Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Bhadra]

It's superior in all parameters other than being more heavily built.
...And BOTH T-90s royally break down, in a really short run on flat ground, in front of the whole world to see the exact sorry condition of India's armour. Exactly!

In warfare, quantity itself has a value. One can learn it from Russian doctrines of warfare.
Now, look at this - for the price of 200 Arjun we bought 400 T-90.
Who has higher chances of winning a war in deserts for you ?? 200 guns Vs 400 guns ?
Obviously it is not rocket science.

INSAS was the crap that Army should have inducted in limited numbers & rejected for being problematic. Nobody is supporting quality compromise.

Arjun and INSA and NAGMPATGM 0 very hard lessons learnt.

That's one thing & distortion of parameters is another.

Had it not been so America and West not be inventing one new weapon every day and F-16 woud not have come to block 70.

But No Arjun any further !

 

[Bleh]

In warfare, quantity itself has a value. One can learn it from Russian doctrines of warfare.
Now, look at this - for the price of 200 Arjun we bought 400 T-90.
Who has higher chances of winning a war in deserts for you ?? 200 guns Vs 400 guns ?

If 50% T-90s break down or have optics malfunction in heat, then it isn't 200vs400 anymore, is it?
On top of this they have interior situational awareness or controls. Can they even hit moving-to-moving?

Plus 1 Panther taking out 5 T-34s in WW2, to NATO not losing a single tank to T-72s in two Iraq wars, Russian doctrine was based on using men as canon-fodder... lots & lots & lots of them!!!
You can't be that old to not know that time's have changed & they themselves are abandoning it for uber-costly T-14 & Su-35.

 

[samsaptaka]

Guys, lets be civil and STOP WITH THE ABUSES. I think the problem wrt Arjun is on both sides. Army needed to have worked together with DRDO understood the problems and gone for a compromise solution. DRDO also should take some blame for quoting such high prices. (After all its govt money). That will help long term development of local industry instead of relying on unreliable foriegn countries which can pull the plug as & when it suits their interests. I feel army is not realising this and thinking only short term. Its a chicken & egg situation. Got to start somewhere....

 

[indiandefencefan]

This is a youtube channel I follow and quite like for armored warfare and he has finally come around to making a video on India, and its not pretty.
What do you guys think of his arguments?

Viewer discretion, if you guys like the Arjun, be prepared for salt.

 

[Aghore_King]

This is a youtube channel I follow and quite like for armored warfare and he has finally come around to making a video on India, and its not pretty.
What do you guys think of his arguments?

Viewer discretion, if you guys like the Arjun, be prepared for salt.

Don't know why these Idiots are so obsessed with arjun tank, first of all no one has really inspected real width of turret armour, its all speculation based on some old low resolution photos, this guy has no way to find out real specs and until the official specs come outs, its all bullshit.

 

[G10]

This is a youtube channel I follow and quite like for armored warfare and he has finally come around to making a video on India, and its not pretty.
What do you guys think of his arguments?

Viewer discretion, if you guys like the Arjun, be prepared for salt.

Smells chinese rant to me. Anyway critics are good. You know the room for improvement.

 

[ram singh तोपची]

it does not matter what DRDO or any body says what matters is how many MBTs are and will be used by the end users and by the usage presently and in the future it does not look favorable for Arjun MBT

 

[ram singh तोपची]

I do not know who is at fault [DRDO or Army] but i think it will sadly be the end of the line for Arjun MBT if nothing drastic is done to improve it as per the army requirement

 

[Bhadra]

If 50% T-90s break down or have optics malfunction in heat, then it isn't 200vs400 anymore, is it?
On top of this they have interior situational awareness or controls. Can they even hit moving-to-moving?

Plus 1 Panther taking out 5 T-34s in WW2, to NATO not losing a single tank to T-72s in two Iraq wars, Russian doctrine was based on using men as canon-fodder... lots & lots & lots of them!!!
You can't be that old to not know that time's have changed & they themselves are abandoning it for uber-costly T-14 & Su-35.

So, you think Arjun is Abrahams and Indian border is Iraq?
And 200 out of 400 T-90 will break down but all Arjun's will reach Afghanistan ?

Why do not sell these tanks to Pakistanis who will be interested in driving to Afghanistan.
Arjun's are fit for Museums only. Otherwise they will all land up in Pakistani firing range for target practice ?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Indian T-90 is breaking down in Russia only during annual tank competition. For yeras we were led to belive that t-90 is designed for cold climate in Russiaand not hot and humid climate like India and hence breakage in Rajasthan is normal for T-90. The T-90 is nothing but T-72BU and is a modernized version of the old T-72 which got its ass kicked during both the gulf wars, Chenchniya and other campaigns.
Arjun on the other hand has proved itself in comparitive trials against the T-90 way back in 2007 considerably outgunning it and outrunning it. This fact is well established in CAG audit report inspite of the fact that competition condition were deliberately relaxed for T-90.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

This is a youtube channel I follow and quite like for armored warfare and he has finally come around to making a video on India, and its not pretty.
What do you guys think of his arguments?

Viewer discretion, if you guys like the Arjun, be prepared for salt.

These foreign youtubechannels have zero ground level research. They don't inspect any tank in a personal level. They just pick up information from wikipedia and company brochures and other youtube videos. Beleive me they have zero credibility in the eyes of armed forces(of any nation) in general and are more oriented towards gullible civilians.

 

[indiandefencefan]

Don't know why these Idiots are so obsessed with arjun tank, first of all no one has really inspected real width of turret armour, its all speculation based on some old low resolution photos, this guy has no way to find out real specs and until the official specs come outs, its all bullshit.

To play the devil's advocate, that's besides the point isn't it?
The youtuber is not talking about the thickness of the armor but gaps in the armor. He never once said the armor is weak, but he did say there are too many weak spots in the armor.
You don't need classified information to spot that.

 

[indiandefencefan]

These foreign youtubechannels have zero ground level research. They don't inspect any tank in a personal level. They just pick up information from wikipedia and company brochures and other youtube videos. Beleive me they have zero credibility in the eyes of armed forces(of any nation) in general and are more oriented towards gullible civilians.

I am well familiar with the lack of quality the reason I shared this particular one is that this particular Youtuber's videos are often well researched. I recommend you see his other vids.

My two cents: tanks are not effective as a unit but as a system. No matter how good the Arjun is, it is abysmal as a system due to lack of numbers and a lack of support. Two problems which mutually reinforce each other.

IMO the only way forward is either more orders, or drop the system. Stopgap procurement for the sake of indigenisation will only hurt logistics.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Whether Arjun is inducted in large numbers depends on the army and the government. The point is DRDO gave given a figure of 500-600 to the army to make the project economically viable as well as indegenize many foreign components currently used.
But the bigger picure is what we gained from this programme which started way back in the 70s. There are many things which I can summarize:

1. Ability to design and develop a heavy tank chassis and turret
2. Ability to design and develop 120 mm rifled gun
3. Kanchan armour, all electric turrret drive systems,fire control systems, vectronics, commander panoramic site,Hydrogas suspensions etc.
4. ERA, NERA,ALWCS,ATT etc.
5. 1500 hp engine (under development) and transmission

All these ability gives us a solid background when designing a futuristic armoured systems which DRDO calls it a universal combat platform and the army calls it FRCV.

Now whether army decides to go for imported solutions for not only current systems but even for futuristic systems or not is upto them but the point is we are at a much better situation than in the 80s and 90s when the t series tanks were imorted sighting lack of domestic solutions.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

To play the devil's advocate, that's besides the point isn't it?
The youtuber is not talking about the thickness of the armor but gaps in the armor. He never once said the armor is weak, but he did say there are too many weak spots in the armor.
You don't need classified information to spot that.

If you are talking about the frontal GMS sights are in the left of arjun's turret then let me tell you that it is not a weak spot as there is sufficient armour block at the back of the sight which extends much deeper into the turret than the armour block at the right side of the turret. This gives similar and symmetric armour protection to both sides of the turret. This solution is similar to LEO2A4 and was probably proposed by KMW who were employed as consultants in the initial design phase in the 80s. This matter is well discussed in 2012-13 and 14 in the thread arjun vs t-90 and @ ershaktivel and @ kunal biswas (both legends of DFI) gave a complete armour layout picture of arjun turret.

 

[Bhadra]

Whether Arjun is inducted in large numbers depends on the army and the government. The point is DRDO gave given a figure of 500-600 to the army to make the project economically viable as well as indegenize many foreign components currently used.
But the bigger picure is what we gained from this programme which started way back in the 70s. There are many things which I can summarize:

1. Ability to design and develop a heavy tank chassis and turret
2. Ability to design and develop 120 mm rifled gun
3. Kanchan armour, all electric turrret drive systems,fire control systems, vectronics, commander panoramic site,Hydrogas suspensions etc.
4. ERA, NERA,ALWCS,ATT etc.
5. 1500 hp engine (under development) and transmission

All these ability gives us a solid background when designing a futuristic armoured systems which DRDO calls it a universal combat platform and the army calls it FRCV.

Now whether army decides to go for imported solutions for not only current systems but even for futuristic systems or not is upto them but the point is we are at a much better situation than in the 80s and 90s when the t series tanks were imorted sighting lack of domestic solutions.

You want an order of 500 -600 Arjun !
In how many years will that be delivered - till then army will sit under a banana tree near Gang Canal.
Still the cost of Tank 7.6 millions will not be anywhere near superior T-90 which is half the price.
Why do not you make tanks for USA.? Only they need 67 ton tanks.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

You want an order of 500 -600 Arjun !
In how many years will that be delivered - till then army will sit under a banana tree near Gang Canal.
Still the cost of Tank 7.6 millions will not be anywhere near superior T-90 which is half the price.
Why do not you make tanks for USA.? Only they need 67 ton tanks.

At least read the post carefully before commenting and that too in a sarcastic note.
DRDO have told the army 500-600 to the army to make the project economically viable as well as indegenize many foreign components currently used.

As far as the timeline for production is concerned it will only come into picture once the production begins. CVRDE has gone one step further and is adopting a modular approach as far as Arjun mk2 production is concerned. They have roped in Reliance who will manufacture the redesigned hull and turret sections which along with other subsystems sourced from various Tier 2 and Tier 3 companies. The HVF Avadhi will play the lead integrator role. This will get a boost as far as the newly announced TN defence corridor is being established.

As far as 7.6 million price that is of a pre production prototype and even a kid knows these days that as the volume of production increases, more and more components will be indegenized and the the price will come down to the level of T-90 which is being mass manufactured (1000 licensed built versions) in the same factory CVRDE using many of the same technologies like kanchan armour which is developed for the arjun programme.

As far as 65 ton weight all western mbt abrams,challenger2,leo2,merkava etc has 65 ton weight. Simple thing if you want a protected tank with 4 man crew and NATO standard protection the weight will cross 65 tons. If you want western mbt level protection and a 3 man crew weight will be 55 tons whose example is Leclerc and K2. On the other hand if you want 3 man crew and low level protection especially which got busted in Iraq and Chechnia then you can go for a low weight of 40-45 tons. As simple as that. The 4 man crew and western mbt level protection was demanded by the army PSQR and hence the product which came out i.e arjun is similar to western mbts in terms of weight.

 

[indiandefencefan]

If you are talking about the frontal GMS sights are in the left of arjun's turret then let me tell you that it is not a weak spot as there is sufficient armour block at the back of the sight which extends much deeper into the turret than the armour block at the right side of the turret. This gives similar and symmetric armour protection to both sides of the turret. This solution is similar to LEO2A4 and was probably proposed by KMW who were employed as consultants in the initial design phase in the 80s. This matter is well discussed in 2012-13 and 14 in the thread arjun vs t-90 and @ ershaktivel and @ kunal biswas (both legends of DFI) gave a complete armour layout picture of arjun turret.

@shuvo@y2k10 Would to give the thread a read. Is the link below the one you are referring to?

https://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/arjun-vs-t90-mbt.44522/

Ah I remember them from when I joined. Are they still active?

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Yes that is the thread. We debated for years about the arjun mk1 armour layout back then. This was a time when arjun mk2 was slowly coming into of the picture. It was developed by DRDO at a record speed of 2 years though it needed another 3-4 years to mature.

Unfortunately both of them are not that active now though @ersathtivel sometimes appers in LCA tejas thread. The reason I called them legends of DFI (along with late Ray sir and @sayareakd) was because they were the ones who promoted indegeneous weapons and countered unscientific narrative about the inferiority of desi products compared to shiny foreign toys. Similar to what @Sjha is doing in twitter.

 

[Bhadra]

At least read the post carefully before commenting and that too in a sarcastic note.
DRDO have told the army 500-600 to the army to make the project economically viable as well as indegenize many foreign components currently used.

As far as the timeline for production is concerned it will only come into picture once the production begins. CVRDE has gone one step further and is adopting a modular approach as far as Arjun mk2 production is concerned. They have roped in Reliance who will manufacture the redesigned hull and turret sections which along with other subsystems sourced from various Tier 2 and Tier 3 companies. The HVF Avadhi will play the lead integrator role. This will get a boost as far as the newly announced TN defence corridor is being established.

As far as 7.6 million price that is of a pre production prototype and even a kid knows these days that as the volume of production increases, more and more components will be indegenized and the the price will come down to the level of T-90 which is being mass manufactured (1000 licensed built versions) in the same factory CVRDE using many of the same technologies like kanchan armour which is developed for the arjun programme.

As far as 65 ton weight all western mbt abrams,challenger2,leo2,merkava etc has 65 ton weight. Simple thing if you want a protected tank with 4 man crew and NATO standard protection the weight will cross 65 tons. If you want western mbt level protection and a 3 man crew weight will be 55 tons whose example is Leclerc and K2. On the other hand if you want 3 man crew and low level protection especially which got busted in Iraq and Chechnia then you can go for a low weight of 40-45 tons. As simple as that. The 4 man crew and western mbt level protection was demanded by the army PSQR and hence the product which came out i.e arjun is similar to western mbts in terms of weight.

Heard these arguments and repeated lines which has filled 80% of the server, Enough of It. As if you are making tanks for Germany, France or USA.