Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[ppgj]

old video. listen to what an army man who has driven t-72/t-90 and arjun says -

 

[Chota]

To the upcoming field trials by Indian Army between Russian T-90 and indigenous Main Battle Tank Arjun, he said these were to test the conditions best suited to locate these tanks. He said the run-off was not to comparative evaluation of the performance of these battle machines.

This is the latest quote from DRDO head. Army has said in the past that they need to check how-best they can used Arjuns. This doesn't seem to be encouraging IMO.

 

[ppgj]

Initially 12 prototypes were developed during 1983 to 1990 and they were subjected to field trials of more than 20,000 kms and 1100 rounds. Based on user feedback 15 pre-production vehicles were developed during 1990 to 1995 and they were subjected to field trials of more than 70,000 kms and 8000 rounds. After satisfactory trials, the army placed an indent initially for 15 limited series production in Nov 1997 and cumulatively 124 in Mar 2000.

During subsequent production, the Army insisted upon the demonstration of medium fording capabilities of MBT Arjun. Both CVRDE and HVF, continuously worked on war footing, to meet the stringent requirement of medium fording to a height of 2.1m in water with preparation time of 30 minutes as retro-fitment solution and demonstrated successfully to Defence Minister A.K. Antony and other dignitaries on 2nd July 2007. The production tanks were then incorporated with all medium fording modifications and the next batch of nine tanks were handed over by Sep 2007.

One of the main issues during AUCRT trials was the failure of the bearings of Transmission of M/s RENK, Germany, due to rise in lub oil temperature. However, this was immediately solved by modifying the software during AUCRT itself and the efficacy of the software was proved for more than 4000 kms. A comprehensive solution of modifying the bearing assembly by providing a special coating was nonetheless carried out to take care of the temperature problem and the retrofitment of bearing assembly being carried out in all the tanks.

As suggested by Army after AUCRT trials, Arjun tanks were subjected to rigorous trials and assessment by a third party audit (an internationally reputed tank manufacturer). After the extensive evaluation, the reputed tank manufacturer confirmed that the MBT Arjun is an excellent tank with very good mobility and fire power characteristics suitable for Indian desert. They also added inputs such as quality auditing, production procedures and refined calibration procedures for further enhancing the performance of MBT Arjun. DRDO, will be incorporating all these inputs in the next regiment of 62 tanks for handing over to Army before Mar 2010 as desired by the Army.

http://www.indiastrategic.in/topstories324.htm

 

[p2prada]

I never said enmasse what i meant to say was that there is still space for 500 arjuns without counting the T-72's and T-90's, as the older tanks are phased out we could change some of the regiments into arjun .

The T-90 induction is meant for replacement of older tanks. My basis for contention is a similar capability T-90 will be used to replace similar capability tanks without any major changes in the logistics foot print or lifecycle costs. Arjun will increase both logistics footprint, lifecycle costs and extra costs to change in infrastructure by providing a similar capability as the T-90.

No it is not , however much of the ancillary facilities such as machine tools etc remain much the same , i said modified suitably . instead of creating a whole new she-bang we could use some of the older elements that are compatible while brining in new equipment where required.

You are talking about manufacturing. I am not. Can you calculate how much it is going to cost to train 2000 or 3000 men in using the Arjun?

the Comparison you had made was to a T-72(or at least that's what i got from reading it) anyhoo it is not only Iraq but even Georgia and grozny i am talking about the T-series has it's design flaws and the vulnerability of the T-72 to a direct hit with the turret blowing up is one of them that has been well documented there's no escaping that.

T-90. T-72 has its flaws. But, the T-72 is not the T-90. The armour on the T-90 is far superior to the old T-72.

 

[p2prada]

Srry to be butting in between yourself and ppgj but i believe ray sir said

Was it addressed in 2001, when the T-90s were purchased or after 2007 when the T-90s were already being inducted?

The dates matter too.

 

[sayareakd]

old video. listen to what an army man who has driven t-72/t-90 and arjun says -

yeah take a poll from tank drivers, after giving them test drive of Arjun, specially its protection, choice between T series tank and ARjun, you wont find any one chosing for T series tank (T 90S) included.

 

[gb009]

Otherwise whats stopping someone from arguing that this plan (to delay, scuttle, kill DRDO's 1st MBT) was started the day IA was formed.

How bout I highlight 10 lines in a post and say the same. Please make your point clear.Are you saying that in the 56 or so pages in this thread there is proof that this plan was started the day IA was formed? Ok so now you are saying this plan is over half a century old??? I don't even know how to counter your argument because its so random.

When you highlight just half of a sentence and don't add anything from your side it becomes difficult to make sense out of it.
Another example -

It was not the most mature army in the world

So you mean to say IA was the most mature army in the world? Or that there is no proof that IA was not the most mature army in the world. This is getting hilarious. So if you have to reply please do it properly.

then why not build a tank thats around 100 tones with so much armor on it that it could take a whole battalion of Abrams head on and then force the army to buy it,

I am just speculating here (isn't it obvious)! How could someone have proven me wrong even before I posted this.

By the way I am done reading (again) through this entire thread
Anyway no more replies from my side unless something constructive is actually posted in reply rather than giving directives, otherwise it just becomes a you Vs me battle and Arjun is forgotten.

 

[gb009]

yeah take a poll from tank drivers, after giving them test drive of Arjun, specially its protection, choice between T series tank and ARjun, you wont find any one chosing for T series tank (T 90S) included.

But in a way does it not mean we choose to believe a section of the army when it has views similar to ours but doubt the credibility of others in the army who are against our views?

 

[gb009]

Question : will there be any affect on Arjun MK II development of whether IA inducts the Arjun or not? DRDO staff would feel demoralized but anything other than that?

 

[ppgj]

How bout I highlight 10 lines in a post and say the same. Please make your point clear.Are you saying that in the 56 or so pages in this thread there is proof that this plan was started the day IA was formed? Ok so now you are saying this plan is over half a century old??? I don't even know how to counter your argument because its so random.

When you highlight just half of a sentence and don't add anything from your side it becomes difficult to make sense out of it.
Another example -

So you mean to say IA was the most mature army in the world? Or that there is no proof that IA was not the most mature army in the world. This is getting hilarious. So if you have to reply please do it properly.


I am just speculating here (isn't it obvious)! How could someone have proven me wrong even before I posted this.

By the way I am done reading (again) through this entire thread
Anyway no more replies from my side unless something constructive is actually posted in reply rather than giving directives, otherwise it just becomes a you Vs me battle and Arjun is forgotten.

who has given you a directive?? all i suggested to you, looking at some of your comments which i quoted (btw, i admit my mistake in not highlighting 'not the' in the line 'It was not the most mature army in the world'), was to read up the thread- so you know people debating here are not speculating. there are enough links about who stands where vis-a-vis DRDO and the Army.

i also added, if you can go back and check - that you are entitled to your view. i guess that was as polite as one can be. if you feel offended in any way, that is only your interpretation.

as for your 'no replies' - you are most welcome.

 

[Chota]

Assuming army still rejets arjun after trails..does it mean an end of arjun..I mean will there be no Mk2. I mean will the entire Arjun project be shut down instead of spending any further money!!

Whats the status of Tank-Ex. DRDO wants to put Arjun turrent on T72 chassis..Last I heard was that Tank-Ex is a DRDO project and army never asked for it...

Is it true that Army wants DRDO to stop looking into Arjun and start working on some futuristic tank(specs of which are not even released ?) )

Without perfecting current generation tank how can DRDO work on futuristic tank!! Will it not be similar to Marut and LCA saga ? Whats the gaurantee that Army ever accept it if DRDO makes one looking at the current scenario?

One argument DRDO puts forward (one among many) is that 500 Arjuns are needed to break-even...Now since when is DRDO concerned about money..They are not spending from their pockets and the infrastructure build can be used for T-72 modernization ot t-90 assembly

Its intresting to see what happens next..Not sure which way are we heading

 

[p2prada]

same can be said about your answers in support of T-90.

All I have said is T-90 is cheaper, army has more experience and infrastructure already exists without costing us extra in logistics. Do you refute these points?

Or are you suggesting T-90 is way more expensive than the Arjun, army has no experience at all and that the infrastructure for T-90 does not exist at all.

but MOD/GOI has the final say. similar to how they will decide the MRCA out of 2/3 final contestants.

MoD and GoI can overrule or force. They have no say in the final procurement. If they did then the Arjuns would have been selected a long time ago. Similar to how the Finance Ministry requested the RFP be renewed fro the tankers. The services choose what they want and the comptroller general audits the purchase and looks out for corruption.

have posted a link too of the parliament discussion where the minister has answered this. if you do not want to beleive him, nothing can be done.

Except for Lt General Bharadwaj saying the tank is pretty good, all other good comments about Arjun has come from the manufacturers and not from the user.

Lt General's words sound very much like a pat on the back for domestic consumption. Pakistani ACM said that IAF is no match for PAF because they have 500 "American missiles"(AMRAAMs). >>>>>>

The Lt General's comment are pretty much the same. It ensured a lot of chest thumping and inflated egos that's all. His statement merely took the pressure off DRDO for criticisms that the Arjun was not good enough, however they had actually come out with a good tank. Had he also added," We will now need to study if we made the right decision by choosing the T-90," then I would agree with your point.

The Lt General had already stated that Arjun does not boost capability. It only adds to existing capability and that DRDO needs to develop the tank even more if it wants to keep Army's interest. Case in point is the MRCA. Every single fighter in the MRCA is capable of boosting IAF's capability. So, cost of change in infrastructure is secondary because of adding new capability.

The only reason Army went for the T-90 was because it was easy to induct and operationalize compared to Arjun. Had Army been keen on inducting a whole new tank at a higher cost then they would have sent RFPs to US, Israel and Europe instead of just Russia. So, saying they did it for kickbacks is a moot point and a conspiracy theory.

 

[p2prada]

Assuming army still rejets arjun after trails..does it mean an end of arjun..I mean will there be no Mk2. I mean will the entire Arjun project be shut down instead of spending any further money!!

Whats the status of Tank-Ex. DRDO wants to put Arjun turrent on T72 chassis..Last I heard was that Tank-Ex is a DRDO project and army never asked for it...

Is it true that Army wants DRDO to stop looking into Arjun and start working on some futuristic tank(specs of which are not even released ?) )

Without perfecting current generation tank how can DRDO work on futuristic tank!! Will it not be similar to Marut and LCA saga ? Whats the gaurantee that Army ever accept it if DRDO makes one looking at the current scenario?

One argument DRDO puts forward (one among many) is that 500 Arjuns are needed to break-even...Now since when is DRDO concerned about money..They are not spending from their pockets and the infrastructure build can be used for T-72 modernization ot t-90 assembly

Its intresting to see what happens next..Not sure which way are we heading

Arjun may not be chosen. It probably depends on how good the T-95 is. However, DRDO will go ahead with the development of the Mk2 version of Arjun with possibly indigenous components. The futuristic MBT is still a couple of years away. So, that gives DRDO ample opportunities to finish the current development and start a new one based on the experience gained here.

Tank Ex is probably a DRDO project without any army inputs. They merely removed the T-90 autoloader gun and replaced it with the Arjuns manual loader gun and hoped the army will buy it in case Arjun does not make it. It was cancelled some time back.

The DRDO claims to buy 500 tanks is to burst criticism rather than to make the project "feasible." Their idea to force the tank on the Army only to make themselves look good. This is coming after HAL's success at ALH and its subsequent exports while the Arjun does not even have domestic takers. They obviously don't have to care about money.

 

[Chota]

It was cancelled some time back

Thats news for me. Thanks for your inputs

If indeed it gets rejected..tough luck...It reminds me of a postmaster who finally delivers the package after some tough struggle making some ardious climb..getting drenched in rain..exhausted etc..The broken postmaster finally manages to deliver the package but after its use date and in a bad shape..

 

[Agantrope]

Arjun may not be chosen. It probably depends on how good the T-95 is. However, DRDO will go ahead with the development of the Mk2 version of Arjun with possibly indigenous components. The futuristic MBT is still a couple of years away. So, that gives DRDO ample opportunities to finish the current development and start a new one based on the experience gained here.

Tank Ex is probably a DRDO project without any army inputs. They merely removed the T-90 autoloader gun and replaced it with the Arjuns manual loader gun and hoped the army will buy it in case Arjun does not make it. It was cancelled some time back.

The DRDO claims to buy 500 tanks is to burst criticism rather than to make the project "feasible." Their idea to force the tank on the Army only to make themselves look good. This is coming after HAL's success at ALH and its subsequent exports while the Arjun does not even have domestic takers. They obviously don't have to care about money.

Oh.. man come on.. T-95 will be in the class of 55 Tonne (source will be posted sooner). Then with which IA will buy the T-95 and ditch the MBT Arjun. Then it will again contradicts the army doctrine.

If t-95 can fit why not Arjun MBT, Again dont come up with the cost of training blah blah blah... You can afford to lose a tank but not the trained soldiers, they can even take the enemy in a brand new vehicle again

Arjun users have gave a good comment on the arjun, the previous page video is there.

T-90 costed $2.5 million in 2007. Now they have added AC, and many subsystems from the France, israelis and Sweden saab. Does this cost goes beyond for what you are arguing. In case of arjun all the subsystem will be builded in india if the number of order is $$$$$ numbers

Tank-EX is not for IA, The spin off in arjun project to earn some money around the world. So leave the tank-ex saga here. Final say will the MoD antony will flex his muscle for sure as like in Tejas.

 

[ppgj]

All I have said is T-90 is cheaper, army has more experience and infrastructure already exists without costing us extra in logistics. Do you refute these points?

Or are you suggesting T-90 is way more expensive than the Arjun, army has no experience at all and that the infrastructure for T-90 does not exist at all.

p2p, the very fact that we have been debating with each other for so long only means we disagree with each other. that was my point in my reply to you.

you have spoken in your posts broadly about cost, logistics, transporting and experience.

if you take a look at Ray Sir's post he does not about these at all. infact he says 1000 Arjun tanks mark 1 and 2 can be inducted. and so have many army people like gen. shankar roy chowdhary, gen. thamburaj and Ajai shukla who support Arjun. all are people who served the army.

as for T-90 being cheaper, well - not really.

No reasons were given for that delay. Nor did the Ministry of Defence (MoD) reveal the T-90’s ballooning cost, now a whopping Rs 17.5 crore. On November 30, 2006, the MoD told the Lok Sabha that the T-90 tank cost Rs 12 crore apiece. Parliament does not yet know about the 50 per cent rise in cost.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html

how is it cheaper?? Arjun is about the same cost.

i, like the rest of the members who have debated with you, don't see the issue of logistics the same way as you do.

as for experience, i have posted this before http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?autono=326234

Arjun is good for even the people who have not experienced it before.

as for transporting, i have posted this before http://frontierindia.net/arjun-mbt-weight-implications/

in essence we have disagreed and hence my point "same can be said about your answers in support of T-90".

MoD and GoI can overrule or force. They have no say in the final procurement. If they did then the Arjuns would have been selected a long time ago.

well you call it overrule or force. GOI/MOD will have final say irrespective of army wanting or not wanting. i only wish MOD shows some gut.

Except for Lt General Bharadwaj saying the tank is pretty good, all other good comments about Arjun has come from the manufacturers and not from the user.

Lt General's words sound very much like a pat on the back for domestic consumption.

you are entitled to your view. however post october trials some things are changing for the better -

Also under construction at HVF are 124 units of the Indian locally-designed Arjun MBT, which recently underwent comparative trials with the T-72 and T-90S. These desert trials, it is learned, were fairly successful which has pushed the army to raise the initial order to 250 enough for six regiments with a possible product improved order for another 250 as Mark II version.

http://forceindia.net/lastmonth/coverstory4.aspx

On Arjun, the Main Battle Tank developed by the DRDO, Saraswat said that the Army was "comfortable" with the first batch of 124 tanks. A second batch will be supplied soon.

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/...|xOZ5Y=&SEO=DRDO, V K Saraswat, Kaveri engine

i am mildly happy.

Pakistani ACM said that IAF is no match for PAF because they have 500 "American missiles"(AMRAAMs). >>>>>>

OT. pakistan can say anything. they will keep getting whacked.

The Lt General's comment are pretty much the same. It ensured a lot of chest thumping and inflated egos that's all. His statement merely took the pressure off DRDO for criticisms that the Arjun was not good enough, however they had actually come out with a good tank. Had he also added," We will now need to study if we made the right decision by choosing the T-90," then I would agree with your point.

if the above links about additional Arjuns come true, you will have to agree with me.

The Lt General had already stated that Arjun does not boost capability. It only adds to existing capability and that DRDO needs to develop the tank even more if it wants to keep Army's interest.

this Lt. general has been saying different things at different times. i don't value his statements.

Case in point is the MRCA. Every single fighter in the MRCA is capable of boosting IAF's capability. So, cost of change in infrastructure is secondary because of adding new capability.

Arjun outruns, outscores and protects the crew far better vis-a-vis T-90. i feel it boosts the capability. so, infrastructure should be secondary.

The only reason Army went for the T-90 was because it was easy to induct and operationalize compared to Arjun.

easy without crucial systems. worst of all is this -

Worse was to follow when the initial batch of 310 T-90s entered service (124 bought off-the-shelf and 186 as knocked-down kits). It quickly became evident — and that too during Operation Parakram, with India poised for battle against Pakistan — that the T-90s were not battleworthy.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/02/t-90-tank-piercing-armys-armour-of.html

now they are spending a whole lot of time upgrading them incrementally adding to cost.

it is no more cheaper than Arjun. may be equal or more.

Had Army been keen on inducting a whole new tank at a higher cost then they would have sent RFPs to US, Israel and Europe instead of just Russia.

point does not arise because that was never on the plate.

So, saying they did it for kickbacks is a moot point and a conspiracy theory.

i have never spoken about kickbacks. as for conspiracy (as in sabotage), i have given proper links.

 

[notinlove]

To bypass his opposition, the MoD and the army reached an understanding with Rosvoorouzhenie, Russia’s arms export agency. The T-90 would be priced only marginally higher than the T-72 by removing key T-90 systems; India would procure those through supplementary contracts after the T-90 entered service. Excluded from India’s T-90s was the Shtora active protection system, which protects the T-90 from incoming enemy missiles. This was done knowing well that Pakistan’s anti-tank defences are based heavily on missiles.

Other important systems were also pared. The MoD opted to buy reduced numbers of the INVAR missile, which the T-90 fires. Maintenance vehicles, which are vital to keep the T-90s running, were not included in the contract. All this allowed the government to declare before Parliament that the Russian T-90s cost just Rs 11 crore, while the assembled-in-India T-90s were Rs 12 crore apiece.

I have a question , does the 16.8 crore price tag of arjun includes
1.Lahat
2.Maintenance vehicles which keep it running

If not then the price difference is still the same isn't it?

 

[sayareakd]

I dont know if you know eco or not, at present order for HVF is 124 tanks, its engine and powerpack is not indian, if large order is given, Engine is already under development and with TATA envlove it wont be that difficult, given the experience TATA has got.

Therefore total order will go to 500 tank economies of scale will kick in.

In case of Russian T 90 tank a part from TOT fee you have production cost. no one has so far disclose the TOT cost of T 90 minus the Shorta-1 and no auxiliary power supply. (BTW cost also include commission paid to all).

CLGM which is JV product of LAHAT build to Indian specification.

 

[sayareakd]

NIL i can go on and on, i had two years of research on the tank, after i checked it out personally, earlier i too thought that it was substandard product, but when i checked it amour and compare it to T series tank, it was shocking how the T series armour was. Arjun has 4 time the amour in same area.

Arjun is build for crew safety.

 

[p2prada]

Oh.. man come on.. T-95 will be in the class of 55 Tonne (source will be posted sooner). Then with which IA will buy the T-95 and ditch the MBT Arjun. Then it will again contradicts the army doctrine.

If t-95 can fit why not Arjun MBT, Again dont come up with the cost of training blah blah blah... You can afford to lose a tank but not the trained soldiers, they can even take the enemy in a brand new vehicle again

Arjun users have gave a good comment on the arjun, the previous page video is there.

T-90 costed $2.5 million in 2007. Now they have added AC, and many subsystems from the France, israelis and Sweden saab. Does this cost goes beyond for what you are arguing. In case of arjun all the subsystem will be builded in india if the number of order is $$$$$ numbers

Tank-EX is not for IA, The spin off in arjun project to earn some money around the world. So leave the tank-ex saga here. Final say will the MoD antony will flex his muscle for sure as like in Tejas.

You are posting on the basis that the T-95 is 55 tons. How sure are you about it? The Russians have not released anything about it.

I am guessing a 50 ton tank with a new gun. That's all.