Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

garg_bharat

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I think heavy tank is going the way of the battleship, in to oblivion. I would think India should build 35-40 ton light tanks which is a cross between tank and IFV. A smaller gun bore between 76mm and 100mm, ability to fire anti-tank missiles and having active protection system.
 

bose

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Thanks.I stand corrected.
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2007/11/homegrown-tank-engine-project-begins.html
This is old news though. A newer link would help.
Thanks,

I remember now Kirloskar has shown interest to build one but unless there is firm order why will they invest ?

Tanks takes time to mature and evolve... The prime Tank manufacturers like Russians, Americans, British, French and Israelis have 60 - 70 years of Tank design and development experiences ...

Moreover each of these countries solidly backs their local Tank development, American will not buy a Challenger or Leclerc nor French will buy a Merkava ...

Chinese are also struggling even after copy & paste and taking help from out of job Russian tank designers after Soviet fall

In some key areas there is no substitute to indigenous developments be it Tanks, Artillery, Fighter aircraft, Missiles, Ships and Submarines etc ... it can not be foreign maal forever ...
 

Bhadra

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I think heavy tank is going the way of the battleship, in to oblivion. I would think India should build 35-40 ton light tanks which is a cross between tank and IFV. A smaller gun bore between 76mm and 100mm, ability to fire anti-tank missiles and having active protection system.
Yes, heavy tank is coming up for US And NATO country to go on expeditionary mission and screw up Muzzies in Iraq, Syria, Libya,Sudan may be Lebanon, Korea, Chinese coast. They want a tank which can bulldoze a building down to the ground. Take a direct hit of modern RPG and frontal hit of light missiles. They now want tanks for street fight.

They are they and we are we. Our tanks will go into Pakistan at desired areas to draw and destroy Pakistani reserves (mostly mechanised forces). Mobility, flexibility and firepower assumes greater weightage than protection. a 68 ton is big No No for such situations. Why be a heavy weight wrestler if you will not get up from a slush or loose sand.

Then you are making a tank which has this of Cummins, that of GE, that of Micron, that of kirloskar. No one asked you to be an assembler of Bombay Bhindi bazar.

Either you can make a tank or you can not. You can'make many things. No one is cutting your pay for that. If you can not get aside rather than spoil entire wargame. Make a tank and not a toy for Mapboard.

The entire drama is for earning commission in importing foreign parts and then assembling those, that too poorly.

User is the King. Everything is available for a price and your prices are higher.
 

bose

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Arjun is not ideal for direct dash into the enemy territory rather it will be good for holding operations on the Indian side. Arjun due to high armour and ability to take few direct hits can be used to engage enemy tanks that may try to cross the border ...

500 Arjuns will be good number and will also support the local development efforts with high indigenous of 80 % or more. The engine and suspension account to 50% of the import ... that will go away ...
 
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Bleh

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Arjun is not ideal for direct dash into the enemy territory...
How so?
NATO blitzkrieg during Desert Storm & Iraqi Freedom were carried out by heavyweight tanks. The butchering of low silhouette tincans took place in very similar geography and landuse pattern as Western Indian desert areas... no bridges there too.

Off the road, Mark 1A is at least as fast as them & T-90 (while not broken down :biggrin2:), we don't even know how the lighter Mark 2 with would perform if the 1500hp engine is available for it soon enough.

In Punjab sector there isn't going to be any dash. Indian armour will bogged down in ±50km like always...
 

Bhadra

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Arjun is not ideal for direct dash into the enemy territory rather it will be good for holding operations on the Indian side. Arjun due to high armour and ability to take few direct hits can be used to engage enemy tanks that may try to cross the border ...

500 Arjuns will be good number and will also support the local development efforts with high indigenous of 80 % or more. The engine and suspension account to 50% of the import ... that will go away ...
Mobility is the very basic of tank. Even so called "holding operations" by tanks are carried out by maneuver . The tanks are required to carry out short / long maneuver over own territory beseized with canals and obstacles. In Defensive operations also the tank are supposed to outrun enemy tanks to gain a position of advantage. The most vital tank effect - shock action is the product of mobility and fire power and not protection.

Of course unless you wish those to be static pill boxes placed on the homebank of the Canal.
 
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Bhadra

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How so?
NATO blitzkrieg during Desert Storm & Iraqi Freedom were carried out by heavyweight tanks. The butchering of low silhouette tincans took place in very similar geography and landuse pattern as Western Indian desert areas... no bridges there too.

Off the road, Mark 1A is at least as fast as them & T-90 (while not broken down :biggrin2:), we don't even know how the lighter Mark 2 with would perform if the 1500 hp engine is available for it soon enough.

In Punjab sector there isn't going to be any dash. Indian armour will bogged down in ±50km like always...
Neither Indian Thar nor Pakistan Cholistan are deserts of Iraq. There were no plains of Punjab in Iraq. There were no successive lines of 60 meter wide canals or Ditch Cum Bund obstacles and numerious irragation canals criss crossing the terrain - no drainage dams or scrapments. No flood or flooding plans.

Pakistanis are also not Iraqis who will decide not to fight a conventional war and run away leaving their tanks nor India has such a overwhelming airsupport, artillery support or cruise missiles. What did they encountered on their way to Bagdad. Only one small tank battle where their asses had become red.
Can you tell me how many T-72 in Iraq were destroyed by tank fire against number of tanks employed by USA.

You guys do learn some bad things from the forum as hearsay, indeed Then you keep repeating that as DRDO / OFB mantra.
 

bose

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How so?
NATO blitzkrieg during Desert Storm & Iraqi Freedom were carried out by heavyweight tanks. The butchering of low silhouette tincans took place in very similar geography and landuse pattern as Western Indian desert areas... no bridges there too.

Off the road, Mark 1A is at least as fast as them & T-90 (while not broken down :biggrin2:), we don't even know how the lighter Mark 2 with would perform if the 1500hp engine is available for it soon enough.

In Punjab sector there isn't going to be any dash. Indian armour will bogged down in ±50km like always...
The challenge for Arjun in the Pakistani side is the wide network of several natural and man made canals made to slow down the movement of the armored thrust ... IA has built a wide support infrastructure for T-72 movement now can be reused by T-90 S / MS ... but still not yet matured for Arjun due to low numbers of ordered, although we have BLT-Arjun and freight trains to carry Arjun ...

In the Asal Uttar battle the Pakistani Pattons were flooded with water from canal near by...

This is the reason I said keep Arjun at the Indian side we know and select the terrain to operate and can build the supported infrastructure well by roads and rail connection etc ...

Arjun with more powerful engine 1400 HP [ It will require a 1800 HP engine for 68 Tons weight] can out run T-90 S ... May be un manned turret design with three crew for Arjun will bring down the weight...
 
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Bhadra

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The challenge for Arjun in the Pakistani side is the wide network of several natural and man made canals made to slow down the movement of the armored thrust ... IA has built a wide support infrastructure for T-72 movement now can be reused by T-90 S / MS ... but still not yet matured for Arjun due to low numbers of ordered, although we have BLT-Arjun and freight trains to carry Arjun ...

In the Asal Uttar battle the Pakistani Pattons were flooded with water from canal near by...

This is the reason I said keep Arjun at the Indian side we know and select the terrain to operate and can build the supported infrastructure well by roads and rail connection etc ...

Arjun with more powerful engine 1400 HP [ It will require a 1800 HP engine for 68 Tons weight] can out run T-90 S ... May be un manned turret design with three crew for Arjun will bring down the weight...
Please understand - for a tank mobility is not just driving power but its the basis for winning in tank to tank battle. The basic tank tactics is fire and move, whether at individual tank level, troop level or combat command level.

Tanks move to gain a better firing position or occupation of a killing ground like ships in ocean or aircraft in the sky. Hence mobility becomes very vital along with firepower. Better mobility and firepower like longer ranges of ammunition etc add to protection characteristics. Bare protection, due to which DRDO hs made this a 68 ton tank is secondary as compared to mobility and fire power. (of course Army should have decided it).

Arjun lacks in both fields - mobility as also fire power ( No APFSDS, NO INVAR type missile, a Rifled gun for which there is no ammunition).

Tank thapad marane ke liye hai, thapad khane ke liye nahin. Arjun ko Thapad khane ke liye banay gaya hai.
 
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Enquirer

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Very true. The amount of hatred whites have on the internet for Bharatiyas is immeasurable. Its a weird combination of factors - outsourcing, part inferiority/superiority complex, part jealousy, part pure hatred, part xtian/abrahamic hatred, part ignorance etc...
That youtuber might just be a whack job belting nonsense.
More alarming/disturbing should be the fact that most desis are so willing to accept anything said by a ‘gora’ as gospel!
 

Bleh

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The challenge for Arjun in the Pakistani side is the wide network of several natural and man made canals made to slow down the movement of the armored thrust ... IA has built a wide support infrastructure for T-72 movement now can be reused by T-90 S / MS ... but still not yet matured for Arjun due to low numbers of ordered, although we have BLT-Arjun and freight trains to carry Arjun ...

In the Asal Uttar battle the Pakistani Pattons were flooded with water from canal near by...
Ignoring the fact that at every major tank battle in Punjab sector from Chawinda to Banastar to Asal Uttar, 52.5ton Centurion tanks had been the greatest strength & deciding factor, i'm not talking about Punjab sector.
I'm well aware of canals & static defences in place there, that's why i said that Indian tanks won't get behind 50km into Pakistan there... cold start or lukewarm start, they never have.

But in open deserts below there's no such excuse of obstacles... no bridges, no bund, no ditch, no canal. Some minefields, IEDs etc. can be taken care of by Arjun's Electromagnetic-counter mine system & plows.
Yes, it is actually a question of making and circulating the money.... importing 80% Arjun parts.
More standard lies that import pimps keep saying...

Arjuns impost content was 55% by cost; engine, transmission, gun barrel, tracks, FCS... all to be replaced & some already done. T-90 started worse & is now at 15% import content.

As of manufacturing speed, the 43 Armoured Regiment had 45 tanks on 25 May 2009. By June 2011, 100+ tanks were delivered.
Forget about dashing anywhere. Take the Arjun pill box to Kasur town and start MOUT there with 70 ton tank.!!
In open deserts Arjun is much more agile, with more powerful engine & torqued up transmission compared to the T-90, which is the one likely to break down & become a pill-box :biggrin2:.

Mark 1A has no trouble moving on desert sand, Mark 1 even more so.
Neither Indian Thar nor Pakistan Cholistan are deserts of Iraq.
No, Thar & Iraqi deserts aren't much different... Looks similar in photos, have similar geographic features, have similar landuse pattern of vast open areas with small rural settlements. Look it up, I'm sure you didn't check.
Pakistanis are also not Iraqis who will decide not to fight a conventional war and run away leaving their tanks nor India has such a overwhelming airsupport, artillery support or cruise missiles. What did they encountered on their way to Bagdad. Only one small tank battle where their asses had become red.
Can you tell me how many T-72 in Iraq were destroyed by tank fire against number of tanks employed by USA.
I can... i won't. Here's an example, find the rest yourself.
https://books.google.co.in/books?id=yFu1CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA62&lpg=PA62&dq=desert+storm+t-72+created+numbers&source=bl&ots=TY6q-Qe7Je&sig=ACfU3U03zTyBStgWIRoH1Sa02FN9E-bbFg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiU-PHvgYziAhXFMo8KHcxxBKkQ6AEwGnoECAEQAQ#v=onepage&q=desert storm t-72 created numbers&f=false
 
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indiandefencefan

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Will anyone explain me why was the Tank-EX (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_EX) rejected by the army?
It was not rejected by the Army - Russia objected to using existing T72 tanks and were quite willing to sell us new T72 chassis ( at prices = to full tanks ) ofcourse.
Govt. and military policy also played a role in scuttling the project. The policy since 2001 has clearly been prioritizing the imports of T -90 over other platforms. The govt. and army heads seem to favour filling up numbers with a good enough tank rather than spend time developing one more suited to Indian conditions.
 

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Tank ex was an upgrade option for t-72 tanks not only in India but over the world. The turret was sloped an an autoloader could be installed. The armour was a watered down version of Kanchan armour and the turret weighed much less than that of arjun. Overall the tank would have weighed less than 50 tons. However Russia objected to DRDO using it for old t-72 hulls (to prevent it being an upgrade option in the global market for many countries using T-72 for which Russia itself were offering upgrade packages) and offered new hulls at steep prices. Thus it came down to a question of it being a remodelled T-72 or a brand new T-90(which itself is a Russian t-72 upgrade with a new name) for the army brass to decide who choose the latter.
 

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