Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Fire and groove]

Forget lasers, on a tank, put a good quality radar and FCS and hook it to a KPVT (replace the NSVT with a KPVT) and you'll have a good enough anti-drone system on each tank for smaller drones that can't carry ATGMs. For larger drones that carry ATGM, upgrade the SPAAG and SAM units of your mechanized formation. This alone makes a world of difference.
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Obviously in the medium term a C-RAM type system that can accompany the tank seems like the best bet. But it would be pretty ammo hungry. A system like Oerlikon Skyshield C-RAM with programmable ammo would be better for dealing with drone swarms.

I mean, we already have stuff like the Schilka which we recently upgraded with an AESA FCS, but there's very few (75 in 2010 according to wiki).

 

[Hari Sud]

Tanks are far from dead, it's just that people's notion of the "invincible tank" gets shattered everytime there is an armoured engagement. Tanks exist and will very much continue to exist for the forseeable future unless you can point to another system capable of providing immediate, precise, long range, direct fire support to mechanized/motorized infantry or just plain infantry and contest with armoured platforms in turn. Also, ATGMs don't automatically make tanks obsolete and have been a known threat for decades; neither are loitering munitions which are dependent on degraded SHORAD A²/AD and a workable vector. There's nuances to be made here, and the best answer to a tank is still a tank.

Good theory not practical. In last 100 years, (from 1919) the tank came and its fighting ability recognized and used. Then it’s demise is near or no more development as the anti tank weapons especially the top attacking missiles both by soldiers and by drones put an end to its war fighting ability.

Tank enthusiasts are differing because they have a vested interest in it or selling one or the other. But tanks demise is very near.

 

[Fire and groove]

Good theory not practical. In last 100 years, (from 1919) the tank came and its fighting ability recognized and used. Then it’s demise is near or no more development as the anti tank weapons especially the top attacking missiles both by soldiers and by drones put an end to its war fighting ability.

Tank enthusiasts are differing because they have a vested interest in it or selling one or the other. But tanks demise is very near.

This comment isn't going to age well when APS systems become capable of hard-killing top attacks. Oh and if you've done your IPB, followed by METT-TC and then proper R&S with dismounted elements/drones before exposing them to enemy positions, you'll be fine. Again, unless you've got a replacement for the kind of role a tank fullfills that quite literally keeps us from reverting to WW1 trench warfare, they're not going anywhere. ATGMs have evolved and so will tanks, in fact they already have.
Both the Ironfist and Trophy APS claim to have higher angle coverage i.e top attack counters.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

‘Are you a Chinese……… there are Chinese lettering at the bottom of your posts.

You accused me of the same thing not too long ago. Read this:-

INS Vishal (IAC- II) Aircraft Carrier - Flattop or Ski Jump

‘Your opinion is Indian Navy propaganda to have third aircraft carrier. That propaganda centres around that one carrier is always under maintenance. That is a false assumption. Yes, aircraft carriers require maintenance every 2-3 years and upgrade 5 to 7 years. That is far less than the Indian...

defenceforumindia.com

Yaad aya?
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I mean, we already have stuff like the Schilka which we recently upgraded with an AESA FCS, but there's very few (75 in 2010 according to wiki).

Exactly. Shilka is four 23mm autocannons hooked to a Radar and FCS. The concept itself isn't new. But its good for countering maybe one or two drones and doesn't work against swarms or as a C-RAM system. To take down a swarm, you need smarter weapons, like Oerlikon Skyguard with AHEAD ammo. And you need more than just one Shilka to match one Skyguard. And then when you have not one but several Skyguard systems protecting the same airspace and along with additional anti-drone systems such as the ones shown in this video:-
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And then on top of it all, you have each tank capable of some anti-drone firing, due to Shilka-esque system (just with a 14.5mm caliber instead of 23mm).

All these systems together make the formation immune to attacks even by large drone swarms, forget the "single drone lucky shots" that has impressed @Hari Sud so much.

TL;DR, we need multiple systems forming multiple layers of defence, all under same C2 so they can divide the workload and effectively engage a swarm of drones.

Good theory not practical. In last 100 years, (from 1919) the tank came and its fighting ability recognized and used. Then it’s demise is near or no more development as the anti tank weapons especially the top attacking missiles both by soldiers and by drones put an end to its war fighting ability.

Tank enthusiasts are differing because they have a vested interest in it or selling one or the other. But tanks demise is very near.

Instead of trying to repeat the same thing, how about you tell us how your drones would fair against the anti-drone measures we've mentioned? Go into details.
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The only thing theoretical here is your tirade against tanks. arms races are as old as arms themselves. This is just a new arms race, nothing more, nothing less. It just adds a new dimension to warfare that didn't earlier exist. Our current Anti-Air measures don't prepare us against a large number of small, nimble threats. Eventually we'll figure it out. As we always do. Offence vs Defence is a game that goes on forever, each side one-upping each other, but never breaking into a clear lead.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

@Hari Sud , tell me, if drones that can carry Anti-Ship missiles can be made, would that make warships obsolete? Why/Why not?

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Good theory not practical. In last 100 years, (from 1919) the tank came and its fighting ability recognized and used. Then it’s demise is near or no more development as the anti tank weapons especially the top attacking missiles both by soldiers and by drones put an end to its war fighting ability.

Tank enthusiasts are differing because they have a vested interest in it or selling one or the other. But tanks demise is very near.

Ask not what you can do to the tank, ask what the tank can do to you.

Whatever the constraints, when properly deployed with infantry screening and air cover, tanks are one of the most destructive things to take into battle. They may change, but they will stay on the battlefield for a long, long time.

 

[Fire and groove]

Ask not what you can do to the tank, ask what the tank can do to you.

1st Platoon CO: "Sounds like someone's coordinating a firing mission!!"
Alpha Company CO: "It's just a JF-17 Dickneshver, sit down."
*Sounds of HMG fires massing followed by HEAT smashing a bunker*
1st Platoon CO: "oH mY GoD!!!"
Company 2IC: "It appears the company headquarters has been breached."
Alpha Company CO: "Tanks. Gentlemen at times like these, our capacity to retaliate must be and has to be massive, to deter all forms of munitions." *pulls MPATGM out of a BMP-2's dicky/ass*
"Gentleman, clear for backblast area."
2nd Scout Platoon CO: "Viva la drones!!"
Company 2IC: "Any last words..Major?"
1st Platoon CO: "Yes Major, any superlative words of inspiriation for our humble ATGM specialists?"
Alpha Company CO: "Do not pray for easy firing solutions my friends, pray to have...stronger armour pens"
*Loads MPATGM*

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Inside Panther KF-51

 

[Fire and groove]

Inside Panther KF-51

View attachment 160953

Ok but can it run space invaders?

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Honestly What a tank...Indian army has brutally killed the Programme....

 

[India Super Power]

Honestly What a tank...Indian army has brutally killed the Programme....

Only 118+118 that's it
It must be a celebration day for our gernails and arms lobby
How conveniently they destroyed it and moreover made our product bad in international market whereas it's very good and people like us have to roam to other forums to explain people whereas earlier Chinese tanks were given preference and now see they are major tank selling country
We fucked ourselves

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Ok but can it run space invaders?

 

[Longewala]

Inside Panther KF-51

View attachment 160953

Ah, another gold plated, over engineered, every feature known to mankind, hyper expensive armoured vehicle, to be acquired in minute quantity for superlative cost by the country that also made Puma and Panzerhaubitze 2000

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Honestly What a tank...Indian army has brutally killed the Programme....

Honestly & evidently, the MK1 is brutally obsolete!!! Today every military vehicle without APS is a "coffin on tracks". And Pakistan has bought ATGMs in big numbers.

A massive refit is required

So, when the MK2 variant will have APS, skirt armor, a better engine, better interface console, etc then it will be comparable to Armata, Merkava MK4, Abrams M1A3, etc.

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Honestly & evidently, the MK1 is brutally obsolete!!! Today every military vehicle without APS is a "coffin on tracks". And Pakistan has bought ATGMs in big numbers.
View attachment 161190

A massive refit is required

View attachment 161189

So, when the MK2 variant will have APS, skirt armor, a better engine, better interface console, etc then it will be comparable to Armata, Merkava MK4, Abrams M1A3, etc.

Yes after completion of all successfull Trials of Arjun Mk2 ....immediately Orders will be placed for Huuuge numbers for T14 Armata..

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Ah, another gold plated, over engineered, every feature known to mankind, hyper expensive armoured vehicle, to be acquired in minute quantity for superlative cost by the country that also made Puma and Panzerhaubitze 2000

Over-engineered just bcoz it has bigger MFDs & sensors for better situational awareness? Then what will you say about K2 Black Panther, Merkava MK4, Abrams M1A2SEP-V3-TUSK??? You don't watch military documentaries, news? You don't know where technology is going? You wanna fight with WW era tanks? Consumer electronic goods are becoming better then why not military? The lastest iPhone with LiDAR is actually "gold plated, over engineered, hyper expensive" piece of shit. The general citizen want to burn their salary after 100MP phone but reluctant to arm military vehicles with few cameras which can save lives of crew.
The Ukranian war is best example that "1st look, 1st kill" applies not just to jet fighters but also to ground combat vehicles. A crew of 4 persons brutally loose their lives when a tank is destroyed, some of whom may be just in their early 20s who hoped to see their siblings & parents. So future will see unmanned tanks & manned with only 2 crew.

 

[Longewala]

Over-engineered just bcoz it has bigger MFDs & sensors for better situational awareness? Then what will you say about K2 Black Panther, Merkava MK4, Abrams M1A2SEP-V3-TUSK??? You don't watch military documentaries, news? You don't know where technology is going? You wanna fight with WW era tanks? Consumer electronic goods are becoming better then why not military? The lastest iPhone with LiDAR is actually "gold plated, over engineered, hyper expensive" piece of shit. The general citizen want to burn their salary after 100MP phone but reluctant to arm military vehicles with few cameras which can save lives of crew.
The Ukranian war is best example that "1st look, 1st kill" applies not just to jet fighters but also to ground combat vehicles. A crew of 4 persons brutally loose their lives when a tank is destroyed, some of whom may be just in their early 20s who hoped to see their siblings & parents. So future will see unmanned tanks & manned with only 2 crew.

Agree about stuff like MFDs, sensors and cameras. But that stuff is actually not very expensive and easy to add into the design (actually saves space inside the tank compared to previous era "dumb" controls)
But the point about hyper complicated German equipment, needlessly expensive and a lot of the other stuff still stands.

And the reluctance to spend on common sense, life saving, simple options is not due to the public. It's our respected army generals. Was it the people who decided to induct tanks without ACs or APS? No, it was the top brass whose offices would have AC while jawans get roasted inside tanks

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Yes after completion of all successfull Trials of Arjun Mk2 ....immediately Orders will be placed for Huuuge numbers for T14 Armata..

I really doubt how many Armatas can we import, also looking at Tech t/f aspect. Russia itself has so less of them. And our forces have made clear that self-reliance & technical progress are prime focus now. Reduction of humans to save money & investment on technology has already begun. Indegenous APS is being worked upon. Some privatization at sub-systems level will also happen when there are so many science colleges pumping young freshers into market searching for job.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Honestly & evidently, the MK1 is brutally obsolete!!! Today every military vehicle without APS is a "coffin on tracks". And Pakistan has bought ATGMs in big numbers.
View attachment 161190

A massive refit is required

View attachment 161189

So, when the MK2 variant will have APS, skirt armor, a better engine, better interface console, etc then it will be comparable to Armata, Merkava MK4, Abrams M1A3, etc.

Bad analogy when comparing Arjun to Russian tin coffins.
Arjun has many features built in for crew survivability.

1. Ammunition rounds are stored in a containerised ammunition bin with an individual shutter with blow off panels to mitigate the hazard caused by ammunition cook off
2. The Arjun MK1A variant tank has a track-width mine plough to reduce the risk of anti-tank mines
3. The Arjun's crew and engine compartments are equipped with an automatic fire detection and suppression system
4. In Arjun MK1A, the driver's safety and comfort is enhanced with roof mounted seat to protect him from Shock waves

Most Russian tanks are getting destroyed because of ammunition cook off. Have unmanned turret won't solve this issue. Ammunition cook off or ignition inside tank can still destroy T-14 and kill its crew.


Engine is one aspect that definitely needs to be improved but current engine also suffices current usage.

Today's APS is not very effective. From what I read it has 30-50% effective depending on different scenario.
Infantry tactics need to be changed. APS is also not effective against top attacks and UAVs.

All improvement in a platform is a continual process. Rome was not built in a day nor Merkava MK4, Abrams M1A3, etc. became potent platform in a single iteration. These are result of continuous improvement process.

Arjun is like Tejas. It is a start. We are developing several sub-systems that we would have never developed if not for Arjun.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Agree about stuff like MFDs, sensors and cameras. But that stuff is actually not very expensive and easy to add into the design (actually saves space inside the tank compared to previous era "dumb" controls)
But the point about hyper complicated German equipment, needlessly expensive and a lot of the other stuff still stands.

And the reluctance to spend on common sense, life saving, simple options is not due to the public. It's our respected army generals. Was it the people who decided to induct tanks without ACs or APS? No, it was the top brass whose offices would have AC while jawans get roasted inside tanks

Why should i being Indian worry about how Germans & others will handle their economy? My focus is always on tech aspect & if we can implement something.
Some countries have brilliant people & come up with solutions in/before time, like Israel, USA, France, Russia, etc.
Some countries who may not be technically leading but have money can import latest stuff, like other western countries.
Some countries who can import but not the latest stuff may win a war but will suffer heavy loss.
Now, APS is latest technology so it may not be right to accuse top brass now without knowing the interaction & agreement b/w them & politicians who actually allocate the budget. And top brass don't go to frontline because their body has aged & not fit anymore but they are still there in some undisclosed C4I location during war & they have reached top level after serving the forces in extreme conditions.
Any vehicle with NBC protection has HVAC system for air filtration. This is becoming common standard now.
Our country has got surplus science colleges pumping graduates every year who need to be absorbed. That's why i always push for APS & other tech equipment in my posts & replies.