Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Agantrope]

@gb009

What is path breaking in Arjun? None of the technologies mentioned are present on it (if they are then I take this back). DRDO does not have as much experience as these super powers but what they are developing and what we are developing is different. Besides how many components in Arjun have been obtained from other countries. When building futuristic tanks Russsia is not goving to source the engine, thermal imaging etc from other countries. It will have to develop these own its own, this again would take more time.

I am again sorry for same insane arguement.

You have forgotten that T-90 is wholly foreign item. DRDO has already announced that if orders are amassed all these can be manufactured locally. So reduces the foreign dependent.

Again on Path-breaking technology PPGJ has already posted the nature about the Kanchan armour, Please read that if you want. Also the BMS is present in Arjun but not in T-XXs tanks

I doubt that you haven't read the thread completely

 

[Rahul Singh]

It is better not to worry about the IA is intaking the Arjun MBT or not, MoD can give this thing to the BSF or any other paramilitary forces. This makes more sense when the relations between MoD and IA is getting strained on this front. IT is possible for BSF to operate the 250-300 arjuns in the Rajasthan and West Bengal makes more sense. This can be compared to the Marine Corps of the US having their own Air-Wing

BSF is a paramilitary force and comes under home ministry and its job is restricted to defensive action beneath Indian borders. Forces and their armament you are comparing with BSF are purely combat forces who fight behind enemy lines. Their Air-Wing can not be compared with air-wing of BSF or likes as BSF's air-wing is just for limited logistic support against fighting air-wing of USMCs or IA or likes. There is absolutely no room for any comparison and Arjun's MBT version for BSF is impossible. Arjun or for that matter any MBT is a weapon primarily meant for striker corps whose job description can easily be understood from their name.

 

[sayareakd]

this is what CLGM/LAHAT can do

 

[sayareakd]

BSF is a paramilitary force and comes under home ministry and its job is restricted to defensive action beneath Indian borders. Forces and their armament you are comparing with BSF are purely combat forces who fight behind enemy lines. Their Air-Wing can not be compared with air-wing of BSF or likes as BSF's air-wing is just for limited logistic support against fighting air-wing of USMCs or IA or likes. There is absolutely no room for any comparison and Arjun's MBT version for BSF is impossible. Arjun or for that matter any MBT is a weapon primarily meant for striker corps whose job description can easily be understood from their name.

Rahul, BSF is para military force and they can use Arjun tank, provided GOI, allow then they already use artillery gun and motors.
At present they have logistics problem if they ARjun tanks are allowed to pass on to them, this does not mean that they wont use the tanks for defensive purpose.

Tanks can be used for offensive as well as defensive operations, after Indian Army, they are the next line of defence.

BTW at the time of war all the units comes under the Indian army.

 

[MANISH123]

Thank you to our honest politicians

The best hope for the arjun is that it is exported to russia and then bought by the indian army at double the price at the cost of indian taxpayers, jobs and kudos to our honest politicians who want to upgrade even the antique T-72 while killing our top of the line Arjun.

 

[Daredevil]

There is a possibility of 250 more Arjuns being ordered according to Delhi sources. Don't ask for links, take it for what its worth.

 

[Agantrope]

I follow DD, but numbers will be atleast 250, work for expansion of HVF in Avadi for increased capacity is going in full-swing

 

[sayareakd]

124+250 is good figure to start with. Please remember that when more officers and tank crew see Arjun tank the better it is, that way the they can choice between the T series and Arjun tank.

One of the major problem was that not to many officers have seen Arjun tank that is why, this problem on part of some of the officers not to accept Arjun tank and rely on old warhorse T series tank.

 

[bengalraider]

There is a possibility of 250 more Arjuns being ordered according to Delhi sources. Don't ask for links, take it for what its worth.

I got somewhat the same figure from an Ex IA arty Col i work with; only he claims there are even now more than 124 arjuns with the IA the figure is deliberately underrepresented and the final tally after further orders will be closer to 450.

 

[gb009]

@gb009


I am again sorry for same insane arguement.

You have forgotten that T-90 is wholly foreign item. DRDO has already announced that if orders are amassed all these can be manufactured locally. So reduces the foreign dependent.

Again on Path-breaking technology PPGJ has already posted the nature about the Kanchan armour, Please read that if you want. Also the BMS is present in Arjun but not in T-XXs tanks

I doubt that you haven't read the thread completely

Actually I have read and reread this whole thread (2 days back). How many would have done that?

The point I am making is that since there is considerable amount of foreign technology on Arjun its development should not be compared to development of T 95 or other FMBTs (if I may use the term here). If Arjun is not equal in capability to lets say the latest version of Abrams I don't think people are going to look at it as its weakness, same cannot be said for T 95. Arjun is India's first tank, like LCA is our first fighter (I know there was one before, but from what I know it was not successful). Now nobody is going to compare it to F 22, but people will compare F 22 & PAK FA. Not the best analogue I suppose but that is all I could come up with.

Regarding armour, Arjun is an HMBT if its Armour is not better or equal to that of T 90 people supporting T 90 would have murdered the Arjun just for that, so its expected to have better protection. BMS is mostly about electronics and mostly involves using existing technology innovatively. I don't think T 90 din't have the BMS because Russia din't have the technical know how to make it. That's why I don't look at it as path breaking. By the way is Arjun the first MBT in the world to have a BMS? I don't remember, if so then it does deserve all the due credit even if its not path breaking technologically.

Besides my first line :

What is path breaking in Arjun? None of the technologies mentioned are present on it (if they are then I take this back).i.e "electro magnetic armour, unmanned turret, use of composites and lighter chassis, total missile launching facility and, more importantly, choosing invisibility over invincibility"

. So the reply was related to the technologies mentioned in the article. I am not taking away any credit from DRDO for developing Kanchan armour.

 

[Armand2REP]

When building futuristic tanks Russsia is not goving to source the thermal imaging

Russia already outsources thermal imagers from Thales, Army, Navy, and Air Force. They do not have the technology to catch up to France.

 

[gb009]

Russia already outsources thermal imagers from Thales, Army, Navy, and Air Force. They do not have the technology to catch up to France.

From what I could find on the net http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90 the T-90A comes with ESSA thermal viewer which is produced in belarus (not sure as I got this from a forum). If these have components from Thales then you are correct.

Besides when did I say anything about France??? If that is the case I whole heartedly agree that France TI are better, but this is not related to the point I made.

 

[ppgj]

people talking about Arjun consuming more fuel need to know it has APU(T-90/t-72'S DO NOT HAVE) which actually saves lot of fuel because it allows the tank to run in silent mode when the main engine is off. besides APU increases life of the main engine improving logistics and maintainence. more important is reduction in thermal signature!! some more benefits of APU here -

Auxiliary Power Unit (APU)

Auxiliary Power Units (APU) becomes standard equipment in many new and upgrading programs of Main Battle Tanks (MBT) & Armored Fighting Vehicles (AFV) for the following reasons:

- To enable Silent Mode Operation of the vehicle while keeping low Noise and Thermal Signatures
- To support the increased power demand for add-on Hi-Power Electronic Equipment. This new demand sometimes exceeds the original power generation capabilities of the platform.
- To reduce the logistics and operational costs of the vehicles. The APU low Life Cycle Cost (LCC) assures fast return on the investment.
- To improve the crew performance and reduce crew fatigue by minimizing their exposure to noise, heat and vibrations while using the APU instead of the main engine of the platform.

Kinetics' APUs:

Kinetics has developed and fielded a wide range of APUs for external and internal installation on military vehicles. The APUs are provided as standalone systems or integrated with Kinetics' Life Support Systems (LSS-APU) providing also NBC/CBRN Protection and Heating, Ventilation & Air-Conditioning (HVAC). Main features of Kinetics' APUs are:

- Electric output range of 2- 20 kW @ 28VDC (high voltage output is also possible)
- Option for additional Hydraulic output, Compressor drive and/or PTO
- High performance while operated in extreme temperatures and high altitudes
- Designed for heavy duty automotive operation
- Designed for operation in heavy dust conditions
- Fully integrated with the vehicle fuel and control systems
- Can be operated while the vehicle is stationary or in movement
- Very compact in size

Typically our APUs has 3 operational modes:

- Stand-Alone mode when the platform main engine is off
- Co-Generation mode while operating in parallel with the platform main engine (the vehicle may be in movement)
- External Power Delivery mode to power off-board consumers

http://www.asdsource.com/source_new...s_(MBT)_&_Armored_Fighting_Vehicles_(AFV).htm

heck even Tank- EX has APU!! Tank - EX is a major improvement which can easily replace T-72's. but as always the army....

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-5/nitin.html

 

[ppgj]

Arjun tank Engine and transmisiion.

Designation:

MB 838 Ka-501

Info

Manufactured by: MTU Motoren-und Turbinen-Union Friedrichshafen GmbH
Type: Engine and Systems
Name: Diesel engine

Specifications

Property Value
Engine power output (h.p.) 1400

Included in:

Product Amount
Arjun (Main battle tank) 1

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1482.html

Designation:

RK 304S

Info

Manufactured by: RENK Aktiengesellschaft
Type: Transmission & Drives
Name: Transmission

Development/ Description

The Renk RK 304 is a hydromechanical power shift, reversing and steering transmission and is used in new power packs installed in upgraded M48, M60 and Centurion tanks, the Otobreda Palmaria 155 mm self-propelled howitzer (coupled to MTU diesel) and prototypes of the Arjun Indian MBT.

The Renk 304 transmission can be attached to the engine directly or via an intermediate structure. The service and parking brakes are arranged on the two transmission output shafts positioned transversely to the input drive.

The connection to the final drives can be made via disconnectable gear-type couplings or via universal joints. Two mounting points are arranged on the transmission for a three-point support of the power pack.

The two-radii superimposed steering transmission is infinitely variable in the large radius range.

Dry running disc brakes at both output shafts act as service and parking brakes respectively. Static braking torque per side is 12,000 Nm. The electrically operated retarder at the transmission input side is electrically actuated with a continuous brake power of 225 kW. The power take-off is primary side driven, connectable, with a maximum output of 110 kW.

Variant

Renk RK 304 transmission with two fan drives on top, infinitely speed controlled. This transmission is suitable for front or rear drive and allows the vehicle to be tow started.

Options for the RK 304 transmission include connecting cable between gear selector, electronic control unit, transmission and vehicle, output gear-type couplings, final drives, sprocket drums, brake actuating system and an external testing device. The version for the Indian Arjun MBT is designated the RK 304-I.

Status

Production. By mid-1999 over 1,500 of these transmissions had been completed. As far as it is known, all applications of the Renk 304 transmission have been in export applications.

Specifications

Property Value
Engine power output (h.p.) 800
Engine power output (h.p.) 1500
Number of forward gears 4
Number of reverse gears 4

Included in:

Product Amount

Arjun (Main battle tank) 1
M48 (Main battle tank) 1
M60 (Main battle tank) 1
Sabra II (Modernization of the vehicle) 1

http://www.army-guide.com/eng/product1452.html

 

[p2prada]

people talking about Arjun consuming more fuel need to know it has APU(T-90/t-72'S DO NOT HAVE) which actually saves lot of fuel because it allows the tank to run in silent mode when the main engine is off. besides APU increases life of the main engine improving logistics and maintainence. more important is reduction in thermal signature!! some more benefits of APU here -



http://www.asdsource.com/source_new...s_(MBT)_&_Armored_Fighting_Vehicles_(AFV).htm

heck even Tank- EX has APU!! Tank - EX is a major improvement which can easily replace T-72's. but as always the army....

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/ISSUE4-5/nitin.html

The T-90 comes with a 1 kW AB-1-P28 APU.

 

[ppgj]

The T-90 comes with a 1 kW AB-1-P28 APU.

can you provide me a proper source that confirms indian T-90's have APU you mentioned.

 

[Armand2REP]

From what I could find on the net http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-90 the T-90A comes with ESSA thermal viewer which is produced in belarus (not sure as I got this from a forum). If these have components from Thales then you are correct.

Besides when did I say anything about France??? If that is the case I whole heartedly agree that France TI are better, but this is not related to the point I made.

Belarus integrates Thales imagers into the Russian hardware.

You said Russia won't outsource their imagers, they already do. Thales has sold to Russia license production for several different imagers because theirs are inferior and they don't have the funds to develop their own.

 

[sayareakd]

can you provide me a proper source that confirms indian T-90's have APU you mentioned.

T90S imported by India does not have APU, while the Arjun tank has got APU.

Russians has said that if Indians want they can provide APU with extra cost.

 

[gb009]

Belarus integrates Thales imagers into the Russian hardware.

In case you missed it, in my reply I had already mentioned that "If these have components from Thales then you are correct." So this first line would be enough. Thank you for pointing out.

You said Russia won't outsource their imagers, they already do.

Now this is not a logical statement. "They already do" does not mean they will continue to do so in the future. It only means as of now they do outsource it, which is not my point. I din't say they don't outsource it. Of-course I am just speculating, so we both can stick to our views as no one can see future.

 

[p2prada]

can you provide me a proper source that confirms indian T-90's have APU you mentioned.

It is standard equipment. All tanks come out with APUs now. It is not something extraordinary. Even Engineering students use APUs or tiny IC engines, that fit the size of our palms.

Our T-72s are also being upgraded with APUs now.
http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/...spend-rs-5000-crore-on-obsolete-t72-tanks.htm

An auxillary power unit (APU) to generate power for the tank's electrical systems. Each APU will cost Rs 0.16 crore.