditioning system to stop the crews from fainting (that means you are vulnerable whenever you turn the gun , because weak turret sides will get exposed.) won't help in the long run, neither does heaping ammo on the floor of the tank hoping that turret won't lift off in ammo cook-off resulting from any seep through explosion.

As there is no way for safe handling of ammo with auto loaders , It is better to have each piece of ammo stored as safe as possible , rather than leaving them exposed in the bargain of a bit higher rate of fire.

You are absolutely correct about the near future of MBTs. With the current trends in armor technology, and slow progress of hard kill defences, the MBT will likely get heavier before it gets any lighter.

People tend to see the US concepts and imagine that light tanks are the way of the near future.(20-30 years). In reality the only way the tank will lose weight without loosing survivability is either a revolution in material science or implementation of autonomous/unmanned tanks. Neither possibility is likely for some time into the future.

And about the autoloaders, the idea behind it was not much about increasing the rate of fire (though certainly a factor) but rather to eliminate a crew member and thereby dispense with the armour needed to protect him (by some estimates 12 tons). This is the way the Russians managed to save weight, but then realised in Afg/Iraq/Iran/Kuwait/Chechnya/Georgia the price of their gamble. The survivability of the tank and its crew was deeply suspect against weapons against which their NATO counterparts easily stood their ground.

Food for thought: Even with APS the merkava has no plans to lose weight.
Both the Russian T-95 & T-99 have higher weight than the t90/72, clearly the Russians have learnt something about tank warfare.

 

[bose]

We should order at least 500 Arjun Mark-II and keep on improving upon the existing model. What people fail to understand that Arjun is meant primarily suited for desert as we have along border with Pakistan.

The marshy land of Punjab is even not suitable for T-90S / MS leave alone Arjun. Punjab land is not suitable for tank battles.

Arjun is our tank made specially for Indian conditions, we must support its development & induction in large numbers.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Arjun MK-1/2 can operate along western border let it be Punjab / Thar / Gujarat, The only place it cannot right now is over eastern sector not coz of transportation but small numbers..

Arjun MK-1 will be better over Punjab specially over Rice paddy fields where pattons were stuck in 71 wars, Arjun ability to take quick snorkel when crossing canals makes it much faster offensive tank than others in IA ..

 

[Bhadra]

Arjun is Indian design and made tank with Indian made FCS by Bel, Gun ARDE, Suspension, Transmission, Tracks, Armour, All Electronics made by BEL .

Only the Engine is German, The percentage of imported parts are 20% in present Arjun MK-1, rest 80% is Indian made..

Thanks for information ... Wiki says it is still 50 per cent foreign componenets...

 

[rahulrds1]

Thanks for information ... Wiki says it is still 50 per cent foreign componenets...

Here is Wiki's "Complete" sentence about arjun. (that too.. from old source)

Initially some % of the tank's components were imported, However, several of these have since been replaced by indigenous systems & are being supplied by Indian companies.

 

[ersakthivel]

it has been told a thousand times that once a bulk order of 500 or so is placed most of the imported components will be replaced with local components. It is stupid to set up production lines for just124 tanks.It will be prohibitively expensive. The ARJUN engine , and all other imported components ware easily doable here.

 

[sayareakd]

Thanks for information ... Wiki says it is still 50 per cent foreign componenets...

you prefer 100% foreign tank but dont like 50% Indian tank. :thumb:

 

[Daredevil]

you prefer 100% foreign tank but dont like 50% Indian tank. :thumb:

Avenue for more commission, so corrupt Army officials likes that way and therefore went out of the way to sabotage Arjun tank.

 

[sayareakd]

they will sell their mother land for money, such people should be send to other world.

 

[DivineHeretic]

Arjun is Indian design and made tank with Indian made FCS by Bel, Gun ARDE, Suspension, Transmission, Tracks, Armour, All Electronics made by BEL .

Only the Engine is German, The percentage of imported parts are 20% in present Arjun MK-1, rest 80% is Indian made..

The thermal imager and Night Vision sights for both the Commander and the Gunner originally came from Thales. Though its ability to withstand the Thar desert heat is deeply suspect. This is why the AC has been fixed, both on T90 & the Arjun. It was finally replaced by our BEL.

Very impressive performance and endurance in 50^0 C heat. Far better than the Thales in endurance.

By cost, the Arjun is 42% indegenious.
In comparison,

Merkava IV-(Israel)
Powerpack - General Dynamics
(licensed MTU)Transmission
Ashot Ashkelon (licensed Renk)

K1A1-(South Korea)
Gun - Rheinmetall L44 120mm
Powerpack - MTUT
ranmission - RenkK-2

Black Panther(South Korea)
Gun - Rheinmetall L55 120mm(German)
Powerpack - MTU (to be replaced with domestic engine)
Autoloader design adapted from Leclerc-Leclerc-(France)
Powerpack - Wartsila(Finland)
Transmission - Renk

Challenger 2-(UK)
(changes part to-Gun - L30A1 (now being changed to Rheinmetall L55)
FCS - Computing Devices Co(Canada)
Panoramic Sight - Sagem(France)
TI sight - Thales(France)
Powerpack - Perkins(MTU on 2E variant)
Transmission - David Brown(Renk on 2E variant)

Everyine wants the final platform to be cheap, and in the process, gets certain components from abroad, for a variety of reasons. The Arjun is similar to the above tanks but somehow the imported content makes this tank a foreign one. How come the Lecrec is French?