Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[The Last Stand]

Overestimeted.
No way for 650mm vs KE for Arjun. And for more then 1000mm cs HEAT.

When T-72B upgrades(without ERA) equal 550 mm against KE and 950 against HEAT, why can't Arjun with special composites and ERA be 1.5 times better?

Is the DRDO stupid? Kanchan composite alone will be equal to 560+ mm RHA against and NERA will easily add 200 mm of protection. Why are you alone not accepting that Arjun can have good armour? The final Arjun Mk.2 will surely have more than 700 mm protection for KE and 1050+ for CE.

I apologize for getting angry but you keep commenting on the Arjun. You assume that DRDO designers are stupid when you guesstimate armour protection based on thickness you measure which will be extremely inaccurate as composites work in a different way than RHA.

@Damian, there is no such thing as constructive criticism. Criticism is criticism for the victim in the psychological way. Believe me, I know more about how people's emotions work than you do. Criticism might or might not make a person improve. It depends on who is at the receiving end. If I criticise you, you will not take it seriously but your mind will and it will remember and it will influence your decisions later in the day, week or even month.

Regards,
Keshav

 

[militarysta]

When T-72B upgrades(without ERA) equal 550 mm against KE and 950 against HEAT, why can't Arjun with special composites and ERA be 1.5 times better?

Becouse Ob.184 alias T-72B is without ERA circa 470-540mm vs KE and 530-600mm vs HEAT. Arjun shoud be better, but there is no option that Arjun have better armour then M1A2, M1A1HA, Leo-2A5-A6, CR2, or Leclerc XXI. And value 650mm rha vs KE + have only most modern now tanks.

Kanchan composite alone will be equal to 560+ mm RHA against and NERA will easily add 200 mm of protection.

And this value is based on what accualy?

Why are you alone not accepting that Arjun can have good armour?

Becouse here is no mirracle? On Ukraina, Russia, Germany, France, Britan, USA after 50yers of developmend "special armour" those tanks achive level circa 650-700mm+ RHA vs KE. India haven't sucht expiriences, technology base, armour expiriences, confirm technology transfer, and others.
In armour thema there is no mirracle. Sorry. The same is about Chinesee tank or Pak tank. But in that laste case we have confirm armour technology transfer from Urkiana...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Arjun`s Kanchan Armour is a state secret, What we know already is very much via Gov sources only..

What gone through in last 40 years of this tank development and research is unknown to Public domain except the Product which is ready..

 

[Dejawolf]

do you have any source for this or is this a pigment of your imagination?

it's an estimate based on the thickness of the armour array and the best possible KE/HEAT resistance for the composites.

 

[Dejawolf]

Overestimeted.
No way for 650mm vs KE for Arjun. And for more then 1000mm cs HEAT.

I think it's possible for 650mm vs KE, at least LOS on the sloped turret sides. and >1000mm vs HEAT should be possible with ERA.

 

[The Last Stand]

Arjun`s Kanchan Armour is a state secret, What we know already is very much via Gov sources only..

What gone through in last 40 years of this tank development and research is unknown to Public domain except the Product which is ready..

Very true. When Kanchan armour has been in development for just 10 years lesser than Burlington, why won't it give the protection Burlington gave on Challenger 1?
Remember that the designer of the Leopard 2 (Krauss-maffei) helped to design the Arjun which is the reason that Arjun and Leo 2A4 share their weakspots. What's the possibility that Krauss did not help on the armour? Exactly 0. IMI evaluated the Arjun and said that it's armour was excellent. Arjun's armour will be comparable to the Challenger 1 at worst.

 

[Dejawolf]

Very true. When Kanchan armour has been in development for just 10 years lesser than Burlington, why won't it give the protection Burlington gave on Challenger 1?
Remember that the designer of the Leopard 2 (Krauss-maffei) helped to design the Arjun which is the reason that Arjun and Leo 2A4 share their weakspots. What's the possibility that Krauss did not help on the armour? Exactly 0. IMI evaluated the Arjun and said that it's armour was excellent. Arjun's armour will be comparable to the Challenger 1 at worst.

650-750mm KE on Arjun is using the TE values for burlington composites.

 

[methos]

Remember that the designer of the Leopard 2 (Krauss-maffei) helped to design the Arjun which is the reason that Arjun and Leo 2A4 share their weakspots. What's the possibility that Krauss did not help on the armour?

That's a stupid myth. Krauss-Maffei did have nothing to do with the Arjun. Krauss-Maffei also wasn't responsible for designing the Leopard 2 turret.

Arjun's armour will be comparable to the Challenger 1 at worst.

And Challenger 1's armour is nothing impressive if you take a look at the common estimates.

 

[ersakthivel]

When T-72B upgrades(without ERA) equal 550 mm against KE and 950 against HEAT, why can't Arjun with special composites and ERA be 1.5 times better?

Is the DRDO stupid? Kanchan composite alone will be equal to 560+ mm RHA against and NERA will easily add 200 mm of protection. Why are you alone not accepting that Arjun can have good armour? The final Arjun Mk.2 will surely have more than 700 mm protection for KE and 1050+ for CE.

I apologize for getting angry but you keep commenting on the Arjun. You assume that DRDO designers are stupid when you guesstimate armour protection based on thickness you measure which will be extremely inaccurate as composites work in a different way than RHA.

@Damian, there is no such thing as constructive criticism. Criticism is criticism for the victim in the psychological way. Believe me, I know more about how people's emotions work than you do. Criticism might or might not make a person improve. It depends on who is at the receiving end. If I criticise you, you will not take it seriously but your mind will and it will remember and it will influence your decisions later in the day, week or even month.

Regards,
Keshav

the guys with whom who are trying to reason will do the same stuff stuff all day long , 365 days a year.they will never concede a single point.

they have no engineering background , neither had they ever seen the ARJUn tank. But they are always sure about one thing. Since it is the first tank made by India , it should be inferior twice over to any tank currently in production.

 

[rohit b3]

I guess we are aware of the fact the the Arjun survived a point blank hit from a T-72, and defeated most modern Indian and Isreali Armour Piercing AFSPDS rounds.

It just does not look good, comparing Arjun's armour with Challenger 1's.

Challenger 2's armour is famous cause it survived T-72s and multiple RPG Hits in the Gulf Wars.

About Arjun, we can be sure about one thing, that it would never be taken down by a T-72. And RPGs arent the best armour piercers in the modern world.

 

[Damian]

I guess we are aware of the fact the the Arjun survived a point blank hit from a T-72, and defeated most modern Indian and Isreali Armour Piercing AFSPDS rounds.

I guess you are not aware that this ammunition represent level of the 1980's or are even older, thus their performance by todays standards is... pathethic?

Challenger 2's armour is famous cause it survived T-72s and multiple RPG Hits in the Gulf Wars.

You mean 2003 Operation Iraqi Freedom or Operation Telic as British call them, because Challenger 2 was used only then in Persian Gulf, in 1991 it was it's predecessor Challenger 1.

And again, Iraqi ammunition was old and it's performance was... pathethic even for 1990's.

About Arjun, we can be sure about one thing, that it would never be taken down by a T-72.

Oh really, and you are sure because of test that involved old ammunition?

And RPGs arent the best armour piercers in the modern world.

It depends on design, there are worser and better, older and newer. Such statement can be made only by someone without bigger knowledge about subject.

 

[Dejawolf]

I guess we are aware of the fact the the Arjun survived a point blank hit from a T-72, and defeated most modern Indian and Isreali Armour Piercing AFSPDS rounds.

It just does not look good, comparing Arjun's armour with Challenger 1's.

Challenger 2's armour is famous cause it survived T-72s and multiple RPG Hits in the Gulf Wars.

About Arjun, we can be sure about one thing, that it would never be taken down by a T-72. And RPGs arent the best armour piercers in the modern world.

which T-72 round exactly?

3BM-9? 3BM-15? 3BM-22? 3BM-26 or maybe 3BM-29. or 3BM-32 or 3BM-42.
and in case you wonder, it matters. 3BM-9 looks like this:

all steel penetrator with certified penetration of 245mm@2000 meters. it's one of the rounds the iraqis used, and generally the round
sold with export tanks like the T-72M.

this one from 1986 however:

WHA penetrator, 500mm certified penetration@2000m.

and then there's this:

3BM-46 Svinets, capable of penetrating 650mm@2000m.
better hope none of your enemies has developed something similar to this one.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

3BM-9 & CL 3254 ..

106mm RCL Heat Round..

 

[The Last Stand]

3BM-9 & CL 3254 ..

106mm RCL Heat Round..

106 mm RCL round (IIRC we bought U.S ammo along with the guns) could penetrate 600 mm+ RHA (70's ammo). Which would equate to around 450 mm since composites provide excellent protection against shaped charges. 1980 Kanchan armour survived repeated hits and was not penetrated. 30 years of development after that - won't Kanchan provide at least 700 now?

Tests of Arjun armour now - took several hits from Israeli Mk 2 ammunition (WHA alloy, penetration - 500+ mm RHA) and survived. Several hits, not one. After which several other KE projectiles (Mk1 125 mm and Russian 3BM42 (Not modern version, penetration 450 mm) were fired on the same plate. Non-penetrating hits again.

Then M40 RCL gun with most modern ammunition (Austrian - 700 mm+ - IIRC bought before Kargil) was fired. Armour wasn't penetrated even after several hits.

Then 3BM42 was fired on another plate. The new plate withstood several hits and wasn't penetrated. DRDO was surprised and asked MoD if Russians had supplied training ammunition.

Regards,
Keshav

 

[The Last Stand]

That's a stupid myth. Krauss-Maffei did have nothing to do with the Arjun. Krauss-Maffei also wasn't responsible for designing the Leopard 2 turret.



And Challenger 1's armour is nothing impressive if you take a look at the common estimates.

Challenger 1's armour defeated multiple 125 mm HEAT rounds (only proper round Iraq had IIRC) at ~500 m range. The rounds (don't know exact one) most likely HEAT-FS 3BK18 - penetrate 500 mm which is equal to 360-380 mm RHA which is not impressive but is the worst case scenario for Arjun's armour.

 

[methos]

106 mm RCL round (IIRC we bought U.S ammo along with the guns) could penetrate 600 mm+ RHA (70's ammo).

1970's 106 mm recoilless rifle ammunition did penetrate only 400 to 500 mm RHA at best. For penetrating 600 - 700 mm RHA modern (1990's ammo or newer) is required. Early 106 mm recoilless rifle ammunition did penetrate 300 - 350 mm RHA.

Challenger 1's armour defeated multiple 125 mm HEAT rounds (only proper round Iraq had IIRC) at ~500 m range. The rounds (don't know exact one) most likely HEAT-FS 3BK18 - penetrate 500 mm which is equal to 360-380 mm RHA which is not impressive but is the worst case scenario for Arjun's armour.

The Challenger 1's used during Operation Desert Storm didn't meet a single T-72, they only fought T-54s and modifications of it. The available types of 125 mm HEAT ammunition did all penetrate 500 mm RHA or less. 3BK-18 wasn't exported to Iraq prior ODS, they used 3BK-7 and 3BK-10(M) ammunition. If they were hit by HEAT-FS ammunition from tanks, then it had to be 100 mm or 115 mm ammunition, capable of penetration just above 400 mm RHA.
I think you do not understand the idea of RHA properly if you want to say that 500 mm RHA penetration equals 360 - 380 mm RHA...

 

[The Last Stand]

1970's 106 mm recoilless rifle ammunition did penetrate only 400 to 500 mm RHA at best. For penetrating 600 - 700 mm RHA modern (1990's ammo or newer) is required. Early 106 mm recoilless rifle ammunition did penetrate 300 - 350 mm RHA.




The Challenger 1's used during Operation Desert Storm didn't meet a single T-72, they only fought T-54s and modifications of it. The available types of 125 mm HEAT ammunition did all penetrate 500 mm RHA or less. 3BK-18 wasn't exported to Iraq prior ODS, they used 3BK-7 and 3BK-10(M) ammunition. If they were hit by HEAT-FS ammunition from tanks, then it had to be 100 mm or 115 mm ammunition, capable of penetration just above 400 mm RHA.
I think you do not understand the idea of RHA properly if you want to say that 500 mm RHA penetration equals 360 - 380 mm RHA...

I meant CHA not RHA sorry

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Round OFB produce has 650mm penetration..

1970's 106 mm recoilless rifle ammunition did penetrate only 400 to 500 mm RHA at best. For penetrating 600 - 700 mm RHA modern (1990's ammo or newer) is required. Early 106 mm recoilless rifle ammunition did penetrate 300 - 350 mm RHA..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Arjun MK-1/2

 

[militarysta]

3BM-9 & CL 3254 ..

106mm RCL Heat Round..

106 mm RCL round (...) Tests of Arjun armour now - took several hits from Israeli Mk 2 ammunition and survived. Several hits, not one. After which several other KE projectiles and Russian 3BM42 were fired on the same plate. Non-penetrating hits again.

And where is so mirracle here?

3BM9 achivable perforation - 290mm RHA P(0) circa 340mm
3BM42 achivable perforation - 520mm RHA P(0) circa 550mm
CL Mk2 achivable perforation - 540mm RHA (per analoge to PRONIT) P(0)570mm
106mm RCL - circa ~680-720mm RHA (HEAT)

This all is circa middle 1980s level (Leo-2A4 from circa 1986), of course Arjun Kanchan armour can be better but those test prooofs only that Kanchan in Arjun can hold half of the 1980s. level - if better ammo will be tested then we can sey that Kanchan can windstand more, but those ammo proofs only that what I'd wrote here -half of 1980s.