Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

sayareakd

New Member
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
17,734
Likes
18,953
Country flag
if the army can airlift an arjun regiment at dbo the chinese tents will vanish.a similar masterstroke was played by gen cariappa during 1947-48 war when tanks were deployed against paki intruders at 12000ft and turned the tide of the war in our favour.
We can send Arjun on C17 no problem on that, only problem is that it is mountain area, not much scope for Tanks to move, therefore they can be easy target for anti tank crew and weapons.

here T72 in Leh

 

WMD

New Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2013
Messages
624
Likes
794
@Kunal Biswas

Is there any plans to install any type of active protection system on Arjun Mk-II?
also if there is any plans to procure such systems for our T-90 tanks?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
@WMD,

Arjun MK-2 is suppose to have Iron fist HARD kill APS, T-90S also may get APS..
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
For such a terrain one need Light tanks, Arjun or T-90/72M1 does not work well up there..

if the army can airlift an arjun regiment at dbo the chinese tents will vanish.a similar masterstroke was played by gen cariappa during 1947-48 war when tanks were deployed against paki intruders at 12000ft and turned the tide of the war in our favour.
 

The Last Stand

New Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
1,406
Likes
980
Country flag
@Damian

300 mm penetration claim is bogus. OFB, DRDO and cartridge suppliers say that the gun defeats NATO standard triple heavy target at 5 km which itself is estimated as equal to 300 mm vs KE on tanknet (didn't bookmark the source, still searching :mad:).

At 5 km, round speed would have drastically slowed down and also the round has to punch through three separate plates. So the penetration must be more by at least 100 mm.

Also, @zraver (ex-tanker in a NATO army IIRC) estimated the round's energy as 9.2 MJ in http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...le-tanks-armour-technology-27.html#post159038

Also the Arjun APFSDS uses steel obturating cup which enhances penetration of Tungsten alloys.
@methos or @militarysta please do the Lanz-Odermatt equation (I don't know how to do)

Some info is down:
120 Millimetre MBT Arjun Armament System



Thanks to Kunal Biswas

Regards,
Keshav
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
@Keshav Murali,

300mm penetration is mentioned in OFB poster, But not mention at what angle, Also it is good to note that DRDO chief mention that present Arjun ammo can penetrate 460mm..
 
Last edited by a moderator:

methos

New Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Messages
799
Likes
304
Country flag
300 mm penetration claim is bogus. OFB, DRDO and cartridge suppliers say that the gun defeats NATO standard triple heavy target at 5 km which itself is estimated as equal to 300 mm vs KE on tanknet (didn't bookmark the source, still searching :mad:).
300 mm RHA penetration at 2,000 m is claimed by DRDO. Still there are various unkown variables like the angle of impact as mentioned by Kunal (whereas penetration depth does increase with sloping). The penetration criteria also hasn't been mentioned.
The Soviets for example distinguished between "average penetration" and "certified penetration", whereas average penetration was typically 40 to 60 mm greater. 300 mm RHA certified penetration could equal 350 mm RHA average penetration.

The reference to the NATO heavy triple target is not really useful. Don't forget that this target was made to represent the protection level of the T-10 hull side at 30° angle of impact (which is a 1950's heavy tank). Modern 105 mm APFSDS can penetrate it at 5,000 m.
Also using a static value for the RHA equivalency is in this case not useful, because the high level of protection this target offered is mainly based on the ammunition used (essentially APDS with brittle tungsten-carbide core or sheated steel APFSDS with tungsten alloy core). Modern APFSDS will nearly ignore the outer layer because of the T/d effect. Test with APFSDS have revealed that the protection of (spaced) steel plates decreases by 60 to 90% in dependence of the ratio of plate thickness to diameter. To provide "full" protection against modern APFSDS, steel plates should have a thickness of 3 times the projectile diameter.


Also, @zraver (ex-tanker in a NATO army IIRC) estimated the round's energy as 9.2 MJ in http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...le-tanks-armour-technology-27.html#post159038
No need to estimate. Kinetic energy is mass*velocity²/2. Thus the Indian 120 mm APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9.2 MJ for the complete projectile. The early German 120 mm APFSDS (including DM13 from 1979) had a muzzle energy of 9.8 MJ for the complete projectile. Current NATO ammunition has a muzzle energy of above 12 MJ (12.7 MJ for DM53).
 
Last edited by a moderator:

The Last Stand

New Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
1,406
Likes
980
Country flag
300 mm RHA penetration at 2,000 m is claimed by DRDO. Still there are various unkown variables like the angle of impact as mentioned by Kunal (whereas penetration depth does increase with sloping). The penetration criteria also hasn't been mentioned.
The Soviets for example distinguished between "average penetration" and "certified penetration", whereas average penetration was typically 40 to 60 mm greater. 300 mm RHA certified penetration could equal 350 mm RHA average penetration.

The reference to the NATO heavy triple target is not really useful. Don't forget that this target was made to represent the protection level of the T-10 hull side at 30° angle of impact (which is a 1950's heavy tank). Modern 105 mm APFSDS can penetrate it at 5,000 m.
Also using a static value for the RHA equivalency is in this case not useful, because the high level of protection this target offered is mainly based on the ammunition used (essentially APDS with brittle tungsten-carbide core or sheated steel APFSDS with tungsten alloy core). Modern APFSDS will nearly ignore the outer layer because of the T/d effect. Test with APFSDS have revealed that the protection of (spaced) steel plates decreases by 60 to 90% in dependence of the ratio of plate thickness to diameter. To provide "full" protection against modern APFSDS, steel plates should have a thickness of 3 times the projectile diameter.




No need to estimate. Kinetic energy is mass*velocity²/2. Thus the Indian 120 mm APFSDS has a muzzle energy of 9.2 MJ for the complete projectile. The early German 120 mm APFSDS (including DM13 from 1979) had a muzzle energy of 9.8 MJ for the complete projectile. Current NATO ammunition has a muzzle energy of above 12 MJ (12.7 MJ for DM53).
Thanks methos. But the values for mass and velocity are in kg and km/s or g and m/s or what else? I get 16 :shocked:

Edit: Got correctly as 9.26

Also, round still has more muzzle energy than 3BM42M Lekalo (tanknet calculations assume projectile weight as 4.85 kg i.e equal to Svinets and say that muzzle energy is 7.4 MJ)

Edit: Using Fofanov's values I get 7.04 MJ. Does it matter?

Can you please use the Lanz-Odermatt or Andersen equation to calculate the penetration? :yey:

Edit: Getting boring editing stuff DM13 penetration at 60 degrees is 230. How much at 0?
 
Last edited:

The Last Stand

New Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
1,406
Likes
980
Country flag
@Keshav Murali,

300mm penetration is mentioned in OFB poster, But not mention at what angle, Also it is good to note that DRDO chief mention that present Arjun ammo can penetrate 460mm..
In a PM I requested Damian to calculate the penetration if this value was given on a plate angled at 66 degrees. He told me to contact methos or militarysta. Remember that Chinese Type II M penetrates only 220 mm at 66 degrees but 550 at 0. (How? 3BM42 Mango penetrates 220 mm at 60 degrees - not much of difference isn't it - and still certified penetration is 450. Yes I know it can penetrate 500)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

methos

New Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2011
Messages
799
Likes
304
Country flag
Also, round still has more muzzle energy than 3BM42M Lekalo (tanknet calculations assume projectile weight as 4.85 kg i.e equal to Svinets and say that muzzle energy is 7.4 MJ)
You are comparing apples with bananas. We need to distinguish between three different values:
1.) projectile (projectile assembly) - the projectile assembly consists of the in-flight projectile and the sabot.
2.) in-flight projectile - the "dart" which is kept in place by the sabot. This also includes the weight generated by tip, fins and tracer.
3.) penetrator - only the heavy metal rod inside the in-flight projectile

The differences between these weight values is fairly large. The U.S.-American M829A1 APFSDS for example has a 9 kg projectile including sabot, but only a 4.6 kg penetrator. The Russian 3BM-42 Mango APFSDS has a 7.05 kg projectile assembly, which consists of 2.2 kg sabot and a 4.85 kg in-flight projectile (andless than 2 kg penetrator). The muzzle energy of the 3BM-42 projectile is 10 MJ and 7 MJ for the in-flight projectile. But the energy effiency (how much of this energy is actually generated by the penetrator) is worse than on most other rounds due to the projectile constructor.
For the Indian 120 mm APFSDS there is not enough data to calculate the penetrator energy.


Can you please use the Lanz-Odermatt or Andersen equation to calculate the penetration? :yey:
Based on the very few images actually showing the Indian 120 mm APFSDS it should be about ~480 mm long and have a diameter of about 28 mm. It seems like there is no public available source stating the deceleration (decrease of velocity), so I'd assume it would be 60 m/s/km (for reference, DM53: 55 m/s/km, M829A1: 65 m/s/km).
Such an APFSDS would then end up with a penetration of 430 mm into a 235 HB plate sloped at 60° at 2,000 m or 367 mm at 0°.
235 HB is however very soft steel, as used on the Patton (M47, M48 & M60) tanks. The Soviet T-72 uses reportedly 270 HB steel - then the armour penetration would decrease to 405 mm into a 60° sloped plate at 2,000 m and 347 mm into 270 HB steel at 0°.


Getting boring editing stuff[/B] DM13 penetration at 60 degrees is 230. How much at 0?
This value comes originally from Stefan Kotsch's website, who was a member of the East-German and later of the unified German army. The problem here is that DM13 is a very old round and it's construction is not very advanced (it is no monoblock round). Depending on the tip construction it would penetrate about 400 mm RHA at 0° (if the tip is good constructed, it will increase the penetration against sloped plates) or ~440 mm at 0° (if the tip is bad constructed, it does not increase the penetration by much, see old Soviet APFSDS for reference).


Remember that Chinese Type II M penetrates only 220 mm at 66 degrees but 550 at 0. (How? 3BM42 Mango penetrates 220 mm at 60 degrees - not much of difference isn't it - and still certified penetration is 450. Yes I know it can penetrate 500)
220 mm at 66° equals 540.8 mm line-of-sight. 220 mm at 60° equals 440 mm line-of-sight. Maybe both rounds use rather disavanced penetrator/tip construction, which does not enhance penetration against sloped targets?


Also, (Keep forgetting) Is this page reliable: http://echo501.tripod.com/Military/120ammo.htm
It's a website made for wargaming. It isn't reliable, you can find hundred such sites in the internet. Most don't use any reference, but if they do they often reference random forums.
 

hest

New Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
568
Likes
56
The differences between these weight values is fairly large. The U.S.-American M829A1 APFSDS for example has a 9 kg projectile including sabot, but only a 4.6 kg penetrator. The Russian 3BM-42 Mango APFSDS has a 7.05 kg projectile assembly, which consists of 2.2 kg sabot and a 4.85 kg in-flight projectile (andless than 2 kg penetrator). The muzzle energy of the 3BM-42 projectile is 10 MJ and 7 MJ for the in-flight projectile. But the energy effiency (how much of this energy is actually generated by the penetrator) is worse than on most other rounds due to the projectile constructor.
For the Indian 120 mm APFSDS there is not enough data to calculate the penetrator energy.
It is flawed comparison. A longer and heavier penetrator will inherently be "more efficient" due to greater relation of penetrator mass and lower parasitic. Efficiency of 3BM42 and M829A1 correspond with their respective dimensions.

This value comes originally from Stefan Kotsch's website, who was a member of the East-German and later of the unified German army. The problem here is that DM13 is a very old round and it's construction is not very advanced (it is no monoblock round). Depending on the tip construction it would penetrate about 400 mm RHA at 0° (if the tip is good constructed, it will increase the penetration against sloped plates) or ~440 mm at 0° (if the tip is bad constructed, it does not increase the penetration by much, see old Soviet APFSDS for reference).
This is erroneous concept. Initial soviet rounds of "combined" construction as 3BM-15 (lower) incorporated a heavy alloy (wolframium-carbide) element in leading part of penetrator.



In comparison with those of monoblock structure, such rounds increased penetration against homogeneous armour under small angles of incidence, up to 17 degrees from normal. Under greater angle and against laminated armour this element suffered denormalisation, and projectile lost the advantage being no different than monoblock rounds.

Later on this element was relocated to final sector, back, to achieve the opposite, increased performance against sloped armour.



Latter rounds as 3BM-42 made use of more complex segmented structure which increased performance against composite armour (Burlington, etc).


220 mm at 66° equals 540.8 mm line-of-sight. 220 mm at 60° equals 440 mm line-of-sight. Maybe both rounds use rather disavanced penetrator/tip construction, which does not enhance penetration against sloped targets?
3BM-42 penetrates 460 mm RHA under normal and can surpass 500 mm from 60 degrees.
 

The Last Stand

New Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
1,406
Likes
980
Country flag
Oh well. Looks bleak for the Arjun. But I am optimist and I say that round design has changed. The images available on the net are of 1997 test rounds. Kunal Biswas had an image of a slightly longer APFSDS round with different colour.

Doesn't matter now but still Arjun can penetrate the roof armour that slopes onto the frontal aspect of Chinese/Pakistani tanks (A fairly easy target to hit if within 1 km) except Al-Zarrar (frontal aspect can be penetrated) and also the side turret armour and the turret ring (In war tanks will turn and Arjun might be dug in if Pakistan invades). The Al-Khalid and Type 85 will be able to penetrate the gunner's sight and the side turret. Evenly matched I say.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
Oh well. Looks bleak for the Arjun. But I am optimist and I say that round design has changed. The images available on the net are of 1997 test rounds. Kunal Biswas had an image of a slightly longer APFSDS round with different colour.

Doesn't matter now but still Arjun can penetrate the roof armour that slopes onto the frontal aspect of Chinese/Pakistani tanks (A fairly easy target to hit if within 1 km) except Al-Zarrar (frontal aspect can be penetrated) and also the side turret armour and the turret ring (In war tanks will turn and Arjun might be dug in if Pakistan invades). The Al-Khalid and Type 85 will be able to penetrate the gunner's sight and the side turret. Evenly matched I say.
Once ARJUn is inducted in large numbers , larger penetration rounds will be developed either fully here or with TOT from abroad.

the weakness behind the gunner's mainsight needs to be explained further.for that we need to know the thickness of the armor behind the sight. Just simply estimating it based on Leo design may lead to mistake for that dimensions of ARJUN and Leo should match. there was a very long hard debate on that in ARJUN vs T-90 thread.
 
Last edited:

The Last Stand

New Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2013
Messages
1,406
Likes
980
Country flag
Once ARJUn is inducted in large numbers , larger penetration rounds will be developed either fully here or with TOT from abroad.

the weakness behind the gunner's mainsight needs to be explained further.for that we need to know the thickness of the armor behind the sight. Just simply estimating it based on Leo design may lead to mistake for that dimensions of ARJUN and Leo should match. there was a very long hard debate on that in ARJUN vs T-90 thread.
I used these estimates.

Dejawolf said:
~735mm on loaders side, ~650mm on gun mantlet, ~620-910mm on gunners side, and a weakspot around the Gunners sight with ~360mm
360 mm is sad. Of course there might be more armour but still if it's true....................

I have a question for DRDO:

:yuno: design better tank?
 

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
I have a question for DRDO:

:yuno: design better tank?
Because they can't do this. Arjun is first home-made Indian tank. There was no confirm big technology transfer like in Altay, K2, Al Chalid cases. Arjun is own Indian tank, and it's first. So it can't be better, and it shown some Indian industry limits. Next home made Indian tank will be mucht better. So some flaws in Arjun are natural and shouldn't be scarey.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
New Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,122
Likes
41,041
New Longer penetrator will be available with the induction of MK2, Same round can be used by MK1..

During defexpo 2012 while talking to a DRDO / CVRDE Technician i raised this issue, He told me its the plates behind the sights are much stronger in composition, my guess is May be a titanium alloy plate..

Once ARJUn is inducted in large numbers , larger penetration rounds will be developed either fully here or with TOT from abroad.

the weakness behind the gunner's mainsight needs to be explained further.for that we need to know the thickness of the armor behind the sight. Just simply estimating it based on Leo design may lead to mistake for that dimensions of ARJUN
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
Because they can't do this. Arjun is first home-made Indian tank. There was no confirm big technology transfer like in Altay, K2, Al Chalid cases. Arjun is own Indian tank, and it's first. So it can't be better, and it shown some Indian industry limits. Next home made Indian tank will be mucht better. So some flaws in Arjun are natural and shouldn't be scarey.
Please don't jump in with this first home made idlis argument.

Comparing the obsolete T-80s which got their butts whipped in the recent civil wars Arjun is much better tank.

First or second tank it has achieved it's GSQR specs which were updated periodically by the IA.Compared to the stunted T-80 , there is no way you can write off ARJUN other than peddling spurious mischievious drawings like few retards are doing on the net.
 

ersakthivel

Brilliance
New Member
Joined
Mar 6, 2011
Messages
7,029
Likes
8,764
Country flag
I used these estimates.



360 mm is sad. Of course there might be more armour but still if it's true....................

I have a question for DRDO:

:yuno: design better tank?
~735mm on loaders side, ~650mm on gun mantlet, ~620-910mm on gunners side, and a weakspot around the Gunners sight with ~360mm
Dejawolf
If you go to ARJUn vs T-90 thread in here in DFI,

the assumptions behind those LOS were all proved dead wrong in a 90 page long argumnet,

with all these guys scooting out unable to answer any questions.

None of these assumrtion makers are professionally qualified to take any dimension from drawing, Without even taking into account perspective distortion these guys take some spurious measurements and blithely argue that their version is correct forever.
 

militarysta

New Member
Joined
Aug 20, 2011
Messages
2,110
Likes
789
New Longer penetrator will be available with the induction of MK2, Same round can be used by MK1..
Indeed we shoud wait for those round photo - and maybe cut-view. Tehn we can aasume how long is new penetrator, how build is sabot how looks L : D ratio and others.

During defexpo 2012 while talking to a DRDO / CVRDE Technician i raised this issue, He told me its the plates behind the sights are much stronger in composition, .
It's only loggicaly options. The same solution is used in Leopard-2A0-A4. Special armour after EMES-15 sight have 650mm LOS but is equal as front protection for rest turret, casue diffrent composition there. But incarase armour resistans over ~630mm RHA vs KE was impossible without incarase LOS thickness over 650mm -so in Leo-2A5 and other those place have the same LOS thickens as left turret side.
In Ajrun situation is not so comfortable couse really not enought loss thickenss - circa 450mm LOS for most optymistic estimatous.
 

Articles

Top