Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Dark Sorrow]

And our forces have made clear that self-reliance & technical progress are prime focus now.

A small correction - Our Political leadership has made clear that self-reliance and technical progress are prime focus now

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Bad analogy when comparing Arjun to Russian tin coffins.
Arjun has many features built in for crew survivability.

1. Ammunition rounds are stored in a containerised ammunition bin with an individual shutter with blow off panels to mitigate the hazard caused by ammunition cook off
2. The Arjun MK1A variant tank has a track-width mine plough to reduce the risk of anti-tank mines
3. The Arjun's crew and engine compartments are equipped with an automatic fire detection and suppression system
4. In Arjun MK1A, the driver's safety and comfort is enhanced with roof mounted seat to protect him from Shock waves

Most Russian tanks are getting destroyed because of ammunition cook off. Have unmanned turret won't solve this issue. Ammunition cook off or ignition inside tank can still destroy T-14 and kill its crew.


Engine is one aspect that definitely needs to be improved but current engine also suffices current usage.

Today's APS is not very effective. From what I read it has 30-50% effective depending on different scenario.
Infantry tactics need to be changed. APS is also not effective against top attacks and UAVs.

All improvement in a platform is a continual process. Rome was not built in a day nor Merkava MK4, Abrams M1A3, etc. became potent platform in a single iteration. These are result of continuous improvement process.

Arjun is like Tejas. It is a start. We are developing several sub-systems that we would have never developed if not for Arjun.

I didn't compare Arjun to Russian tanks. I showed Leopard tanks destroyed in Syria.
If containerised ammunition bin with an individual shutter with blow off panels, roof mounted seats & fire extinguishing system were enough then Abrams would not deploy Trophy APS with additional block & tile armor, nor would Armata, etc be designed & developed.
The mine plough is not used everywhere & while driving all the time. Many times a tank has to drive on road also where plough won't be used. Moreover while using the plough the tank's speed is at walking speed.
30-50% is far better than ZERO % w/o APS.
Latest APS have deployed sensors in such way to fill the top conical gap which will counter top-attack munitions also. It is a logical thinking & improvement but which country will realize & do it how soon is another thing.
UAVs like Predator, Bayraktar, Reaper, etc are advantageous only in absence of air-defence. They can be easily shot down by VShoRADS, ManPADS, AAAs which can even tract & shoot smaller drones.

Rome was not built in a day nor Merkava MK4, that's why i keeping pushing about the development of our assets & close the gap with leading nations in my posts & replies. Israel is surrounded by hostile nations & have seen continious conflicts hence they have long history of Merkava MBT with MK1 designed in 1970s. But we even after 1962, 1965, 1971 depended on imports. The then politicians are to be blamed who stalled our R&D for all 3 wings.
The enemy will not attack after waiting for us to complete our development. We have to think global, not local. We have start working on solutions & work-arounds rather than just complaining, blindly expecting & overconfidently bragging. Arjun & Tejas MK1 are examples of startup, not combat effective & economical assets as per present day standards & advancement.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

A small correction - Our Political leadership has made clear that self-reliance and technical progress are prime focus now

I'm not defence journalist or geopolitical analyst so i can't comment deeper. But i have already said multiple times that past politicians have depended on imports & stalled our R&D. After watching multiple talkshows & interviews i feel confused sometimes that what these guys are upto.

 

[India Super Power]

I'm not defence journalist or geopolitical analyst so i can't comment deeper. But i have already said multiple times that past politicians have depended on imports & stalled our R&D. After watching multiple talkshows & interviews i feel confused sometimes that what these guys are upto.

U r bit misguided
It's not only politicians the major player in our game of imports is mod babus and military babus
These 2 have the responsibility of what our country is today in terms of weapons
If u want to change u have to change mod babus and military babus

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

U r bit misguided
It's not only politicians the major player in our game of imports is mod babus and military babus
These 2 have the responsibility of what our country is today in terms of weapons
If u want to change u have to change mod babus and military babus

That's why i said i can't comment deeper. I'm not professional journalist or analyst.
But whoever is responsible, either ways the common citizens like us will suffer the consequences.

 

[Curious droid]

I didn't compare Arjun to Russian tanks. I showed Leopard tanks destroyed in Syria.
If containerised ammunition bin with an individual shutter with blow off panels, roof mounted seats & fire extinguishing system were enough then Abrams would not deploy Trophy APS with additional block & tile armor, nor would Armata, etc be designed & developed.
The mine plough is not used everywhere & while driving all the time. Many times a tank has to drive on road also where plough won't be used. Moreover while using the plough the tank's speed is at walking speed.
30-50% is far better than ZERO % w/o APS.
Latest APS have deployed sensors in such way to fill the top conical gap which will counter top-attack munitions also. It is a logical thinking & improvement but which country will realize & do it how soon is another thing.
UAVs like Predator, Bayraktar, Reaper, etc are advantageous only in absence of air-defence. They can be easily shot down by VShoRADS, ManPADS, AAAs which can even tract & shoot smaller drones.

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Rome was not built in a day nor Merkava MK4, that's why i keeping pushing about the development of our assets & close the gap with leading nations in my posts & replies. Israel is surrounded by hostile nations & have seen continious conflicts hence they have long history of Merkava MBT with MK1 designed in 1970s. But we even after 1962, 1965, 1971 depended on imports. The then politicians are to be blamed who stalled our R&D for all 3 wings.
The enemy will not attack after waiting for us to complete our development. We have to think global, not local. We have start working on solutions & work-arounds rather than just complaining, blindly expecting & overconfidently bragging. Arjun & Tejas MK1 are examples of startup, not combat effective & economical assets as per present day standards & advancement.

I slightly disagree with your statement regarding the blow out pannels etc..
Well adding APS is like an extra protection ( just like how we add air bags into car ,if hand breaks works why bumpers?if bumpers works then y seat belts? If seat belts works fine then y air bags? ),Every extra feature is ment to increase the survivability of the tanks just like the car example.(i hope that u know the 2 types of ammunition storage in tank i.e bustel and carousel based) For example this video shows the performance of the bustel based blow out pannels in the Abrams tank which have saven the crews lives and the tank can be again restored into action by swaping up the ammo storages unit alone.Whereas the Tin 72&90 depends upon carousal based storage which results in their turrets being thrown out in the air like an diwali anar like this.

Modern day ATGMs can penetrate over 900+ MM of RHA even after defeating the ERA, which any tank Armour can't bear. In other words tanks are near to useless in the modern day battlefield ,due to increasing threats of modern top attack ATGMs. The only solution is non other than APS.lol

 

[jackprince]

Only 118+118 that's it
It must be a celebration day for our gernails and arms lobby
How conveniently they destroyed it and moreover made our product bad in international market whereas it's very good and people like us have to roam to other forums to explain people whereas earlier Chinese tanks were given preference and now see they are major tank selling country
We fucked ourselves

Even though I honestly believe that Arjun project has been treated badly in past, I digress with you regarding recent development.

Arjun's weight and bulk is a hindrance for our current threat i.e. Chinese agression. Our current inventory of modified T-72s and T-90s with two regiment of Arjun and the helicopter fleet is more than enough to squash Pakistani armour. So, I won't be surprised if that is behind the reason for the limited order. T-90 and proposed FMBTs will be in weight class where they can be deployed in all the terrains, Arjun cannot.

The way DRDO has been delivering in all projects, I have good vibe about FMBT or Arjun Mk.2 whatever you call it.

 

[vidhwanshak]

Even though I honestly believe that Arjun project has been treated badly in past, I digress with you regarding recent development.

Arjun's weight and bulk is a hindrance for our current threat i.e. Chinese agression. Our current inventory of modified T-72s and T-90s with two regiment of Arjun and the helicopter fleet is more than enough to squash Pakistani armour. So, I won't be surprised if that is behind the reason for the limited order. T-90 and proposed FMBTs will be in weight class where they can be deployed in all the terrains, Arjun cannot.

The way DRDO has been delivering in all projects, I have good vibe about FMBT or Arjun Mk.2 whatever you call it.

We could have had 2 types of tanks.

Arjun for Northern Plains and Light Tanks against China.
I don't understand what Army and MoD top brass was thinking when they placed "additional" orders for Junk-90 which was outperformed by Arjun Mk-1 in many aspects as claimed by various media outlets.

 

[jackprince]

We could have had 2 types of tanks.

Arjun for Northern Plains and Light Tanks against China.
I don't understand what Army and MoD top brass was thinking when they placed "additional" orders for Junk-90 which was outperformed by Arjun Mk-1 in many aspects as claimed by various media outlets.

I guess partly the logistics to be blamed. Arjun would need bigger trailers as well as different logistical chain when T-90 pretty much would use same trailers and logistical chain as T-72s.

Also Arjun would need bigger pantoons for its movement in Punjab terrain when in battle mode as the terrain has canals and riverines scattered throughout.

At the end of the day logistics wins a war and primary strength of a armoured column is its mobility. When Arjun would be superlative in Thar, it may be ill suited for the rest of the western border.

 

[cannonfodder]

Isnt it Idiotic to sight all logistical issues now at the end of the development cycle of Arjun Mk1-2. And we cannot modify enhance border infrastructure in stages to accommodate both the product lines(Russy-Arjun) in stages? Long time back kunal biswas and others used to cite that current rail infrastructure can support atlease western infrastructure criteria. Is this not true @jackprince

It means outside the above usecase, there is only paltry 1000-2000 units need . Which means every one was wanting this to fail from the very beginning.

 

[jackprince]

Isnt it Idiotic to sight all logistical issues now at the end of the development cycle of Arjun Mk1-2. And we cannot modify enhance border infrastructure in stages to accommodate both the product lines(Russy-Arjun) in stages? Long time back kunal biswas and others used to cite that current rail infrastructure can support atlease western infrastructure criteria. Is this not true @jackprince

It means outside the above usecase, there is only paltry 1000-2000 units need . Which means every one was wanting this to fail from the very beginning.

Yes. It is sinister how the army refused to accept the tank which was built according to their own specifications. However, it doesn't negate the fact that in last decade with Pakistan going downwards and rising Chinese threat, the scenario has indeed changed.

 

[Blademaster]

Yes. It is sinister how the army refused to accept the tank which was built according to their own specifications. However, it doesn't negate the fact that in last decade with Pakistan going downwards and rising Chinese threat, the scenario has indeed changed.

We need more medium lift helicopers like around 1200, 350 attack helicopters, and 7000 tubes of the 155 mm variety, and 15k mortars and shitload of trucks, APCs, IFVs, and we need close combat support planes like Su-25s and we need a separate force such as strategic artillery rocket force and have about 12k Iskander types of missiles, 6k-8k Nirbhay cruise missiles etc. Tanks are a much lower priority now. In fact, we only need about 1200-1500 Arjun tanks and the rest can be taken up by upgraded T-72s and T-90s equipped with the anti missile protection systems and latest thermal sensors.

Basically what we need are vehicles capable of carrying large logistic loads, massive artillery, and a comprehensive CSIR system comprising of drones, EW systems, ground radars, aerial radars capable of utilizing SAR imaging as well as thermal imaging from tactical to theater level, advanced communication systems.

Tanks are not the be all of everything.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I slightly disagree with your statement regarding the blow out pannels etc..
Well adding APS is like an extra protection ( just like how we add air bags into car ,if hand breaks works why bumpers?if bumpers works then y seat belts? If seat belts works fine then y air bags? ),Every extra feature is ment to increase the survivability of the tanks just like the car example.(i hope that u know the 2 types of ammunition storage in tank i.e bustel and carousel based) For example this video shows the performance of the bustel based blow out pannels in the Abrams tank which have saven the crews lives and the tank can be again restored into action by swaping up the ammo storages unit alone.Whereas the Tin 72&90 depends upon carousal based storage which results in their turrets being thrown out in the air like an diwali anar like this.

Modern day ATGMs can penetrate over 900+ MM of RHA even after defeating the ERA, which any tank Armour can't bear. In other words tanks are near to useless in the modern day battlefield ,due to increasing threats of modern top attack ATGMs. The only solution is non other than APS.lol

I didn't understand what exactly u disagree with. I just said that blow-out panels & other things mentioned are not enough hence Abrams, etc deployed APS. Whether it is automobile or combat vehicle, it is about natural evolution of technology, experiment, trial & error. So if 1st gen APS don't cover the top conical blindspot where Javelin like misiles & UAV dropped munitions can attack then it is logical to either add a top looking sensor or adjust the coverage of current sensors in next iteration/generation of APS.
In car, hand brake, bumpers, seat belts, air bags, etc cannot replace eachother, they supplement each other to cover different scenarios & light to heavy damage.
In combat vehicles also, passive & active systems, permanent & add-on armor protect against different scenarios & ammunition. It has been realized that no matter where ammo is stored it cannot be protected from all angles with passive systems & ERA. Supplementary solutions are to move engine to front like in Merkava or offload crew from turrett like in Armata but these videos themselves are evidence why a good proper APS is required.
And the crew & ammo container are not the only things to protect, but also the firing mechanisms, electronics, sights & sensors themselves or the vehicle can go blind & useless.
Also, MBT, IFV are not the only vehicles requiring APS but also APC, SAM, radar, C4I & critical logistics vehicles depending upon area of deployment.
And in future unmanned vehicles also we will see APS.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Future Arjun MBT can/should/will be similar to Panther KF-51. There is an autoloader so the 4th crew is optional which they intend to be a company commander, a drone/loitering-munitions operator or a unmanned vehicle operator.
And all 4 crew stations are role-interchangable, that's the best thing.
Future variants may have unmanned turret with crew of 3 like in Armata or even just 2.

 

[rohit b3]

Future Arjun MBT can/should/will be similar to Panther KF-51. There is an autoloader so the 4th crew is optional which they intend to be a company commander, a drone/loitering-munitions operator or a unmanned vehicle operator.
And all 4 crew stations are role-interchangable, that's the best thing.
Future variants may have unmanned turret with crew of 3 like in Armata or even just 2.

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you dont need to post the same content on 3 freaking threads.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

you dont need to post the same content on 3 freaking threads.

Perhaps u should also question the website owners why there are 2 threads for Arjun MBT.
Everybody may not follow/watch threads o multiple platforms. And the new tank's features are applicable to both future Arjun & FMBT. I hope both don't turn out to be same tank.

 

[Angel of War]

We could have had 2 types of tanks.

Arjun for Northern Plains and Light Tanks against China.
I don't understand what Army and MoD top brass was thinking when they placed "additional" orders for Junk-90 which was outperformed by Arjun Mk-1 in many aspects as claimed by various media outlets.

50% of arjun mk1 fleet is sitting in suratgarh workshop . Arjun is literally an imported tank. even T90 has more indigenous content than Arjun. The entire development process of the tank was flawed. It has better features over the T90 but those get negated when you don't have logisitcs infrastructure and supply chains to sustain the deployment of the tank. That's my take.
We must come to terms with ourselves and analyse the failures of the arjun project to develop a new MBT. It's not entirely a failure because the experience gained by DRDO scientists through the arjun project is invaluable

 

[vidhwanshak]

50% of arjun mk1 fleet is sitting in suratgarh workshop . Arjun is literally an imported tank. even T90 has more indigenous content than Arjun. The entire development process of the tank was flawed. It has better features over the T90 but those get negated when you don't have logisitcs infrastructure and supply chains to sustain the deployment of the tank. That's my take.
We must come to terms with ourselves and analyse the failures of the arjun project to develop a new MBT. It's not entirely a failure because the experience gained by DRDO scientists through the arjun project is invaluable

mark 21:00
Amazing video, shows how Army killed the Tank.
No, concrete orders were placed then how do you think those content would be indegenised?

 

[Angel of War]

mark 21:00
Amazing video, shows how Army killed the Tank.
No, concrete orders were placed then how do you think those content would be indegenised?

That's also a valid point, but I personally believe that arjun is a thing of the past. We must look forward into the future and pit ourselves against the world's best in this regard. All my hopes lie on FMBT project

 

[Blademaster]

That's also a valid point, but I personally believe that arjun is a thing of the past. We must look forward into the future and pit ourselves against the world's best in this regard. All my hopes lie on FMBT project

I wouldn't hold my breath on that. The IA types don't understand that you can't wait for the next best thing and not currently support the now available program. You have to keep the momentum going. The IA let the momentum died and now it cost more to restart the momentum. IA lobby is addicted to imported stuff.