Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Soham]

no conference on tank doctrine has taken place, since long, DGMF should accept that what they have is old doctrine, they should evolve new doctrine as per latest advances, including AWACs and satellite info/intell.

New doctrine should include network centric warfare with use of BMS of arjun along with UAVs and AWACs, for situational awareness.

That makes no sense Saya. Entire doctrines can't be changes for one tank.
Whatever factors you have mentioned can be incorporated in Cold Start.

 

[sayareakd]

Whatever factors you have mentioned can be incorporated in Cold Start.

Cold start is not tank doctrine, it is offensive doctrine where tanks are just one part.

If you go by cold start, where the warhorse of the IA is T 72 and T 90 tanks, these tanks dont have BMS.

They fought war as per the doctrine made in 1990s.........

 

[ppgj]

they should evolve new doctrine as per latest advances, including AWACs and satellite info/intell.

New doctrine should include network centric warfare with use of BMS of arjun along with UAVs and AWACs, for situational awareness.

sayar, the army is implementing IEWS which pretty much takes care of the points you raised.

The Indian Army’s modernization plan has given a thrust on Electronic Warfare (EW) systems. The procurement of EW systems to the tune of $1 billion will include Integrated Electronics Warfare Systems [IEWS], Low Intensity Conflict Electronic Warfare Systems (LIC EW), Mobile EW systems and the homegrown systems like Samyukta EW systems.

The Indian Army is acquiring advanced Integrated Electronics Warfare Systems [IEWS] for quicker attacks and added stealth. It will be a fully digitized system capable of monitoring the status of several system units and supply control signals to adapt to various operating conditions.

The IEWS will be customized to provide real time information to the battlefield level and will have advance communication technologies which will permit exchange of voice, digital and video data with other systems. It will also have geo-location technologies that will provide navigation information in built-up, forested and mountainous environments. The systems will also be equipped with tactical surveillance and targeting and automated ultra-miniature imaging and non-imaging sensors.

Indian Army To Buy New Electronic Warfare (EW) Systems | India Defence Online

 

[p2prada]

Cold start is not tank doctrine, it is offensive doctrine where tanks are just one part.

If you go by cold start, where the warhorse of the IA is T 72 and T 90 tanks, these tanks dont have BMS.

They fought war as per the doctrine made in 1990s.........

The present BMS on the Arjun can be incorporated into the T-90. But, the level of networking you are talking about is still not feasible as of now. Even the US is working on a basic version as of now.

Right now the BMS is only for the Arjun system. It can use UAVs as of now. But a complete link is not possible until 2012 and then the army will need another 3+ years to access the IAF AFNET. So, it is all possible only after 2015, considering everything is done without delays. That's why the Army is looking at the 2020 tank to really revolutionize tank warfare in the subcontinent.

More importantly, if you consider the new age tactics, the armour formations employ hunter-killer abilities. The T-90 is equipped with that feature and so is the Pakistani Al-Khalid. But, Arjun is not. Cold Start is not possible without this feature. 2 sights are provided, one for the tank commander and the other for a gunner. While the Gunner is shooting at one target the commander is looking for more targets.

BMS can handle some aspect of hunter-killer. But, BMS is not as good a hunter killer capability.

Also the T-90 has a far superior crew protection compared to the Arjun. The T-90 will have the same Kanchan armour that the Arjun will have and also the Kontakt-5 ERA and soon to be upgraded with Kaktus in the T-90M. The Arjun still does not have an ERA. Any other tank, including Arjun, in the subcontinent is a peashooter against the T-90M.

All in all, T-90M is a superior tank to any Arjun version that is out to date. Even the Arjun Mk2 is an attempt to bring it close to or surpass the T-90M.

Also, the current doctrine is quite old. Cold Start is still not ready and the army will require proven systems to make sure Cold Start works. The army cannot experiment with a new system just to protect our industry by ignoring the defences of our country.

 

[sayareakd]

PPGJ, BMS has not made its way with T 90 and T 72 tanks........

 

[ppgj]

More importantly, if you consider the new age tactics, the armour formations employ hunter-killer abilities. The T-90 is equipped with that feature and so is the Pakistani Al-Khalid. But, Arjun is not. Cold Start is not possible without this feature. 2 sights are provided, one for the tank commander and the other for a gunner. While the Gunner is shooting at one target the commander is looking for more targets.

BMS can handle some aspect of hunter-killer. But, BMS is not as good a hunter killer capability.

Two axis stabilized commander’s panoramic sight integrated with gunners main sight provides “hunter killer” capability both in static as dynamic mode (moving to moving mode). Higher order of stabilization accuracy enables accurate fire on the move at a moving target while maintaining the stipulated fire rate. The commander of Arjun MBT can engage targets in case of emergency, capable of firing at various slopes and tilt angles. First round hits probability has been demonstrated for MBT Arjun on a 1 mil target and greater than 60% hit percentage when firing from a moving Arjun tank to a moving target, both at 25 km/h.

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

Also the T-90 has a far superior crew protection compared to the Arjun. The T-90 will have the same Kanchan armour that the Arjun will have and also the Kontakt-5 ERA and soon to be upgraded with Kaktus in the T-90M. The Arjun still does not have an ERA. Any other tank, including Arjun, in the subcontinent is a peashooter against the T-90M.

All in all, T-90M is a superior tank to any Arjun version that is out to date. Even the Arjun Mk2 is an attempt to bring it close to or surpass the T-90M.

Protection of MBT Arjun against FSAPDS and HESH ammunitions has been demonstrated. In January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds. ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank. Arjun Tank has ERA protection as add on feature, while T-90S has it as a regular feature. A tank with ERA has a weight penalty.

same link as above.

Also, the current doctrine is quite old. Cold Start is still not ready and the army will require proven systems to make sure Cold Start works. The army cannot experiment with a new system just to protect our industry by ignoring the defences of our country.

p2p, the fact is army does not mind adding more t-90s ignoring arjun which is much superior in all aspects. we definitely are not asking army should induct inferior products but it has been proven arjun is superior!! it has gone through agni pariksha many times.

 

[ppgj]

good info on arjun tank. old but worthy read.

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs

May 30th, 2007

June 2007 will see the Indian Army pitching Arjun MBT against T-90S and T-72 for a dissimilar combat. Whatever the reason for the exercise, Indian Army is on record stating that, the Arjun MBT production will be decided by outcome of this event. Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service (FIDSNS) have collated the features of Arjun MBT and T-90S for the reader’s judgment of the capabilities of the tank. T-72 M1 specifications have not been added as T-90S is an advanced version of T-72 M1 which Indian Army operates. The two tanks have similar features in most of the mobility features and T-90S has add-on enhancements in terms of firepower and protection.

General Characteristics of MBT Arjun and T-90S

Battle tank design is an optimization of the three basic characteristics viz. firepower, mobility and protection. All tanks are designed in accordance with the war doctrine of the country and to ensure operation over a range of environmental conditions. Arjun MBT is a state of art tank, developed to suite specific needs of Indian Army. Arjun MBT is on par with contemporary tanks in its class like M1 Abrams, Leopard 2, Leclerc and Challenger II. T-90S is a lighter tank and does not fall in the class of Arjun MBT. T-90S is designed in accordance to specifications of the Russian Army and Russian cold climate. Both Arjun MBT and T-90S can be transported to Indian border areas by rail throughout the National Broad Gauge network.

Mobility performance

Arjun MBT’s Hydro Pneumatic Suspension system provides a stable weapon platform which enhances the fire on move capability and excellent riding comfort during cross country move. The Indian borders in north and west are very rugged. Arjun MBT has less Nominal Ground Pressure (NGP) compared to T-90S. Arjun MBT has better acceleration and maximum road speed due to high peak torque output of the engine coupled with fully automatic transmission not withstanding “slightly” lower power to weight ratio. Automatic transmission provides neutral turn capability which adds to the maneuverability during shoot and scoot. Arjun MBT features Auxiliary Power Units (APU) which T-90S does not have. APU’s provide continuous operation in silent watch mode. It also saves main engine life. Rubberized double pin tracks provide increased life, reduced track noise and better maintainability. Arjun MBT’s mission reliability has been proved with 500 kms being covered in 48 hours. Arjun MBT successfully crossed the RAVI River at Lassian without support systems due to lower ground pressure. Trench crossing capability of Arjun MBT is on par with T-90S as Arjun MBT has seven bogie stations compared to six bogie stations of T-90S.

Fire Power Performance

Firing performance of Arjun MBT is superior to T-90S in terms of accuracy (both static and dynamic situations) due to gun ammunition combination and high order of weapon stabilization coupled with auto collimated MRS. Auto collimated MRS compensates for the barrel bend. Firing performance of Arjun MBT and T-90S is same in terms of defeat capability and rate of firing. Two axis stabilized commander’s panoramic sight integrated with gunners main sight provides “hunter killer” capability both in static as dynamic mode (moving to moving mode). Higher order of stabilization accuracy enables accurate fire on the move at a moving target while maintaining the stipulated fire rate. The commander of Arjun MBT can engage targets in case of emergency, capable of firing at various slopes and tilt angles. First round hits probability has been demonstrated for MBT Arjun on a 1 mil target and greater than 60% hit percentage when firing from a moving Arjun tank to a moving target, both at 25 km/h.

LAHAT (semi automatic homing) Missile firing from Arjun MBT has been already demonstrated using a stand alone Laser Target Designator (LTD). This designator can be integrated into Gunner’s Main Sight (GMS). T-90S can fire Laser bean riding missile..

Arjun MBT armament system including gun barrel has been proved to be robust and reliable No case of barrel burst was reported even after firing 10000 rounds. The Arjun MBT prototypes and pre production tanks fired more than 100 rounds from the same barrel in a day. Life of barrel of Arjun MBT is twice that of T-90S, estimate equivalent in Effective Full Charge (EFC) of 500.

Protection Performance

Protection of MBT Arjun against FSAPDS and HESH ammunitions has been demonstrated. In January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds. ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank. Arjun Tank has ERA protection as add on feature, while T-90S has it as a regular feature. A tank with ERA has a weight penalty.

Outcome

Indian Army has not expressed the purpose of this exercise. It can be various reasons like a genuine requirement of validating its GSQR which resulted in creation of a heavy tank or the Indian Army internal rivalry or the pressure from the import lobby to kill the indigenous Arjun MBT project. It will be the test of Indian Army’s own integrity as Arjun MBT was made as per the Indian Army General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR), tested by Indian Army and approved for production by Indian Army.

P. Chacko Joseph

Copyrights : Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service.

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

 

[p2prada]

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

Surprising. We clearly did not have this during the last set of trials before the 124 tank deal was signed. Is it a new development and does the commander have his own CITV(Commander's independent thermal viewer)?

As for the armour paragraph. The Arjun still does not have a ERA, that is a negative point. This is 2010 and it is supposedly still in development or testing. You can't ask the Pakistanis to only use FSAPDS and HESH.

p2p, the fact is army does not mind adding more t-90s ignoring arjun which is much superior in all aspects. we definitely are not asking army should induct inferior products but it has been proven arjun is superior!! it has gone through agni pariksha many times.

Like I said, superior tank does not mean it will fit the doctrine. Doctrine is more important than the tank or the soldier. We fight a war with tanks but we only win a war with doctrine. Creating a new doctrine would take years to finish and we will need to restart it the moment it is done for a new generation tank. If the 2020 tank was not possible then Arjun would have fit the bill. We cannot replace our T series even with the Leopard because of doctrine.

Also once a doctrine is ready commanders hate to change it. This is because all their experience with one doctrine is nullified with the addition of a new doctrine. It is like starting with BE course and then taking up MBBS after BE. Arjun only enhances existing capability on the T-90. It provides nothing new. Had the Arjun been out early then it would surely have been inducted. The army has better things to spend on now. The Sixth pay commission is already eating into their budget by almost 10%.

The Army may also go for the T-95 instead of the Arjun due to commonality. DRDO can only hope to compete with the 2020 tank and not the current.

 

[notinlove]

As for the armour paragraph. The Arjun still does not have a ERA, that is a negative point. This is 2010 and it is supposedly still in development or testing. You can't ask the Pakistanis to only use FSAPDS and HESH.

I support this , i would also like to add that in current scenario the biggest threat to a tank advancing in enemy territory is not only other tanks but also attack helos and Shoulder mounted ATGM's fired from nooks and crannies in guerilla style
all of which use HEAT warheads, which makes it imperative to have an ERA.

 

[ppgj]

Surprising. We clearly did not have this during the last set of trials before the 124 tank deal was signed. Is it a new development and does the commander have his own CITV(Commander's independent thermal viewer)?

ok. this is from wiki pages. needs to be verified.

The combined day sight from Bharat Electronics Ltd. and the thermal imager (formerly from Sagem, now reported to be from El-Op) constitute the gunner's primary sight. The first batch of tanks of the 124 ordered by the Army will have an all-digital Sagem FCS, whereas the second block will have the BEL unit, which will be used for all units thereafter. The commander's own stabilised panoramic sight allows him to engage targets and/or hand them over to the gunner. The Arjun has an auxiliary power unit to operate weapon systems in silent watch mode as well.

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the armour paragraph. The Arjun still does not have a ERA, that is a negative point. This is 2010 and it is supposedly still in development or testing. You can't ask the Pakistanis to only use FSAPDS and HESH.

yes. arjun does not have it but if you read the link i provided, you can see, ERA can be added. let me quote the relevant portion again -

Protection of MBT Arjun against FSAPDS and HESH ammunitions has been demonstrated. In January 2000 at Proof & Experimental Establishment (PXE), Balasore, Arjun tank armor defeated all available HESH and FSAPDS rounds including Israeli FSAPDS rounds. ERA is effective only against HEAT ammunition and not FSAPDS which is the primary threat to a battle tank. Arjun Tank has ERA protection as add on feature, while T-90S has it as a regular feature.

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

and -

A new honeycomb design non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armour (NERA) armour is reportedly being tested on the Arjun.[27]

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like I said, superior tank does not mean it will fit the doctrine. Doctrine is more important than the tank or the soldier. We fight a war with tanks but we only win a war with doctrine. Creating a new doctrine would take years to finish and we will need to restart it the moment it is done for a new generation tank. If the 2020 tank was not possible then Arjun would have fit the bill. We cannot replace our T series even with the Leopard because of doctrine.

army has never been keen on Arjun induction and hence making it part their doctrine does not come into picture.

the idea of any doctrinal role for any tank is - run fast, fire accurately, fire on the move, battle manage effectively and gain advantage. now on any parameter Arjun defeats T-90.

so how does a less effective T-90 can fit the doctrine better??

Also once a doctrine is ready commanders hate to change it. This is because all their experience with one doctrine is nullified with the addition of a new doctrine. It is like starting with BE course and then taking up MBBS after BE. Arjun only enhances existing capability on the T-90. It provides nothing new. Had the Arjun been out early then it would surely have been inducted. The army has better things to spend on now. The Sixth pay commission is already eating into their budget by almost 10%.

can you provide any info that supports the theory that Arjun does not fit army's doctrine?

to my mind, they do not fit in Arjun because they are not inducting it. one can't have a doctrine with non existant tanks.

yes Arjun may have been late but it was because army kept changing the goal posts. still when it came it is superior. if our own army does not support who else will? it can be made better as new tech emerges, which is normal part of evolution for any machine.

budget is not a problem for india now. india spends far less abt 2.5% of GDP. with the current growth india can go upto 4% of GDP. all FM's have in their budget speeches always say money is not a problem. if the armed forces wish, they will have extra money. heck the armed forces have returned money back to the exchequer many times in the past unable to spend!!!

The Army may also go for the T-95 instead of the Arjun due to commonality. DRDO can only hope to compete with the 2020 tank and not the current.

point is T-95 is still paper machine. Arjun is reality and it can be improved upon!!
even Russia is not favouring T-90!!

 

[no smoking]

good info on arjun tank. old but worthy read.

Dissimilar Combat: Arjun MBT Vs T-90S specs

Oh, It is already 2010. Do you have any news about this tank. Will indian army accept it or not?

Even I, as a foreigner, feel sick about this endless discussion.

 

[nitesh]

Oh, It is already 2010. Do you have any news about this tank. Will indian army accept it or not?

Even I, as a foreigner, feel sick about this endless discussion.

Why don't you just go to previous pages and read about it before getting sick

 

[p2prada]

ok. this is from wiki pages. needs to be verified.

Arjun (tank) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

yes. arjun does not have it but if you read the link i provided, you can see, ERA can be added. let me quote the relevant portion again -

Wiki is not a source. Wiki is a database for existing information. That information could be true or false based on the author.

Also, which ERA is the author talking about. The ERA needs to be specially designed to suit the tank. You cannot attach existing ERA and expect it to work out.

DRDO is still working or hopefully testing the Arjun's ERA. It will take time before it can be operationally deployed.

army has never been keen on Arjun induction and hence making it part their doctrine does not come into picture.

We cannot be that sure now can we. Th Arjun's BMS is still not ready since the UAVs and networking are at its nascent stage in development and testing. Arjun does not have ERA. The shells being made are not of the highest quality compared to Russian equivalents and not enough numbers can be made due to lack of production facilities. The current Arjun is underpowered without a new 1500HP engine.

the idea of any doctrinal role for any tank is - run fast, fire accurately, fire on the move, battle manage effectively and gain advantage. now on any parameter Arjun defeats T-90.

so how does a less effective T-90 can fit the doctrine better??

These are not parameters for doctrine. Doctrine dictates we will need these number of tanks for this much fuel capacity for these number of soldiers. Arjun cannot match the T-90 in logistics. It will never match simply because of the difference between them.

The Arjun will need more trains for transport, new bridge layers, more fuel, more men for maintenance, more men as crew, more everything compared to T-90.

The T-72/T-90 uses 3 men compared to Arjun's 4. Arjun also has bad mileage compared to T-90. So, that means more fuel needs to be requisitioned compared to T-90. And in the sub continent, the army with the most fuel wins the war.

Doctrine requirements are very stringent. The last drop of oil and the last bit of water and the last scraps of food, everything comes into the picture.

Army will also need to coordinate with the airforce and artillery along with the tank formations. All of this uses the T-72/T-90 as the base and years of experience through exercises since Operation Barsstacks. When the army was exercising new NCW doctrines with the T-72/T-90 after Operation Parakram, DRDO was still testing the Arjun.

can you provide any info that supports the theory that Arjun does not fit army's doctrine?

The problem with Arjun is Arjun itself. Had the tank come out early, the army would have been exercising with the Arjuns instead of upgraded T-72s and T-90s.

to my mind, they do not fit in Arjun because they are not inducting it. one can't have a doctrine with non existant tanks.

The doctrine is with existing tanks. Since when are T-72 and T-90 non existent?

The T-95 is just the next step to the T-90. The differences will be too small compared to Arjun.

yes Arjun may have been late but it was because army kept changing the goal posts. still when it came it is superior. if our own army does not support who else will? it can be made better as new tech emerges, which is normal part of evolution for any machine.

The biggest changes made were in the 80s when the Arjun was supposed to be a 40t tanks with a 105mm gun. DRDO was supposed to deliver the tank in 10 years. It never came. Once the T-72 was operationalized and the PA were "supposed" to induct Abrams, the Arjun was scaled up further by the army, to surpass the T-72 and that is the most logical outcome for delays. DRDO still took 15 years to develop a new chassis and import a German engine. The Arjun was "supposedly" ready back in 1995 and was put up for display only in 1998. So, it took DRDO a decade just to test the tank.

Once it came, the Arjun had a lot of teething problems. The army asked DRDO to fix it. But, DRDO again took their own sweet time to do it. All this when the T-90s were in the middle of induction and the PA T-80UDs were already inducted.

budget is not a problem for india now. india spends far less abt 2.5% of GDP. with the current growth india can go upto 4% of GDP. all FM's have in their budget speeches always say money is not a problem. if the armed forces wish, they will have extra money. heck the armed forces have returned money back to the exchequer many times in the past unable to spend!!!

Doctrines are made with current budget estimates and not "future" "possible" budget changes. No General will go to war hoping the govt will release more funds.

point is T-95 is still paper machine. Arjun is reality and it can be improved upon!!
even Russia is not favouring T-90!!

Arjun cannot have a higher calibre gun, a working BMS and a whole new armour package in less than a year while the T-95 will be ready for production this year. DRDO simply sucks when it comes to delivering on time. They will probably take 5 years to design and test a T-95 type Arjun Mk2. By then the Russians would have progressed to a 2020 tank. How can you blame the army simply because the Russians are better?

 

[anoop_mig25]

In final test, Arjun tank to take on Russian T-90

New Delhi, Jan 16 (IANS) The Arjun main battle tank will take on the Russian built T-90 tanks March 1, when the core strength of the indigenously-built tank will be assessed by the Indian Army's observers.

'Our aim is not to determine a winner in these trials, but to test the core strength of the tanks,' a senior official of the Indian Army said, wishing anonymity.

look indian army have already decide who is winner without going into trials.they have already decided not to buy more than 124 arjuns tank

The army, however, has made it clear that it will buy no more than the 124 Arjuns it has contracted for because it is unhappy with the tank on various counts. This apart, the army says the Arjun can at best remain in service for five to 10 years while it is looking 20 years ahead and needs a futuristic MBT.

i had said in my earlier post only arjun project must be closed and a new tank project keeping in future requirements of army must be started and if need arises then we should take help of others

The army's stand has been contrary to a third-party assessment by an internationally reputed tank manufacturer.


The official said: 'As suggested by the army, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment in a third-party audit. After the extensive evaluation, the auditor confirmed that Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and firepower characteristics suitable for Indian deserts.'


'They (the auditor) also gave inputs on production procedures for further enhancing the performance of Arjun tanks. DRDO will be incorporating all these inputs before the next lot of 62 tanks is handed over to army by March 2010,' the official added.

who is third party here ? what are there observations

The Indian Army laid down its qualitative requirement for the Arjun in 1972. In 1982, it was announced that the prototype was ready for field trials. However, the tank was publicly unveiled for the first time only in 1995.

why drdo took so much time?

However, delays in the Arjun project and Pakistan's decision to purchase the T-80 from Ukraine, prompted India to order 310 T-90s, an upgraded version of the T-72, in 2001.

is it AL-KHALID? WHICH THEY HAD DEVELOPED with help of china-ukraine

 

[anoop_mig25]

Also the T-90 has a far superior crew protection compared to the Arjun. The T-90 will have the same Kanchan armour that the Arjun will have and also the Kontakt-5 ERA and soon to be upgraded with Kaktus in the T-90M. The Arjun still does not have an ERA. Any other tank, including Arjun, in the subcontinent is a peashooter against the T-90M.

some said in this topic only that arjun has more superior crew protection than t-90.plus Russians them self are not going to use t-90.they are banking on their t-95 which is still to be produce.plus i hate the our babus working in defence ministry and army they are there four Russians interest but not Indian. i remember a quote form our president autobiography WING`S OF FIRE that they and their colleagues at drdo had developed a working model of HOVERCRAFT but as usual it was rejected.

 

[ppgj]

Wiki is not a source. Wiki is a database for existing information. That information could be true or false based on the author.

agree.

Also, which ERA is the author talking about. The ERA needs to be specially designed to suit the tank. You cannot attach existing ERA and expect it to work out.

DRDO is still working or hopefully testing the Arjun's ERA. It will take time before it can be operationally deployed.

ok. this is 2007 news. am sure they must have moved forward on this.

the Army has absolutely 'zero complaints' from the performance of the Arjun Tank in dusty, hot desert conditions in Rajasthan.

NERA Armour

Indian developers are believed to have come up with a revolutionary 'honey comb' design for the NERA (Non-explosive and non-Energetic Reactive Armour) Armour and, according to our sources, is said to be performing 'perfectly'.

NERA is a reactive armour which works like any explosive reactive armour but with the crucial difference being the using of energy in form of a charge instead of explosives. Israel, America are reportedly interested in seeking access to this technology.

Arjun MBT Unofficial Trials: Indian Army Satisfied With Performance in Rajasthan | India Defence

heck even israel and US want it!!

We cannot be that sure now can we.

army's somersaults, changing of goal posts -

Frontier India Defence and Strategic News Service (FIDSNS) uncovers the story of Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT), which is one of the world’s best main battle tanks.

History of Arjun Tank Development | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

disinclination in induction and even sabotage!!

DRDO outsmarting elements in Indian Army by placing a black box inside the tank to evade sabotage. The winter trials showed that the rest of the Indian Defence Establishment not agreeing with the Army reports on the Arjun Tanks.

Five hundred Arjun Tank orders needed for project break even | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

the sabotage of trials by the army has been alluded by none other than then state min for defence Mr. inderjit singh.

Th Arjun's BMS is still not ready

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since the UAVs and networking are at its nascent stage in development and testing.

why are you faulting Arjun or its BMS for this. it is army which has to answer in terms of integration of UAV's and making it operational.

The shells being made are not of the highest quality compared to Russian equivalents and not enough numbers can be made due to lack of production facilities.

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The current Arjun is underpowered without a new 1500HP engine.

yes. a new engine of 1500 HP is being undertaken.

Reportedly a locally-designed 1500 hp engine is under development.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORCES/Equipment/Armour/42-Arjun.html

These are not parameters for doctrine. Doctrine dictates we will need these number of tanks for this much fuel capacity for these number of soldiers.

i did not mean them as parameters for a doctrine. was only referring to what a tank is supposed to do in any doctrine. on performance it outscores T-90. that is what i meant.

Arjun cannot match the T-90 in logistics. It will never match simply because of the difference between them.

this is again due to the army's no interest in induction of Arjun. had they inducted they would have taken care of it.

The Arjun will need more trains for transport,

BANGALORE: Bharat Earth Movers Ltd. (BEML) on Saturday rolled out 29 of the 178 Bogie Flat Arjun Tank (BFAT) wagons of military rail ordered by the Army.

this is 2006 news. surely it could have been done if the army wanted to induct.

new bridge layers,

Sarvatra bridge layer is already in place complying to MLC 70 standard.

more fuel,

the difference is not huge. and you are picking one negative to 20 positives. not fair.

more men for maintenance, more men as crew, more everything compared to T-90.

The T-72/T-90 uses 3 men compared to Arjun's 4. Arjun also has bad mileage compared to T-90. So, that means more fuel needs to be requisitioned compared to T-90.

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more men also means less fatigue as the work is distributed and ofc better maintainence.

more to follow...

 

[ppgj]

And in the sub continent, the army with the most fuel wins the war.

Doctrine requirements are very stringent. The last drop of oil and the last bit of water and the last scraps of food, everything comes into the picture.

you are making too much out of the comparison. the difference is miniscule. and the positives far outweigh one or two negatives. no war is going to be fought over years in a nuclearised environment. a 10-15% additional fuel does not take into account the fact that Arjun will finsh the job much earlier than T-90 and in the bargain saving fuel rather than expending.

Army will also need to coordinate with the airforce and artillery along with the tank formations. All of this uses the T-72/T-90 as the base and years of experience through exercises since Operation Barsstacks. When the army was exercising new NCW doctrines with the T-72/T-90 after Operation Parakram, DRDO was still testing the Arjun.

agreed. but the delays are not just DRDO fault. check the history of their acts, the links for which i gave in the earlier post.

The problem with Arjun is Arjun itself. Had the tank come out early, the army would have been exercising with the Arjuns instead of upgraded T-72s and T-90s.

beg to differ. let's take a look at this -

On 23rd July, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan warned the audience, “A decision taken today to build an Indian tank will yield an MBT only 15 years hence.”

The army continues to stonewall the Defence R&D Organisation’s (DRDO’s) pleas for comparative trials between the Arjun, the T-90, and the near-obsolescent T-72. The Arjun has successfully completed Phases IV and V of the Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) which finished last month, during which the Arjun’s electronics worked flawlessly, without any air-conditioning.

Broadsword: Catchovsky-22: The scandal that is the T-90

sad how they hide T-90's problems while non stoppingly criticise even a small problem with Arjun.

The doctrine is with existing tanks. Since when are T-72 and T-90 non existent?

you interpreted it wrongly. i was referring to Arjun. since army is not inducting them they are non existant. so their doctrine obviously will not include Arjun.

The T-95 is just the next step to the T-90. The differences will be too small compared to Arjun.

obviously. army is hell bent on them and still have no problems inducting T-90's in big numbers.

The biggest changes made were in the 80s when the Arjun was supposed to be a 40t tanks with a 105mm gun. DRDO was supposed to deliver the tank in 10 years. It never came. Once the T-72 was operationalized and the PA were "supposed" to induct Abrams, the Arjun was scaled up further by the army, to surpass the T-72 and that is the most logical outcome for delays. DRDO still took 15 years to develop a new chassis and import a German engine. The Arjun was "supposedly" ready back in 1995 and was put up for display only in 1998. So, it took DRDO a decade just to test the tank.

check the history link i gave. they have changed the specs again and again. how can any developer come to a successful fruition. before he reaches to that the specs are changed again. the army has done it with only an intention to block it rather than with an intention to induct.

btw if they were not interested why they took so many years to say no. atleast drdo could have saved time and money.

also check what the israeli tank legend has to say which i quoted above.

Once it came, the Arjun had a lot of teething problems. The army asked DRDO to fix it. But, DRDO again took their own sweet time to do it. All this when the T-90s were in the middle of induction and the PA T-80UDs were already inducted.

teething problems are always there with any system when they go into trials. it is one thing to plan in lab and another when they actually hit the ground. the problems are solved as and when they happen. this is normal process for any machine.

The Arjun has successfully completed Phases IV and V of the Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) which finished last month, during which the Arjun’s electronics worked flawlessly, without any air-conditioning.

Broadsword: Catchovsky-22: The scandal that is the T-90

T-90's also have had and still have serious problems. what about them?

Doctrines are made with current budget estimates and not "future" "possible" budget changes. No General will go to war hoping the govt will release more funds.

my quoting the budget and FM'S were in response to your point of 6th pay commission observation.

Arjun cannot have a higher calibre gun, a working BMS and a whole new armour package in less than a year while the T-95 will be ready for production this year.

most of the heavy class MBT's have 120mm guns.

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does it mean they are also not comparable to T-90?

DRDO simply sucks when it comes to delivering on time. They will probably take 5 years to design and test a T-95 type Arjun Mk2. By then the Russians would have progressed to a 2020 tank. How can you blame the army simply because the Russians are better?

i am not saying DRDO is very efficient and timely. it is a learning curve for them too considering they had to fight sanctions regime internationally and meagre funding from the GOI. plus the tantrums of indian army.

 

[p2prada]

Arjun MBT Unofficial Trials: Indian Army Satisfied With Performance in Rajasthan | India Defence

heck even israel and US want it!!

Something to be proud about. But, nothing to dictate the army must also go for it simply because the Americans and Israelis are interested.

disinclination in induction and even sabotage!!

Five hundred Arjun Tank orders needed for project break even | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

the sabotage of trials by the army has been alluded by none other than then state min for defence Mr. inderjit singh.

Explaining to politicians and civilians the nuances of a doctrine is a difficult task. It is like a Doctor trying to explain what went wrong in English to a patient who does not understand English.

The army simply cannot handle the kind of pressure that will come from the govt if the Arjun succeeds after the T-90 was chosen. So, the sabotage route is the quickest way to reach an agreement. It is a very old method done by democratic countries.

Even USAF was accused of sabotaging the YF-23 for the YF-22.

why are you faulting Arjun or its BMS for this. it is army which has to answer in terms of integration of UAV's and making it operational.

Er. No. DRDO will have to come out with the UAV, the datalinks, the software etc etc. The army is just the user. They don't do integration.

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The person who wrote it is not technically sound. By giving the M1A2's weight as 10 "tons" more and listing the Arjun's weight only in "tons" is completely wrong. The M1A2's weight and the Arjuns weight measured are different. The difference is like Mile and Kilometre. It is an elementary mistake made by any body without technical knowledge.

M1 is 69 "Long tons" while Arjun is 58 "Metric tons." There is a huge difference.

There is nothing much given about BMS too.

She also states Arjun to be more agile on the "Golden Quadrilateral" while T-90 is slower. Little does she realize that the T-90 is faster cross country, which is the most important aspect. And I would hate to know the mileage on the Arjun at top speed.

yes. a new engine of 1500 HP is being undertaken.

Arjun's primary engine is still under development. Since when I wonder. >

i did not mean them as parameters for a doctrine. was only referring to what a tank is supposed to do in any doctrine. on performance it outscores T-90. that is what i meant.

Logistics matter and are the most important. If you can deliver the Arjun at the same logistics expense as the T-90 then there are better chances of Arjun's induction. Without this aspect there is no point in knowing which is a superior tank. The Pakistanis will be able to outmaneuver us at the frontlines with their faster and more inexpensive tanks. Arjun will be useless if the Pakistanis always reach the battle first.

The Soviet doctrine was to bring a lot of tanks into the battlefield that outnumbered NATO. Survivability did not matter in their doctrine. Numbers did and a similar doctrine has been also incorporated in the IA. PA's doctrine is similar but more defensive in nature. Bringing the Arjun into such a doctrine is like bringing a F-1 into NASCAR racing.

The Arjun's performance is secondary. But, it's superiority will still affect changes in doctrine since new strategies have to be incorporated which are associated with heavy tanks with survivability compared to T-90s hit and run tactics.

this is again due to the army's no interest in induction of Arjun. had they inducted they would have taken care of it.

Not true. The Army cannot spend more than it needs to. We are the Indian Army and not the US Army. You cannot blame the Army if they want more bang for the buck.

BANGALORE: Bharat Earth Movers Ltd. (BEML) on Saturday rolled out 29 of the 178 Bogie Flat Arjun Tank (BFAT) wagons of military rail ordered by the Army.

this is 2006 news. surely it could have been done if the army wanted to induct.

Seriously, 178 bogies for 124 tanks. Now calculate that for 1600 Arjuns if the T-90s were scrapped. It is not feasible. They still need to buy new artillery(very important), more assault rifles, more bullet proof jackets, more grenades, more clothes...and all of these as important as a tank.

If the investment was carried out in the late 90s it would have been better. But, buying new transports for just a few more years is out of the question.

Sarvatra bridge layer is already in place complying to MLC 70 standard.

And do what with the rest of the bridge layers. Do you really see the airforce replacing their jets in just a few years. It will take years to make the kind of changes you are suggesting.

the difference is not huge. and you are picking one negative to 20 positives. not fair.

Check your own post, post #306, picture 2.
The Arjun's mileage is 5.5LPK compared to 3.5LPK on road for the T-90.
The Arjun's mileage is 9.6LPK compared to 7.2LPK cross country for the T-90.

And look at the difference in range when it comes to cross country. Even with a smaller tank, the T-90 can travel farther with better efficiency.

All these measurements are at an optimum speed. Bring top speed into consideration and the Arjus more powerful engines will only gulp more fuel. We are not an oil producing nation.

So, the difference is indeed massive.

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more men also means less fatigue as the work is distributed and ofc better maintainence.

That is silly. The T-90 is a smaller tank and requires less maintenance than the Arjun. Also, the automated loader means more rounds can be fired compared to the Arjun's manual loader.

Now, a lot of western analysts believe the automatic loader is not good. But, what are they comparing it to? If the users, India and Russia, have no problems with it then the others who will be on the opposite end of the gun sight can simply shut up about it. Let them be happy with their superior manual loaders. Ask the loader to load 40 different shells at once and you will see the result for yourself.

More importantly, the Russians are thinking about completely automating the gun in the 2020 tank. So, even they believe automation is a key driver for a new generation tank.

This 4v3 is BS that the western nations have made up to hide their own shortcomings.

 

[p2prada]

History of Arjun Tank Development | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

Why is this the armies fault?

1972 : The first General Staff Qualitative Requirement (GSQR) was issued in August 1972 as QR No. 326 for the design and development of MBT. The QR 326 was not exhaustive and with regard to specifications but featured only "skeleton specifications."

1975 : DRDO prepared the system configuration of the tank.
Which means a tank prototype design can be confirmed.

1978 : The aim was to change the GSQR No. 326.
This was the time during which the Army was introduced to the T-72. Then the army realized that the Arjun would be hopelessly inferior to the current, "ready for induction" T-72. So, DRDO and Army decided to change the tank specifications which is only logical.

1982 : The new GSQR bearing the number 431 was issued in August 1982.

Changes included:
A new gun, new armour, basically a new design.

Can you tell me why the army will induct T-72 now and induct an inferior Arjun 15 years later? This was the reason for the changed GSQR.

Post 1985 : There had been significant enhancement in the battle tank technologies world wide and there was a possibility of these tanks being introduced in the Indian Sub Continent. This prompted Indian Army to change its GSQR and in November 1985, third GSQR No. 467 was issued. The changes in GSQR were:
a)More lethal gun of 120mm caliber.(obvious)
b)Requirement of Fin Stabilized Armour Piercing Discarding Sabot (FSAPDS)(Abrams)
c)Development of Semi Combustible Cartridge cases and high energy propellant.
d)Integrated Fire Control System based on sight stabilized system with periscopic gunner sight.(the need to see Abrams from far to avoid a hit)
e)Thermal Imaging system for gunner’s main sight for night fighting capabilities.
f)Provision of “Kanchan Armour” for enhanced immunity.

All this was meant to fight the Pakistani Abrams. And even this was not enough.
Why would the army induct a tank that is only meant as a successor to the T-90 at a time when Pakistani tanks were as good as the IA's in both numbers and quality and may soon surpass it by inducting the Abrams.

Post 1995 to present 2010 : No engine.

Ultimately the Abrams never came and the need to induct a heavy tank never arose. That's why the army says the Arjun is a dud. It came late and it cannot fit the doctrine anymore.

The difference between the 1982 GSQR and the 1985 GSQR was mainly the gun and FCS. FCS can be changed quickly. Gun cannot. But 1985 to 1995 is enough time for developing a new gun. I only see DRDO's punctuality to blame here. The GSQR changes only reflected the realities of the time, especially when the T-72 hit the army in the head.

Blame the Pakistanis for not inducting the Abrams.

 

[p2prada]

you are making too much out of the comparison. the difference is miniscule. and the positives far outweigh one or two negatives. no war is going to be fought over years in a nuclearised environment. a 10-15% additional fuel does not take into account the fact that Arjun will finsh the job much earlier than T-90 and in the bargain saving fuel rather than expending.

I have already given you the difference in mileage. So, logistics POV still stands.

As for the bold part, there is no way the Arjun can "finish the job" faster than the T-90. It is an amateurish statement. You need to give a scenario before trying to prove this. That's the point behind comparative trials.

beg to differ. let's take a look at this -

1985-2000 was 15 years. This is 2010.

Broadsword: Catchovsky-22: The scandal that is the T-90

sad how they hide T-90's problems while non stoppingly criticise even a small problem with Arjun.

Heh! Blame the French for not tropicalizing their systems before handing it to us. It was the Catherines that were at fault. More than 80 conked during trials and were thrown in the gutter. The army had to go for new thermals after that and the AC too. There was nothing wrong with Russian supplied equipment.

Also, AC is a good thing, expensive by good.

obviously. army is hell bent on them and still have no problems inducting T-90's in big numbers.

The T-90 induction was to kick out the older tanks like Vijayanta and older T-72s. The T-95 is the next step to replace the upgraded T-72s later.

check the history link i gave. they have changed the specs again and again. how can any developer come to a successful fruition. before he reaches to that the specs are changed again. the army has done it with only an intention to block it rather than with an intention to induct.

If the GSQR had not changed then, today, the Arjun would have been a 40 ton tank with a 110mm gun which would have been cancelled well after its development for the T-72. We have a tank today only because the GSQR changed.

btw if they were not interested why they took so many years to say no. atleast drdo could have saved time and money.

No politician has the guts to cancel projects in India. Army cannot cancel a project. The Govt made it clear we are going to build a tank and we did. That's it. Let the army decide what they want.

also check what the israeli tank legend has to say which i quoted above.

I missed the quote. Can you give the link again??

teething problems are always there with any system when they go into trials. it is one thing to plan in lab and another when they actually hit the ground. the problems are solved as and when they happen. this is normal process for any machine.

And the user will trust an experienced manufacturer more than an inexperienced one. Will you trust an incompetent, unproven guy to finish your work or a competent guy with years of experience behind him.

Broadsword: Catchovsky-22: The scandal that is the T-90

T-90's also have had and still have serious problems. what about them?

Can you point those out please? The only major problem the T-90 faced were with French Catherines as far as I know.

my quoting the budget and FM'S were in response to your point of 6th pay commission observation.

Even with a 30% rise in the defence budget the pay structure has pushed the army's pay and allowance budget to 65% from the older 56%.

most of the heavy class MBT's have 120mm guns.

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does it mean they are also not comparable to T-90?

I was talking about the T-95. It will have a better gun, better armour, more automation etc.

And why are you talking about the heavy gun now? According to you the Arjun should not have got its GSQR changed and it should have been a 40 ton tank with a 110mm gun. :icon_salut:

i am not saying DRDO is very efficient and timely. it is a learning curve for them too considering they had to fight sanctions regime internationally and meagre funding from the GOI. plus the tantrums of indian army.

Yes. So, they can try and compete with the 2020 tank instead of forcing some one to buy the Arjun. There are no more sanctions and they must have learnt something by now.