Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[nongaddarliberal]

Correction; Indian Army's complaints about weight don't make (much) sense. Now they've been whining about 65ton max weight... That's why all the redesigning to reduce Mark2's weight have been going on.

But to be fair to them, they have the right to ask for proper ERA layout & side-armour, which had to increase weight.
As I'd mentioned few pages ahead, right back in '80s DRDO should have based its tank on lighter T-55 platform leaving no room for complaint & secured orders for a 50ton 4-crew tank by now.

Rhino tank from GTA5, Leo2 & T-55 ripoff.

Now they has a strong excuse to place another minor Arjun order & go ahead with the 464 T-90S (not even MS, motherfucking S)!!

Or they could have made something like the AMX 40, which the French were offering us in the 80's. AMX 40 and the Brazilian Osorio tank were both 42 tons, with 120mm smoothbore guns, composite armour, and completely modern fire control system, thermal sights, and hunter killer capability with the commander having a panoramic sight.

 

[Bleh]

If u watch , focus is on T90.

Well, there were more T-90s... and they decided to assign all the obstacles to them.

Or they could have made something like the AMX 40 and the Brazilian Osorio tank were both 42 tons, with 120mm smoothbore guns.

That's another option.
They chose to base Arjun on the Vijayanta experience, which has less than 100mm RHA frontal armour, allowing it weigh 40ton. But when they tried to increase that 6-7 times the weight shot up beyond 60ton.

So if they wanted a 4-crewed tank under 50 ton, it either had to have Lolz for armour (your suggestions do) or be based on T-55 with bigger turret & engine... like that one.

Rhino tank from GTA5, Leo2 & T-55 ripoff.

IA is obsessed with lighter tanks & refuses to upgrade its ecosystem for heavier vehicles (which is why, I suspect, it had to opt for T-90S instead of 4-5 ton heavier MS).
Now they're planning on adding 1500hp engines those T series tanks!

I frankly don't think current Arjuns has much hope, just 1 more piecemeal orders for Mark 1A.
It is indeed a somewhat flawed design & the Mark1A is just jugaad on it. It's too fucking huge... especially the turret being unreasonably large.

There can be no meaningful weight reduction without a completely redesigned new turret (the chasis can't be changed).
Only feasible way quick enough would be to reuse the manned FMBT turret & mount it on Arjun... if that design actually existed beyond concept art.

Does it shave of armour protection into a thin strips like T-90? Yes, its basically a T-90 turrret with extended side armour & ammo bustle... But fuck protection. If they don't care themselves, none else needs to.
You want protection or you want orders?

 

[nongaddarliberal]

Well, there were more T-90s... and they decided to assign all the obstacles to them. View attachment 43281
That's another option.
They chose to base Arjun on the Vijayanta experience, which has less than 100mm RHA frontal armour, allowing it weigh 40ton. But when they tried to increase that 6-7 times the weight shot up beyond 60ton.

So if they wanted a 4-crewed tank under 50 ton, it either had to have Lolz for armour (your suggestions do) or be based on T-55 with bigger turret & engine... like that one.
IA is obsessed with lighter tanks & refuses to upgrade its ecosystem for heavier vehicles (which is why, I suspect, it had to opt for T-90S instead of 4-5 ton heavier MS).
Now they're planning on adding 1500hp engines those T series tanks!

I frankly don't think current Arjuns has much hope, just 1 more piecemeal orders for Mark 1A.
It is indeed a somewhat flawed design & the Mark1A is just jugaad on it. It's too fucking huge... especially the turret being unreasonably large.
View attachment 43285
There can be no meaningful weight reduction without a completely redesigned new turret (the chasis can't be changed).
Only feasible way quick enough would be to reuse the manned FMBT turret & mount it on Arjun... if that design actually existed beyond concept art.

Does it shave of armour protection into a thin strips like T-90? Yes, its basically a T-90 turrret with extended side armour & ammo bustle... But fuck protection. If they don't care themselves, none else needs to.
You want protection or you want orders?

I completely understand DRDO's POV when designing the Arjun. They wanted to create a world class tank like the Leopard 2, which would provide ample protection for our soldiers inside, along with wide tracks that disperses the weight of the tank. Logically, it was the correct approach. In the battlefield, especially in the 80's and 90;s. arjun would have brushed aside any paki tanks with almost no casualiies on our end. But our army is not logical. Otherwise they wouldn't piss on a western style tank made in India, just for a glorified T 72 named T 90. At the end of the day, you need to provide what the customer wants. If the IA was insistent on a 50 ton tank, that's what they should have provided. If that had happened, we wouldn't have bought 2000 more Russian tanks.

BTW, for today's battlefield, the modern standard of armour includes additional ERA, and active protection systems, that take up even more weight. Even a 3 man tank with up to date protection will not go below 56-60 tons. Look at Leclerc and Black panther. IA really needs to get its shit together and prepare for operating 60 ton tanks, and get out of its 1970s mentality about tank weight. If FMBT is well protected, it will not be anything less than 55 tons.

 

[ram singh तोपची]

let me be very candid about the facts , army will never induct any variant of arjun tank in large number even if there was a flying variant cos if they had to they would have , simple as that the reason could be phirangee maal ka chasaka or kickbacks

 

[Bleh]

I completely understand DRDO's POV when designing the Arjun. They wanted to create a world class tank like the Leopard 2, which would provide ample protection for our soldiers inside, along with wide tracks that disperses the weight of the tank. Logically, it was the correct approach. In the battlefield, especially in the 80's and 90;s. arjun would have brushed aside any paki tanks with almost no casualiies on our end. But our army is not logical. Otherwise they wouldn't piss on a western style tank made in India, just for a glorified T 72 named T 90. At the end of the day, you need to provide what the customer wants. If the IA was insistent on a 50 ton tank, that's what they should have provided. If that had happened, we wouldn't have bought 2000 more Russian tanks.

BTW, for today's battlefield, the modern standard of armour includes additional ERA, and active protection systems, that take up even more weight. Even a 3 man tank with up to date protection will not go below 56-60 tons. Look at Leclerc and Black panther. IA really needs to get its shit together and prepare for operating 60 ton tanks, and get out of its 1970s mentality about tank weight. If FMBT is well protected, it will not be anything less than 55 tons.

Yeah, well... Should've remembered whom they're dealing with.
And if this 50-ton-4-man requirment was there for the tank from beginning (it probably wasn't) then it's both their fault to have ignored it & army's to not have rejected it immediately.

Going by Vijayanta saga, our tech fell behind by '90s, due to years of underinvesting in R&D, DRDO too performed shitty like OFB today. So we'd still have to buy some T-72s as Arjun want ready before 2005. I think later on as post 2000 Congress govt prefered imports, IA accumulated a lot of T-XX & then their stooges in IA started going vocal against anything beyond 50 ton.

GNMBT won't be well protected... I think they've learnt their lesson. It will meet GSQR requirements & secure orders.

 

[Bleh]

.................................

 

[Bleh]

hey aren't the designers of arjun aware about the weak points on the turret especially that hole why didn't they put block behind that just like leopard.

I don't think it's much of an weak point... could be 500-600mm behind it, because its much larger than Leopard2 turret. IA never raised any armour weak point excuse in Mark1.
Mark1A ERA layout, side-armour block are both completely crude & inefficient jugaad though.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Arjun Mk2 turret should be similar to the Leopard 2a5 turret.

 

[Bleh]

Arjun Mk2 turret should be similar to the Leopard 2a5 turret.

Do you see how much smaller that thing is?.. The hull is the size of a T-72's.

Arjun the behemoth's weight will reach 70tons if they try thickening frontal composite armour anymore.

This is the only way now...

 

[WolfPack86]

Army set to place order for 118 Arjun Mark 1-As, the most potent tank in its inventory
After numerous delays and extensive trials, the Indian Army is set to finally place an order for 118 indigenously manufactured Arjun Mark 1-A ‘Hunter Killers’, which will have all-weather capability and better fire power and stability than the Arjun main battle tank (MBT).

Army sources told ThePrint that the Mark 1-A, which weighs 68 tonnes and features a 120mm main gun, has cleared all tests, and that cost negotiations with its developer, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), are complete. The sources added that the Army has pushed the file to place the order, which will be done “soon”.

The move comes as a big boost for the Chennai-based Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), a DRDO lab.



The major improvements
“The tank comes with 14 major improvements that the Army has sought, which will make it the most potent and self-protective tank in the Army’s inventory,” V. Balamurugan, director of the CVRDE, told ThePrint.

Balamurugan said the first tank will be rolled out from the factory within 30 months of the order of intent (the technical term used for the order) being placed.

He explained that four upgrades were made to the firepower of the tank, besides other developments, including new transmission systems.

The Mark 1-A includes an improved gunner’s main sight, integrated with automatic target tracking. This would enable the tank crew to track moving targets automatically, and engage them even when Arjun is on the move.

The Arjun Mk-1A’s gun is controlled by a computerised integrated fire control system, giving the tank has a high first round kill capability. The gun’s day-and-night stabilised sights, coupled with automatic target tracker, guarantee accurate engagement even in dynamic conditions, a senior DRDO official told ThePrint.

Other than the conventional fin stabilised armour piercing discarding sabot and high explosive squash head ammunition, the Mark 1-A comes with thermo baric and penetration-cum-blast ammunition.


The Arjun saga
The Arjun MBT project was initiated in the mid-1970s, but the first two regiments of the tank were inducted into the Army starting 2004. Even then, they have never been used to their optimal capability because of a variety of reasons — including excess weight, issues with certain parts, and availability of spare parts.

The Arjun MBT had performed better than Russian T-90s during a desert trial conducted by the Army in 2010. However, reliability and availability weighed on the Army’s mind. The force argued that weight of the MBT, 62.5 tonnes, was a handicap as it meant that Arjun was too heavy for roads, bridges and canals along the Pakistan border.

The Army, in 2010, proposed an improved version of the tank, which would be called the Mark II, and was to have over 80 improvements, including 15 major ones.

However, this also meant that weight would increase further.


Cannon-launched guided missiles
In 2012, the DRDO offered the Arjun for trials with all the major enhancements, except one — a cannon-launched guided missile (CLGM).

The Army had insisted on having that capability, since other tanks like the T-90 also had it.

The DRDO roped in the Israelis and sourced the Lahat CLGM, which could conclusively hit targets between two and five kilometres away. The trials validated the CLGM’s laser designator.

However, the Army wanted a missile that could hit targets as close as close as 1.2 km, Balamurugan said.

He added that the Israelis took about a year to decide on producing it, but by then, the DRDO had decided to go in for an indigenous CLGM.

Talks between the DRDO and the Army continued until March 2018, and it was finally agreed that the next batch of Arjuns, to be called Mark 1-A, would be supplied without the missile firing capability.

“The process for building that (CLGM) is already on, and could actually be integrated on the Mark 1-A as they start rolling out,” Balamurugan said.

As far as weight is concerned, he said that though the Mark 1-A weighs more, it has been designed in such a way that pressure exerted at specific points is much lower.
https://www.defencenews.in/article/...-the-most-potent-tank-in-its-inventory-809742

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Do you see how much smaller that thing is?.. The hull is the size of a T-72's.View attachment 43547 Arjun the behemoth's weight will reach 70tons if they try thickening frontal composite armour anymore. View attachment 43542


This is the only way now...

That's what I meant to say.
Hull armour is perfect fine, it is gunner sight which might be a weak link.
Redesigning that will solve all the problems.
And also a powerful new APFSDS is needed.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

That's what I meant to say.
Hull armour is perfect fine, it is gunner sight which might be a weak link.
Redesigning that will solve all the problems.
And also a powerful new APFSDS is needed.

Way back in this forum this thing was discussed.
Do you know there was a prototype with gunner sight above the turret like in modern tanks?But magnificently it was not chosen, one must ask why? You can find answer of it here only.
Just go many pages back.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Way back in this forum this thing was discussed.
Do you know there was a prototype with gunner sight above the turret like in modern tanks?But magnificently it was not chosen, one must ask why? You can find answer of it here only.
Just go many pages back.

I think this redesigned turret prototype will be part of Arjun mk2.
Any idea as to when will the Arjun mk2 be showcased?

 

[Aaj ka hero]

I think this redesigned turret prototype will be part of Arjun mk2.
Any idea as to when will the Arjun mk2 be showcased?

No idea, I have already lost faith in the army timely induction and their support on indigenous weapons after ATAGS fiasco.

 

[Atcjurvin]

No idea, I have already lost faith in the army timely induction and their support on indigenous weapons after ATAGS fiasco.

ATAGS is heavy weight so until an unless it's weight come down below 14tn army will not induct it.

 

[Bleh]

That's what I meant to say.
Hull armour is perfect fine, it is gunner sight which might be a weak link.
Redesigning that will solve all the problems.
And also a powerful new APFSDS is needed.

NO. What I meant was Leopard to is much much much much much much smaller than Arjun. See the fucking side-by-side images again & compare both to that T-72 chasis!
If they try to add lift up the gunner sight & add more armour like Leopard 2 it will become 70+ton.

Hull armour isn't "perfectly fine" in Arjun. Hull too is very large & lower glacis is too wide. That's why it can't have full armoured side-skirts like upgraded Challenger2, that originally had similar to Arjuns. But still that one is of standard design & highly sloped upper glacis armour can be massively increased LOS by slight actual thickening.

 

[Raj Malhotra]

I have posted it a 100 times but 101st time

Gun Sight opening is Inverted L, periscope style opening. There is a huge slab of armour behind the opening. The head of observer is below the opening & not behind the opening

 

[Aaj ka hero]

ATAGS is heavy weight so until an unless it's weight come down below 14tn army will not induct it.

I tell you what? They are right, army is right after nearly a year I have now came to realization that army is right.
No point in indigenous weapon development if WARS are going to be fought for just ten days.
For ten days you can stock foreign made weapons also it will work unlike our OFB and drdo problematic weapons.
WHEN you have a army which says "we have to fight with best weapons available in the market" then the motive for indigenous weapons industry does not hold any value.
I say buy foreign weapons that will be good.
By buying foreign weapons USA and RUSSIA are not mad that they will sanction us in UN security council.
Also keep DRDO for strategic missiles, nuclear submarines because nobody will give it to us.
It is a good deal.
No point in these pathetic and unproven according to @Hydra3 tejas buy F-21 just imagine the leverage you can get in senate of USA, it will bring jobs in other areas for us.
Also buy French latest meteor and install them.
For money problem who cares, if INDIA ever was the LARGEST ECONOMY, I have no doubt that we would have been the world largest importers of weapons in mega billions categories.
Only problem is india economy DAMNIT!! otherwise we would had gotten.
ATHOS
SIG SAUER
M1A2 TANK
F-35
RAFALE
BARACUDDA CLASS
ASRAAM and many more.
Just mouthwatering weapons you see.
WE could had these if not for economy also our soldiers would had happily returned to their homes.:biggrin2:
Also just imagine the influence we would had gotten in CONGRESS of that country.
No pakis would had ever reached that.

 

[Aaj ka hero]

ATAGS is heavy weight so until an unless it's weight come down below 14tn army will not induct it.

You must be joking dude.
Army wants equipment too for automation and then they want it to be rugged too and then they want it to be lighter too.
Only one material is capable of handling that and that is titanium.
The amount of wear and tear and load this gun has to carry, you have to use these materials.
Of course cost will rise but hey! our army will then get the chance to buy there lovely ATHOS and American gun.
Weight is okay for the amount of ruggedness and wear and tear, problem is with army and air force as well as navy mindset.
You don't become superpower on imported weapons neither your will is taken any seriously if you fight on imported weapons.
But our army and Babus as well as politicians don't want this country to be a superpower.
Becuase it is too much of them.
Maybe our MOTHERLAND really want jihadis too become rule here atleast then motherland can have some dignity.

 

[no smoking]

In the battlefield, especially in the 80's and 90;s. arjun would have brushed aside any paki tanks with almost no casualiies on our end. But our army is not logical.

Or your army is living in reality while you are experiencing your tank war in the computer. Unlike the computer game, before brushing aside any pak tank, they have to deal with real problems, such as transportation, spares supplies, maintenance, etc, etc.

Otherwise they wouldn't piss on a western style tank made in India, just for a glorified T 72 named T 90.

The question you have to ask yourselves is: in last 80s and 90s, did India army have a logistic system (with fund, technician force, infrastructure on par to NATO) to support a western style tank: the logistic support required by Russian tank has been always lower and simpler than western tank.