Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[p2prada]

@Nitesh

Isn't this is called shifting of goal post before letting anything mature

Shifting of goal posts is necessary. This term is something that the media has put into everybody's heads. Shifting of goal posts happens every few years in all defence related developments. It is not something that only the Indian Army does all by itself. The US army is the biggest "shifter of goal posts" in the world. They change their requirements faster than anybody else. The only difference is companies like Boeing and Lockheed Martin always deliver in time compared to DRDO.

10 years to only test a tank is insane. Most countries develop and test the tank in that time. They have the resources and the experience. If DRDO need more experience, then go ahead with the Arjun. Make Arjun Mk2. Then a Mk3 too. I personally have no issues. But, don't force the army to buy something they don't want.

DRDO can forget about the Arjun, they need to start new development in armour and ballistics. Compete with the 2020 tank. The govt will provide the required fundings anyway. It is all that matters.

By asking the army to buy 500 tanks, sure the Arjun will be a profitable project. But the army will take a dip in its fighting capabilities by inducting a dud tank that fits no where. So, do you want a Loser DRDO or a Loser Army. It is common sense that the Loser Army will be more harmful for the country.

As for the last part of your statement, "before letting anything mature."
Ok. Tell me. The first GSQR indicated the Arjun will be a 40 ton tank with weak armour and a hopeless gun. Not even Fiji will induct such a tank when we have the T-72.

So what's the point of having a mature platform which is so hopelessly out matched by every other tank in the world? The first GSQR for Arjun was meant to make the tank slightly superior to the T-55. Seriously, now can you even imagine we using the T-55 even in 2010.

The T-72 completely revolutionized tank warfare in the subcontinent in the 80s. Arjun wouldn't have stood a chance against that beast. You are talking about inducting a Maruti 800 when the Army is talking about inducting Innovas, apples and oranges. And the army's choice has always been better than DRDO's.

One little question for everybody. Can you remember when in history has the Army ever let the country down??? Now can you remember when in history has DRDO let the country down??? So, I believe I know where the fault lies. I rest my case.

 

[sayareakd]

P2P can you please through light on the fact, if T 90 tank fulfill GSQR of Indian Army for MBT ???

 

[ppgj]

Something to be proud about. But, nothing to dictate the army must also go for it simply because the Americans and Israelis are interested.

going by army's tantrums and tactics in killing Arjun, that will not surprise any one anyway.

i am happy atleast Israel and US are happy and want it. our army can take a walk!!

Explaining to politicians and civilians the nuances of a doctrine is a difficult task. It is like a Doctor trying to explain what went wrong in English to a patient who does not understand English.

The army simply cannot handle the kind of pressure that will come from the govt if the Arjun succeeds after the T-90 was chosen. So, the sabotage route is the quickest way to reach an agreement. It is a very old method done by democratic countries.

Even USAF was accused of sabotaging the YF-23 for the YF-22.

so in effect, you justify army's sabotage and their tantrums. i have nothing to counter that.

Er. No. DRDO will have to come out with the UAV, the datalinks, the software etc etc. The army is just the user.

if i am right the army has israeli UAV's. even datalinks will possibly come from Israel.

They don't do integration.

i did not say army has to integrate. it is their responsibility to oversee the integration.

The person who wrote it is not technically sound. By giving the M1A2's weight as 10 "tons" more and listing the Arjun's weight only in "tons" is completely wrong. The M1A2's weight and the Arjuns weight measured are different. The difference is like Mile and Kilometre. It is an elementary mistake made by any body without technical knowledge.

M1 is 69 "Long tons" while Arjun is 58 "Metric tons." There is a huge difference.

i honestly did not get that.
can you elaborate and explain the real figures?

There is nothing much given about BMS too.

improvements happen incrementally as the logistics improve not the other way.

As the worldwide MBT’s are getting network warfare friendly, Arjun MBT will have a logical improvement via a Battle Field Management System (BFMS). BFMS will provide information to tank commanders at different levels. This could network with helicopters or UAV’s too.

Arjun Mk2 – The Futuristic MBT | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

She also states Arjun to be more agile on the "Golden Quadrilateral" while T-90 is slower. Little does she realize that the T-90 is faster cross country, which is the most important aspect. And I would hate to know the mileage on the Arjun at top speed.

check my post #306. cross country speed for arjun is 40km/h and 30km/h for T-90.

and you are safely ignoring a number of other positives.

Arjun's primary engine is still under development. Since when I wonder. >

well. i wish DRDO speedy success.

Logistics matter and are the most important. If you can deliver the Arjun at the same logistics expense as the T-90 then there are better chances of Arjun's induction. Without this aspect there is no point in knowing which is a superior tank.

agree. but the army never bothered to induct Arjun and hence their logistics if not in place is beyond discussion.

The Pakistanis will be able to outmaneuver us at the frontlines with their faster and more inexpensive tanks. Arjun will be useless if the Pakistanis always reach the battle first.

Arjun may be the MBT. does not mean they are not backed by other tanks in the inventory. and being superior in accuracy, they will account for a great number of kills. plus Arjun itself will dissuade pakistanis from any adventure.

The Soviet doctrine was to bring a lot of tanks into the battlefield that outnumbered NATO. Survivability did not matter in their doctrine. Numbers did and a similar doctrine has been also incorporated in the IA.

Arjun is built for survivability. it can take hits and still fight. plus in any battle with pakistan, numbers and quality will be on our side.

PA's doctrine is similar but more defensive in nature.

you said just above that they will outmaneur us!!

The Arjun's performance is secondary. But, it's superiority will still affect changes in doctrine since new strategies have to be incorporated which are associated with heavy tanks with survivability compared to T-90s hit and run tactics.

but Arjun can not only hit but can run faster than T-90. (top speed : 70km/hr vs 60km/hr). check my post #306.

Not true. The Army cannot spend more than it needs to. We are the Indian Army and not the US Army. You cannot blame the Army if they want more bang for the buck.

agree with your first point. but how can they get more bang for the buck from T-90 which is inferior.

Seriously, 178 bogies for 124 tanks. Now calculate that for 1600 Arjuns if the T-90s were scrapped. It is not feasible.

so what? the rail wagons which will be built does not change anything except making it possible for Arjun transport. they will be used normally like any other wagon when they are not being used for Arjun transport.

besides the changes needed is only few centimeters on either side of the wagon. no change of line or platforms. all will run normal on the BG rail network.

what is the problem?

They still need to buy new artillery(very important), more assault rifles, more bullet proof jackets, more grenades, more clothes...and all of these as important as a tank.

OT. i don't deny that.

If the investment was carried out in the late 90s it would have been better. But, buying new transports for just a few more years is out of the question.

if army wills can happen.

And do what with the rest of the bridge layers. Do you really see the airforce replacing their jets in just a few years. It will take years to make the kind of changes you are suggesting.

when any system is built, support systems are also built. else how they can be used?

in this case if army does not induct Arjuns, naturally why will they induct support systems?

Check your own post, post #306, picture 2.
The Arjun's mileage is 5.5LPK compared to 3.5LPK on road for the T-90.
The Arjun's mileage is 9.6LPK compared to 7.2LPK cross country for the T-90.

And look at the difference in range when it comes to cross country. Even with a smaller tank, the T-90 can travel farther with better efficiency.

being a heavy class, it is obvious the fuel consumption will be higher. it is like asking a person who wants to buy BENZ to buy an ALTO because of fuel efficiency.

you keep picking minimal negatives to massive positives.

All these measurements are at an optimum speed. Bring top speed into consideration and the Arjus more powerful engines will only gulp more fuel. We are not an oil producing nation.

So, the difference is indeed massive.

but Arjun will finish the job much earlier saving both fuel and armament. difference will end in favour of Arjun.

That is silly. The T-90 is a smaller tank and requires less maintenance than the Arjun. Also, the automated loader means more rounds can be fired compared to the Arjun's manual loader.

Now, a lot of western analysts believe the automatic loader is not good. But, what are they comparing it to? If the users, India and Russia, have no problems with it then the others who will be on the opposite end of the gun sight can simply shut up about it. Let them be happy with their superior manual loaders. Ask the loader to load 40 different shells at once and you will see the result for yourself.

More importantly, the Russians are thinking about completely automating the gun in the 2020 tank. So, even they believe automation is a key driver for a new generation tank.

This 4v3 is BS that the western nations have made up to hide their own shortcomings.

so in your view, US/ISRAEL/FRANCE/GERMANY made blunder in going for a more man crews and manual loading??

 

[nitesh]

P2P I can't understand the point when IA was making GSQR they were sitting inside a well like a frog so they were not able to see what exactly they needed and suddenly kept realizing that new things are needed. They could have gone ahead in a more proper manner by accepting a little number as ver 1 and then suggesting the changes for ver 2. I really don't believe that all products made by other countries are 100% perfect from day 1 as you are sounding. And it is not DRDO vs IA discussion it is about accepting a home grown product. There is no point in continuing a product development when the user is not interested at all in using it.

 

[sayareakd]

Guys what i dont understand that how the GSQR is arrived at, ofcourse it should have been based on the war doctrine, T 90 were initially purchased, in emergency when Pakistan got T 80 UD, this order is later on extended.

now the question is Arjun has to be tested an re tested and again tested for GSQR and T 90 dont even come close any where to it..........no one is talking about this......IA which has T 72 as its war house would be more then comfortable with T 90 tank, but now IA is getting look at Arjun tank and those who have compare it have loved it.

 

[ppgj]

I have already given you the difference in mileage. So, logistics POV still stands.

i answered this in the previous post.

As for the bold part, there is no way the Arjun can "finish the job" faster than the T-90. It is an amateurish statement. You need to give a scenario before trying to prove this. That's the point behind comparative trials.

agree to disagree. can you give a scenario for T-90 to support your case?

1985-2000 was 15 years. This is 2010.

when designs are changed you put back the schedule by years.

On 23rd July, Maj Gen Yossi Ben-Hanan warned the audience, “A decision taken today to build an Indian tank will yield an MBT only 15 years hence.”

Broadsword: Catchovsky-22: The scandal that is the T-90

Heh! Blame the French for not tropicalizing their systems before handing it to us. It was the Catherines that were at fault. More than 80 conked during trials and were thrown in the gutter. The army had to go for new thermals after that and the AC too. There was nothing wrong with Russian supplied equipment.

Russians T-9-0S sales brouchures boast of firing range of firing range of 100 to 5,000 meters, while T-90S deployed with Indian Army have problems hitting targets even as close as 1800 metres with Indian ammunition, as reported in Rediff,April 26, 2007. Rediff article further mentions “but there was no way to modify the tank’s fire control system to correct that. Asked to modify the FCS for Indian ammunition, the Russians pointed out that the T-90 contract had no such provision.”

In a twist of irony, T-90S is the same tank which Indian Army purchased citing problems with indigenous Main Battle Tank Arjun.

T-90 S is a Dud, it can’t fire far enough. | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

The problems include critical flaws in its fire control system, availability of ammunition and, what military officers said, was avoidable overuse during training exercises, rendering many tanks in need of overhaul.

According to Jane’s Defence Weekly, the tank’s continuing technical flaws are "adversely impinging on the Indian Army’s operational preparedness."

Flaws in T 90 Main Battle Tanks troubles Indian Army | India Defence

Broadsword: Catchovsky-22: The scandal that is the T-90

The fire control system of T-90 failed to perform as per specifications during field trials. And the air conditioning system supplied by Russia could not prevent the fainting of the tank driver [India floated a global tender for a suitable air conditioner for T-90].

The T-90 tank is a state-of-the-art tank, but it never came into production for reasons best known to the Russians. Therefore, the induction of these tanks may be complicated in view of the absence of production line in Russia. To produce the same at Avadi will take time and money for production to commence. In 2001 the contract on delivery to India of tanks T-90s of production 'Uralvagonozavod' was under threat of frustration, according to the Governor of Sverdlovsk Region, Eduard Rossel. According to him, many accessory manufacturers of 'Uralvagonozavod' were not ready for realisation of such a large project. According to the Sverdlovsk Governor, he was horrified when he found out how the matters are going on for implementation of the contract. At that time, Uralvagonozavod had only a complete contract with the Chelyabinsk tractor factory on delivery of tank engines. It looked like the partners from Izhevsk, Magnitogorsk, northwest part of Russia had only recently have learnt that they are the participants of the project too. Some plants of VPK (military production complex) that were involved in the project already had suspended the manufacturing facilities, and have dismissed their people.

Russia had gone to their state-of-the-art tank, `Black Eagle', which is the tank of the future. T-72S, on the other hand, has many common features with 272M and the production of this tank can commence without much delay. All the add-ons of T-90 can be fitted into T-72S which has a tank fire control system, latest technology, 125 mm tank gun, 1000 horse power engine, anti-tank and anti-helicopter missile, SBIR and anti-tank guided missile protective system. With all these add-ons, T-72S has virtually become as good as T-90 and the cost is about Rs.5-6 crore, whereas T-90 is about Rs.12-13 crore.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/india/t-90.htm

Also, AC is a good thing, expensive by good.

The Arjun has successfully completed Phases IV and V of the Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) which finished last month, during which the Arjun’s electronics worked flawlessly, without any air-conditioning.

Broadsword: Catchovsky-22: The scandal that is the T-90

The T-90 induction was to kick out the older tanks like Vijayanta and older T-72s. The T-95 is the next step to replace the upgraded T-72s later.

T-95 is still paper tank. Arjun is reality. even independant israeli auditors vouched for Arjun in the trials.

If the GSQR had not changed then, today, the Arjun would have been a 40 ton tank with a 110mm gun which would have been cancelled well after its development for the T-72. We have a tank today only because the GSQR changed.

but in the end it is good. point is one wants a good tank.

No politician has the guts to cancel projects in India. Army cannot cancel a project. The Govt made it clear we are going to build a tank and we did. That's it. Let the army decide what they want.

they can't cancel because they have been caught sabotaging the Arjun in trials. DRDO had to put a Blackbox, so they can't tamper!!

I missed the quote. Can you give the link again??

Broadsword: Catchovsky-22: The scandal that is the T-90

And the user will trust an experienced manufacturer more than an inexperienced one. Will you trust an incompetent, unproven guy to finish your work or a competent guy with years of experience behind him.

what is the use? even with experienced manufacturer you are buying an inferior tank ignoring a superior tank because it is indian!!

Can you point those out please? The only major problem the T-90 faced were with French Catherines as far as I know.

answered above. if the problems are faced by Arjun, it is blown out of proportion with sabotage to boot. if the same is experienced with T-90, it is pushed under the carpet. great.

Even with a 30% rise in the defence budget the pay structure has pushed the army's pay and allowance budget to 65% from the older 56%.

the budgets are given on the basis of army's inputs.

I was talking about the T-95. It will have a better gun, better armour, more automation etc.

T-95, as i said is still not out of the lab.

And why are you talking about the heavy gun now? According to you the Arjun should not have got its GSQR changed and it should have been a 40 ton tank with a 110mm gun. :icon_salut:

p2p, i did not raise it. you did in your previous post. i only answered it.

Yes. So, they can try and compete with the 2020 tank instead of forcing some one to buy the Arjun. There are no more sanctions and they must have learnt something by now.

ofcourse they will. but is the army interested? nobody forces anything. only army needs to be fair.

 

[enlightened1]

funny thing is how the engines started working flawlessly immediately after DRDO installed the blackboxes

 

[p2prada]

P2P can you please through light on the fact, if T 90 tank fulfill GSQR of Indian Army for MBT ???

Yes it does. The T-90 is only an upgraded T-72 which has been the backbone of our doctrine over the last 30 years.

 

[p2prada]

P2P I can't understand the point when IA was making GSQR they were sitting inside a well like a frog so they were not able to see what exactly they needed and suddenly kept realizing that new things are needed. They could have gone ahead in a more proper manner by accepting a little number as ver 1 and then suggesting the changes for ver 2. I really don't believe that all products made by other countries are 100% perfect from day 1 as you are sounding. And it is not DRDO vs IA discussion it is about accepting a home grown product. There is no point in continuing a product development when the user is not interested at all in using it.

Can you tell me how much of the T55 can be modified. A 40 ton tank with a 110mm barrel has its limit. It cannot evolve beyond some point. It can never be a MBT with the T-72 around.

 

[nitesh]

Can you tell me how much of the T55 can be modified. A 40 ton tank with a 110mm barrel has its limit. It cannot evolve beyond some point. It can never be a MBT with the T-72 around.

Well this means the GSQR setter has to blamed not the developer

 

[sayareakd]

Yes it does. The T-90 is only an upgraded T-72 which has been the backbone of our doctrine over the last 30 years.

yes i am aware about the upgrade part, new name was given after the Gulf war.:scared_sofa:

 

[sayareakd]

Guys please, GSQR is top secret document, which is not reviled to general public....

P2P if the T 72 fulfills GSQR then the original Arjun tank would have done the job, which was in the weight class of T 72 and T 90.

GSQR was changed, for the simple reason that Pakistan was that time getting M1A1. GSQR which (most of the time are copy past of Jane reports) were based on Leopard tank, with more emphasis was made to survive hit then hit avoidance.

T series tank of russia is based on different doctrine which, rely on sheer numbers......
when you want numbers, quality is compromised.......

 

[p2prada]

going by army's tantrums and tactics in killing Arjun, that will not surprise any one anyway.

i am happy atleast Israel and US are happy and want it. our army can take a walk!!

They are not going to buy the Arjun either.

so in effect, you justify army's sabotage and their tantrums. i have nothing to counter that.

Politics is an indiscernible fact in defence deals. So, sabotage can be expected. It is the quickest way to finish something.

if i am right the army has israeli UAV's. even datalinks will possibly come from Israel.

DRDO wants to do it alone.

i did not say army has to integrate. it is their responsibility to oversee the integration.

They can "oversee" a project that can only be done by DRDO in India. Ultimately DRDO has to do it no matter who is involved.

i honestly did not get that.
can you elaborate and explain the real figures?

1 Metric Ton = 1000 Kg.
1 Long Ton = 1016.xxxx kg
1 Short Ton = 907.xx kg

So a 69.54 short tons for Abrams is actually 62 Metric tons which is just 4 tons more than the Arjun.

(It is short tons and not long tons.) Either way the comparison of two different measurements is wrong.

improvements happen incrementally as the logistics improve not the other way.

The army gets to induct a modern tank without having to change logistics. It is merely more logical.

Arjun Mk2 – The Futuristic MBT | Frontier India Strategic and Defence - News, Analysis, Opinion

check my post #306. cross country speed for arjun is 40km/h and 30km/h for T-90.

and you are safely ignoring a number of other positives.

I was quoting the other article you posted. This one,

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Here, the T-90 is clearly faster than the Arjun. So, which specification do I believe???? Do you want me to believe this one or the one you are referring from. Most of the times all these specifications are wrong.

agree. but the army never bothered to induct Arjun and hence their logistics if not in place is beyond discussion.

And why should the army change logistics when the Arjun does not provide any thing revolutionary compared to existing models?

Arjun may be the MBT. does not mean they are not backed by other tanks in the inventory. and being superior in accuracy, they will account for a great number of kills. plus Arjun itself will dissuade pakistanis from any adventure.

T-90s are effective. More numbers can be fielded too.

Arjun is built for survivability. it can take hits and still fight. plus in any battle with pakistan, numbers and quality will be on our side.

If you were American or NATO then this would be fine. But, if you are talking about the doctrine in the subcontinent, a tank for survivability is not required.

you said just above that they will outmaneur us!!

Defensive or offensive, out maneuvering is employed in both. If they have tanks on the ground quicker than us, then we are hopelessly outmaneuvered.

but Arjun can not only hit but can run faster than T-90. (top speed : 70km/hr vs 60km/hr). check my post #306.

That's not what hit and run means. The T-72s used are different compared to Heavy MBTs and doe snot necessarily mean hit and run in its actual definition.

agree with your first point. but how can they get more bang for the buck from T-90 which is inferior.

More numbers, easy to maintain, lesser fuel consumption, lesser crew, lesser supporting vehicles, lesser supporting manpower etc etc. Definitely a bang for the buck.

so what? the rail wagons which will be built does not change anything except making it possible for Arjun transport. they will be used normally like any other wagon when they are not being used for Arjun transport.

Oh! Rail wagons definitely matter. You can't simply dump old for new in a few years. The Arjun was built primarily to counter the Abrams which never came. So, don't expect the army to have inducted thousands of Arjuns just because we built a tank.

Look at the existing operational heavy tank numbers:

Challenger 2 : 400+ in operation.
Leclerc : 400+ in operation
Leopard 2 : 400+ in operation (largest operator Germany)
Type 99: 200+ China

That's it.

T-72 : Do I even need to tell.
T-90 :600+ (expecting deliveries of 1000 more) India

Look at the differences in numbers itself. The doctrine required will be significantly different from the Heavy MBTs. Not many countries can operate Heavy MBTs. They are too maintenance intensive and expensive.

besides the changes needed is only few centimeters on either side of the wagon. no change of line or platforms. all will run normal on the BG rail network.

what is the problem?

And can you transport the same number of Arjuns as T-90s in a single train??? No.

Simple, you will need more trains for the Arjun, which will require more fuel and more time to transport. All of this matters and transportation is the single most important aspect of fighting a war.

if army wills can happen.

Less to do with army and more to do with budget. No country on the planet except the US can afford a large number of Heavy MBTs.

when any system is built, support systems are also built. else how they can be used?

And it will increase costs ten fold.

being a heavy class, it is obvious the fuel consumption will be higher. it is like asking a person who wants to buy BENZ to buy an ALTO because of fuel efficiency.

Our doctrine requires Altos and not Benz.

you keep picking minimal negatives to massive positives.

All the positive points about the Arjun is on the battlefield and nothing off it. Logistics is the most important criteria for any army.

The Germans losses in WW2 would have been lesser if they had invested lesser in the Tigers and more in the Panzers. The Tigers had better survivability and were very effective on the battlefield. However, in less than a year the entire army dumped their big Tiger tanks and used more Panzers because of logistics.
All because they could no longer maintain the fuel the tank.

but Arjun will finish the job much earlier saving both fuel and armament. difference will end in favour of Arjun.

No it does not. If you want an entire tank brigade to move from Lahore to Islamabad the T-90 will be a better option. If you run out of fuel dump the tank.

so in your view, US/ISRAEL/FRANCE/GERMANY made blunder in going for a more man crews and manual loading??

Their doctrine is defensive and significantly different from the Soviet doctrine. Both have their plus points and minus points. Their way is not a blunder, but neither is ours. They keep cribbing about 3 man crews and autoloaders when problems barely exist now. Germany cannot fight with T-72s and Russia cannot fight with Leopards.

 

[kuku]

As soon as Pakistan gets a heavy tank our army will reconsider and run around for a heavy tank.

The truth is that the army can do with a medium tank right now, however its also a sad truth, men do not matter and money does, i doubt that gives no motivation to the ordinary soldiers.

If the government wants it can spend the money and get the Arjun MBT in service, the Army can not refuse it beyond a point, doctrine etc. etc. keep on changing with time.

A domestic tank can be upgraded faster than a Russian product, the tank is more protected than the Russian tank and offers all the same features and then some.

however that would be stupid, the industry should be commercial in nature not a socialist one, army is the customer and should be satisfied, its as simple as that.

 

[p2prada]

agree to disagree. can you give a scenario for T-90 to support your case?

You were the one who brought it up. Allright, scenario. Move 10 Arjuns and 10 T-90s on rationed fuel and spare parts from Delhi to Amritsar. Let's see who reaches first.

when designs are changed you put back the schedule by years.

The designs were changed in 1985. 1985-2000 is 15 years. If GSQR No. 326 was followed then in 1985 we would have had a modified T-55. I would have kicked it out of the window even before it began testing.

Russians T-9-0S sales brouchures boast of firing range of firing range of 100 to 5,000 meters, while T-90S deployed with Indian Army have problems hitting targets even as close as 1800 metres with Indian ammunition, as reported in Rediff,April 26, 2007. Rediff article further mentions “but there was no way to modify the tank’s fire control system to correct that. Asked to modify the FCS for Indian ammunition, the Russians pointed out that the T-90 contract had no such provision.”

The Russians are not to blame for this. A gun needs to be calibrated before it can fire different ammunition. As for the FCS, why will they bother changing it now. This is the French department. The Catherines are the FCS and they need to get it done. We have been using Russian equipment since the last 60 years and problems supposedly crop up only now.

The problems include critical flaws in its fire control system, availability of ammunition and, what military officers said, was avoidable overuse during training exercises, rendering many tanks in need of overhaul.

How utterly STUPID. Ammunition and tanks are used up in trials and that is a flaw. Hahahahaha!

It is like you drive your car to its limit and then say servicing it is a flaw. Overhaul the engines and buy more frigging ammo. These are not flaws. ROFL!!!

The media is playing you friend. Get over the media bashing and look at the tanks logically.

The fire control system of T-90 failed to perform as per specifications during field trials. And the air conditioning system supplied by Russia could not prevent the fainting of the tank driver [India floated a global tender for a suitable air conditioner for T-90].

More silly stuff. The Tank driver would have fainted for N Number of reasons. Fatigue, Dehydration, Migraine and a million other medical reasons.

Tank driver faints! T-90 inferior to Arjun because Tank driver did not faint???? :goodstuff:

T-95 is still paper tank. Arjun is reality. even independant israeli auditors vouched for Arjun in the trials.

T-95 is almost ready for production. It has been in development since the last 10 years, 1999.

but in the end it is good. point is one wants a good tank.

Point is all tanks are good. What we need is an effective tank. T-90 is an effective tank. Arjun is a typical showpiece.

The Arjun has successfully completed Phases IV and V of the Accelerated Usage cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) which finished last month, during which the Arjun’s electronics worked flawlessly, without any air-conditioning.

Don't see that as an advantage. AC is very very good. It decreases the work load of other coolant systems in the tank and is comfortable for the crew too.

what is the use? even with experienced manufacturer you are buying an inferior tank ignoring a superior tank because it is indian!!

Nothing to do with Indian. India will not even send RFIs for Leopards and other heavy MBTs. Doctrine dictates everything, right from how many Generals are required to how many tanks are required.

answered above. if the problems are faced by Arjun, it is blown out of proportion with sabotage to boot. if the same is experienced with T-90, it is pushed under the carpet. great.

You don't understand. The Arjun needs to go through the highest levels of quality assurances that need not be matched by foreign suppliers. Not a single submarine company in the US can cater to USN's diesel electric sub requirements simply because of the control exercised. At the same time, if the USN goes for German subs, the quality control will be significantly reduced.

the budgets are given on the basis of army's inputs.

Not entirely true. They haggle rather than discuss.

T-95, as i said is still not out of the lab.

In a few months, maybe by March, the first production tank will be out. It is far earlier than the supposed Arjun Mk2.

p2p, i did not raise it. you did in your previous post. i only answered it.

But, weren't you the one who said the Army was changing GSQRs. So, according to you we should never have done that and stayed with the first hopeless version.

It is either we should have changed the GSQR to meet the Abrams threat or continue to modify a T-55. There is no in between. Chose either one or don't choose a tank at all.

ofcourse they will. but is the army interested? nobody forces anything. only army needs to be fair.

Haha! If the army is fair then we would have lost every war we ever fought. The army exists to protect the nation. DRDO exists to serve the army. The army does not need to be fair to anybody. The army will induct tanks that suit the doctrine best. Arjuns do not.

 

[bengalraider]

@ p2p

i may be nitpicking her but sorry just couldn't resist

Dude you have missed out some of the most important heavy tanks in operation

Challenger 2 : 400+ in operation.
Leclerc : 400+ in operation
Leopard 2 : 400+ in operation (largest operator Germany)
Type 99: 200+ China

Add to this The khanate premier tank the abrams with over 9000 built it is the most widely used heavy hitter out there (egypt also operates more than 1000).
then there's the israeli heavyweight the Merkava with more than 300 in operation and another 250 on order it is no slouch when it comes to weight.Also i think you have seriously underestimated the numbers of Leo's in service the german army alone is estimated to operate roughly 450 Leopards with the total number in service around the world being in excess of 1500, the number of leclerc's is also closer to 800.

The other heavy tanks are the KIAI of korea and the Type 90 of japan . Japan is estimated to have around 350 Type 90's in service, also there are around 200 Sabra's in service with the turkish army, 200 odd Arietes in service with the Italian forces.

Anyways coming back to the autoloaders , didn't the T-72 have a serious problem with the autoloader mechanism tending to pull in the commander's arm and fire that off as well?The auto loader is a two edged sword on one hand it increases rate of fire and the most modern autoloaders are infinetly more relaible than any man but they also are a weakness, in any four man tank the fourth man the loader can substitute for the driver or the gunner if the latter is injured in a three man tank there is only one option the commander is the substitute this leaves the tank headless in a manner of speaking.

Also the soviet tank doctrine envisaged heavy losses before their forces would be able to overrun europe, they knew that their forces would take massive losses from technologically superior and more heavily armored western tanks but they reasoned that their vastly superior numbers would make the defensive forces fail fast, the point being that the soviet doctrine envisaged the tank as an offensive weapon to be used to destroy the militaires of europe utilizing less armored fast tanks to overrun the enemy one key point in this was vast numerical superiority. this vast numerical superiority is not enjoyed by India i believe we need a core of around 500-1000 heavy tanks whithin the army the bulk of the armor should still be made up of 2500 odd medium tanks.

 

[enlightened1]

this vast numerical superiority is not enjoyed by India i believe we need a core of around 500-1000 heavy tanks whithin the army the bulk of the armor should still be made up of 2500 odd medium tanks.

Exactly! Heavy tanks would suit the cold start strategy too. When you're invading a country, you should expect & be able to suffer a few bumps. Arjun provides a good mix of armor, firepower & mobility.

 

[badguy2000]

well,tanks are expendable toys now.

as long as the army has enough capacity to resist the first wave of enemy's invasion, it is not necessary to arm troops with too many modern tanks in peaceful time.

maitanining too many grade A tanks in service in peaceful time is just a waste of money!

 

[p2prada]

@ p2p

i may be nitpicking her but sorry just couldn't resist

Dude you have missed out some of the most important heavy tanks in operation



Add to this The khanate premier tank the abrams with over 9000 built it is the most widely used heavy hitter out there (egypt also operates more than 1000).
then there's the israeli heavyweight the Merkava with more than 300 in operation and another 250 on order it is no slouch when it comes to weight.Also i think you have seriously underestimated the numbers of Leo's in service the german army alone is estimated to operate roughly 450 Leopards with the total number in service around the world being in excess of 1500, the number of leclerc's is also closer to 800.

No, you are not nitpicking and you are perfectly right. Abrams is a one off tank. The economy that supports it is massive. So, no comparison there. Other economies do not have such deep pockets like the US.

However, you say that there are 9000 tanks built out of which 6000 are operational in the US, and some more in reserve. The rest are spread between its allies. But, if you compare the economies that operate such heavy tanks, there is not one, save the US, that has a number more than 500.

Egypt is a one of case again. They are one of the largest recipients of US aid which is said to be the same as their official budget. Perhaps more. I have no idea what their doctrine states. It looks like they just purchased that many heavy MBTs for showing off. Something that most middle eastern economies have been doing.

As for Leopard and the other tanks. How many are operational in a single army? I am not talking about a collective of countries. If that is the case the T-72 far surpasses all of them put together. More than 25000 made, not to mention the Chinese versions that were not counted.

The other heavy tanks are the KIAI of korea and the Type 90 of japan . Japan is estimated to have around 350 Type 90's in service, also there are around 200 Sabra's in service with the turkish army, 200 odd Arietes in service with the Italian forces.

So, all are in the range of 200 or 300, less than 500. So, at the same time do you think Arjun will be a feasible project compared to 1600 T-90s and 1800 T-72s. Cold Start will fail without the T series. 1600 Arjuns cannot be inducted and maintained. It is impossible.

Anyways coming back to the autoloaders , didn't the T-72 have a serious problem with the autoloader mechanism tending to pull in the commander's arm and fire that off as well?The auto loader is a two edged sword on one hand it increases rate of fire and the most modern autoloadersa re infinetly more relaible than any man but they also are a weakness, in any four man tank the fourth man the loader can substitute for the driver or the gunner if the latter is injured in a three man tank there is only one option the commander is the substitute this leaves the tank headless in a manner of speaking.

A tank is a dangerous thing. Accidents are bound to happen. What was the Commander doing with his hand in the barrel?

Anyway, the western analysts comments have been at the earliest version of the T-72. Don't see why the system could not have been bettered over the last 30 years.

Your scenario about the driver being injured is very rare. The commander is the most under threat. So, can the loader replace the commander when the time comes? Can the loader the replace the gunner? And in case the loader did replace the gunner, the commander or the driver then who is going to sit and load the gun? The driver can only be replaced by another driver and for the time being the tank is pretty much useless. All they can do is drive back home. A 3 man crew can do the same.

Also the soviet tank doctrine envisaged heavy losses before their forces would be able to overrun europe, they knew that their froces would take massive losses from technologically superior and more heavily armored western tanks but they resoned that their vastly superior numbers would make the defesive forces fail fast, the point being that the soviet doctrine envisaged the tank as an offensive weapon to be used to destry the militaires of europe utilizing less armored fast tanks to overrun the enemy one key point in this was vast numerical superiority. this vast numerical superiority is not enjoyed by India i believe we need a core of around 500-1000 heavy tanks whithin the army the bulk of the armor should still be made up of 2500 odd medium tanks.

Fortunately our enemies are not the same as the Europeans. We don't need as many tanks as the Soviets did and the numbers required were significantly lower. However we do outnumber the Pakistani armour significantly and we have enough gunships to handle any threat. So, the current numbers will suffice.

The problem is the upgraded T-72s cannot complement the more modern Arjuns. Mixing and matching such a force is impossible. During WW2, the Tigers were in a different regiment while the Panzers had their own regiment. There was no major amount of mixing of forces involved. This is mainly due differences in logistics and doctrine.

The reality is simple. DRDO scientists who have Masters and Doctorates cannot think in line with their lesser educated military counterparts. Their education is in totally different fields. The scientist makes things while the military guy uses those things. Any scientist, journalist or layman will know that the Arjun is a superior tank. But, any military oriented guy will know that it will not serve. This is all because of Doctrine. The military guy knows what he needs. He does not need a scientist, journalist or a layman to tell him what he should do.

The problem is people watch some movies and read some books and believe they know better and that they have the right to criticize. A guy who has served 40 years in the army obviously does not know sh*t about warfare.:dozey:

Most of the problems is because of journalists. They take simple news, complicate it and cleverly twist it to fit their own agenda. Take a look at Ajai Shukla's blog. Supposedly the FCS is flawed. :dozey: And lack of ammunition is also a flaw.:stinker: Overhauling an engine is a bigger flaw.:icon_salut:
His blog would have got a lot of hits from fanboys.:2guns:

 

[Agantrope]

So, all are in the range of 200 or 300, less than 500. So, at the same time do you think Arjun will be a feasible project compared to 1600 T-90s and 1800 T-72s. Cold Start will fail without the T series. 1600 Arjuns cannot be inducted and maintained. It is impossible.

Oh... Dear do you remember Georgia war were the T-72 were baked with just RPGs and in Iraqi NATO forces just toasted the T-72 tanks.

How long it will take to pakistan to milk the secrets from US. Now the Pak is having the knife over the US in the Afghan Issue.

T-72s are merely outdated whether what the upgrade it get. So atleast 400-500 Arjun will be a bumper for the IA to replace the T-72s. I am not arguing that procurement of T-90 is no wrong but Arjun as well as his brother Karna is ditched for that.

The problem is the upgraded T-72s cannot complement the more modern Arjuns. Mixing and matching such a force is impossible. During WW2, the Tigers were in a different regiment while the Panzers had their own regiment. There was no major amount of mixing of forces involved. This is mainly due differences in logistics and doctrine.

If you are not sure about the WWII, Tigers and panzers i ll explain.
Tiger is say higher version of panzer where tiger had a powerful armour than the original one which made it formidable.

More... T-90 is not the one whcih he Russian forces have, it is somewhat crippled version and we people added the kanchan armour, french and israeli stuff and upgraded it.

I read in one israeli forum by a Israel amry men who was in the audition team for validaiton of arjun. He stated that tank is better than merkava and it is well suit for the desert operation.

Enlight me if i am wrong anywhere:sporty55: