Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[JBH22]

sir you will very soon importing Generals and soldiers.

Why not sir we do import some of our political leaders

 

[Kunal Biswas]

This thread about Arjun lets talk only that..

 

[JBH22]

@JBH, Go through the thread see those interviews of Generals posted here only, And there are no deficiencies in performance rather better than others..

Besides, Arjun / LCA / Akash and other development is very important for the nation..

It sound all nice to have "indigenous" tank and we can accept that due to lack of knowledge it took DRDO many years to make it.

But given that this tank would atleast serve us for next 15years what will happen when countries like Russia or USA will bring in their new tanks we would still continue lag behind?

 

[Damian]

Do no forget about R&D programs for new components and design solutions. For example USA appears to be the only country right now, investing lot of time and money in to R&D for new liquidmetal alloys that appears superior in performance to currently used metal alloys. USA want even to replace depleted uranium alloys with liquidmetal alloys.

The advantage of USA is that they spent enormous quantity of money on R&D, many of designs might not be inducted in to service right now, but they have know how, and this is their strenght over rest of the world.

The question is if other countries with much smaller defense budget can afford to finance such enourmous R&D programs.

You know what Americans started to test some time ago? A new technology that permitts to use vehicle exhaust gasses to generate electrical power, and they want to test it on their tanks soon. Technology is promising because it does not require any significant changes in overall vehicle design.

This is great example how important is to finance R&D and innovations, even if they are small at the first look, in the end might have great impact.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

The advantage of USA is that they spent enormous quantity of money on R&D, many of designs might not be inducted in to service right now, but they have know how, and this is their strenght over rest of the world.

The question is if other countries with much smaller defense budget can afford to finance such enourmous R&D programs.

You know what Americans started to test some time ago? A new technology that permitts to use vehicle exhaust gasses to generate electrical power, and they want to test it on their tanks soon. Technology is promising because it does not require any significant changes in overall vehicle design.

This is great example how important is to finance R&D and innovations, even if they are small at the first look, in the end might have great impact.

Its not just Money, best infrastructure, best brains from all over the world and years and years of data along with an excellent R&D ancillary units. That is exactly why it is wrong to set US as an standard for anything because they will always be way way ahead of even europe for example no nation in Europe still has a stealth fighter inducted while US had it 30 years back, so even if you came close to them by a decade then that is a great achievement by itself and that would make it a great tank. That is exactly why Arjun is good for anything against our neighbors.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Do no forget about R&D programs for new components and design solutions. For example USA appears to be the only country right now, investing lot of time and money in to R&D for new liquidmetal alloys that appears superior in performance to currently used metal alloys. USA want even to replace depleted uranium alloys with liquidmetal alloys.

The advantage of USA is that they spent enormous quantity of money on R&D, many of designs might not be inducted in to service right now, but they have know how, and this is their strenght over rest of the world.

The question is if other countries with much smaller defense budget can afford to finance such enourmous R&D programs.

You know what Americans started to test some time ago? A new technology that permitts to use vehicle exhaust gasses to generate electrical power, and they want to test it on their tanks soon. Technology is promising because it does not require any significant changes in overall vehicle design.

This is great example how important is to finance R&D and innovations, even if they are small at the first look, in the end might have great impact.

But given that this tank would atleast serve us for next 15years what will happen when countries like Russia or USA will bring in their new tanks we would still continue lag behind?

JBH look the thread, No one is lag behind Arjun MK1 is part of evolution of National tanks, I have posted many inputs, like on new Panoramic Sight..

Please have a look, dont jump to quick conclusions..

 

[Damian]

Its not just Money, best infrastructure, best brains from all over the world and years and years of data along with an excellent R&D ancillary units. That is exactly why it is wrong to set US as an standard for anything because they will always be way way ahead of even europe for example no nation in Europe still has a stealth fighter inducted while US had it 30 years back, so even if you came close to them by a decade then that is a great achievement by itself and that would make it a great tank. That is exactly why Arjun is good for anything against our neighbors.

Agree.

Although you also probably admitt, it is interesting to see how much they invest in to new materials, who even 10-20 years ago would think to use liquidmetal alloys as eplacement for depleted uranium? Probably noone. And the scale in the investment to these new materials.

Of course many countries are investing in to nanotechnology, altough in case of USA I heard interesting rumors, that tey made some significant breaktroughs in materials, for a pure knowledge increase, it is interesting and reasonable to observe their developments.

As for Arjun, despite what some people think about my opinions about that tank, it is not a bad tank. Hopefully Mk2 will have significant improvements, what I would like to see on it is a smootbore gun, it can be even smoothbore version of currently used gun, as it would reduce costs, development time and risks and would not require any changes in design.

PS. A small sneak peak.

http://www.liquidmetal.com/technology/properties-comparison/
http://www.liquidmetal.com/applications/defense-applications/

It is really very interesting, these materials might not only improve general characteristics of vehicles protection and ammunition, but also can reduce costs of storage because vehicle structure made from liquidmetal alloy is more resistant to corrosion, thus vehicle even after spending prolonged time in big open storage areas, might not be rusted.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Agree.

Although you also probably admitt, it is interesting to see how much they invest in to new materials, who even 10-20 years ago would think to use liquidmetal alloys as eplacement for depleted uranium? Probably noone. And the scale in the investment to these new materials.

Who would think of it? The people who have the money and the goal will have to think ways of doing stuff new, that is not the surprise. India being very poor in the past has always some how caught up right from nuclear weapons to space technology.

Of course many countries are investing in to nanotechnology, altough in case of USA I heard interesting rumors, that tey made some significant breaktroughs in materials, for a pure knowledge increase, it is interesting and reasonable to observe their developments.

As for Arjun, despite what some people think about my opinions about that tank, it is not a bad tank. Hopefully Mk2 will have significant improvements, what I would like to see on it is a smootbore gun, it can be even smoothbore version of currently used gun, as it would reduce costs, development time and risks and would not require any changes in design.

Arjun Mk1 is not an excellent tank but it is a excellent platform because even USA had its fare share of duds and bad tanks which they built upon, In that way we need Arjun and it is Indias start for an tank evolution and if they gave up on a critical program then we will get no where. That is exactaly why all critism was hacked at, now the Mark-2 is way better tank and i am sure Mark-3 will address the side armor issue as well. Either way we need a tank program in the first place to do all this, Evolution means "trial and error" in time. Everything is born out of trial and error, we did not get to the I-phone before Graham bells phone because it never works that way, if people then said Graham bells phone was useless today we may never have any gadgets.

 

[Damian]

And I completely agree with this.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

And I completely agree with this.

Anyway haven't read your view of Arjun Mk-2 yet, dare i ask whats your POV of it?

 

[navkapu]

I dont know how many know this fact that India has great technology when it comes to advanced metals etc Tipu Sultan sword is made of wootz steel, which was full of carbon nanotubes.

Its just British Destroyed everything here...... but its just a matter of time it would be gained back. Things Develop one step at a time but you will see soon lots of things would converge.

Only thing that has pulled our country back is corruption. If we focus on that rest everything would fall in place.

 

[Damian]

I didn't seen finished product, I want to wait unitill I will see it in the field. There is just no sense to make any conclusions yet, although I hope there will be significant improvement in all characteristics, not only mainly in electronics.

Though the evolution is definetly desired path to take, question however it where are limits of Arjun design.

You know this is like with Americans recently concluded that the more they add to vehicle, the closer to it's limits they are, and IMHO it would be reasonable for DRDO to take a closer look on ECP upgrades that are currently in R&D phase in USA.

This is because Americans concluded that in the end they need to redesign or completely design new internal componets so the design might evolve further.

So the point is that perhaps such ECP upgrade for Arjun might be good thing.

What I mean by this is that, you know take a look at Arjun, it is a damn big tank, it means it have a lot of space inside right? So why not to redesign it's internal components so they can be smaller, lighter, in other means more space and weight efficent as well as more power efficent.

Let's take for example Arjun powerpack, the typical Diesel of this size weight approx 3 tons, but there are allready avaiable designs that are lighter, more compact (approx half of size) and provides similiar or higher power. I think that replacing current diesel with for example MB883 would free space in approx half of the currently used engine compartment, so let's think a bit more here. We can place there additional fuel tank, greatly increasing range of tank and time it will be capable to perform combat operations, or relocate there ammunition storage from hull front, completely isolating it, and for example redesigning front to place in former ammunition storage such thing like additional storage for crew, or even a special fuel tank that can perform as additional armor protection.

So the fact is that in case of big tanks, you have more capabilities to improve it when we compare it with smaller tank. But of course the question is where are these limits, what are these limits in original design, and how we can improve.

There are probably many things that can be improved in Arjun, so we will see how Mk2 will look like in standard production configuration and then we will be able to find these limits and how we can improve them.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Amazing..

 

[Damian]

Knowledge (in every meaning) is greatest weapon of all times.

So indeed, it is amazing what science can achieve.

 

[Damian]

I wonder if this type of liquid could be attached somehow to metals... perhaps placed in between metal plates?

 

[Godless-Kafir]

I didn't seen finished product, I want to wait unitill I will see it in the field. There is just no sense to make any conclusions yet, although I hope there will be significant improvement in all characteristics, not only mainly in electronics.

Though the evolution is definetly desired path to take, question however it where are limits of Arjun design.

This is because Americans concluded that in the end they need to redesign or completely design new internal componets so the design might evolve further.

You know this is like with Americans recently concluded that the more they add to vehicle, the closer to it's limits they are, and IMHO it would be reasonable for DRDO to take a closer look on ECP upgrades that are currently in R&D phase in USA.

Evolution through trial and error is the only way there is and no other way, we cant create anything out of nothing. So Arjun is the something we need and evolution does not mean the basic platform has to be the same, the whole platform can be redesigned from what scientists learn from the older design and its short comings, takeing points from the flaws of older design and building a new platform is part of evolution to bring out something better. For this the most important factor is to have an older platform to study and design up on. That is how we got to the A1A

So the point is that perhaps such ECP upgrade for Arjun might be good thing.

What I mean by this is that, you know take a look at Arjun, it is a damn big tank, it means it have a lot of space inside right? So why not to redesign it's internal components so they can be smaller, lighter, in other means more space and weight efficent as well as more power efficent.

Let's take for example Arjun powerpack, the typical Diesel of this size weight approx 3 tons, but there are allready avaiable designs that are lighter, more compact (approx half of size) and provides similiar or higher power. I think that replacing current diesel with for example MB883 would free space in approx half of the currently used engine compartment, so let's think a bit more here. We can place there additional fuel tank, greatly increasing range of tank and time it will be capable to perform combat operations, or relocate there ammunition storage from hull front, completely isolating it, and for example redesigning front to place in former ammunition storage such thing like additional storage for crew, or even a special fuel tank that can perform as additional armor protection.

So the fact is that in case of big tanks, you have more capabilities to improve it when we compare it with smaller tank. But of course the question is where are these limits, what are these limits in original design, and how we can improve.

There are probably many things that can be improved in Arjun, so we will see how Mk2 will look like in standard production configuration and then we will be able to find these limits and how we can improve them.

Who does not agree with this? They are already designing a smaller engine for it and Everyone knows all this but where do you get a smaller parts? For example: Apple wants the slimiest and smallest I-phone already..lol.. but we cant get there 1)because we still dont know how 2)No one has factories that builds those smaller electronic boards, resistors or capacitors to minimize space and newer parts and building those ancillary factories will cost tons of money and that to on a tank there are many new gadgets that need to be built for just few hundred tanks which again shots up project cost and idiots will be rambling on the cost over run of project and only US or countries that have the base can do that.

However the newer sights on the Mk-2 look better and i think it will turn out better than Mk1 in many ways.

 

[Damian]

Well I only pointed out what direction should be at least considered.

As for components, I think that cooperation is nececity these days for less technologically advanced countries.

I can give you example that currently in Poland we see the only possibility to design new AFV's only with help of our allies, and later, with ready solutions, experience we would gain, we could think about designing something more on our own.

I think this is the problem of most countries.

India is in such comfort situation that it seems that USA and Russia are trying to present each other as Indias best choice as a main ally, this gives India good position for negotations when it comes to cooperation... but then again there are some factors like ambitions that can force these potential cooperators to withdraw from whole venture.

So there is plenty of very serious questions and concerns that need to be solved.

However the newer sights on the Mk-2 look better and i think it will turn out better than Mk1 in many ways.

From what I seen to this day, electronics are strongest point of that upgrade.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

BMS from Elbit & BEL..

One of the electronic upgrade for Arjun MK-2

Photos : @sayareakd Sir..

 

[ersakthivel]

is this true arjun mk-2 ?
From the site

http://bangladeshdefence.blogspot.in/2011/01/arjun-mk-2.html

Arjun Mk-2 will get a new efficient 1500bhp engine which has been in development by DRDO in India its self, they are reports that a Indian Private industry is also working with DRDO on the engine development,

NERA (non-explosive reactive armor) will be added to Arjun Mk-2 this will give the tank additional protection against anti-tank munitions, unlike ERA, NERA will enable tank to take multiple hits anti-tank munitions, but also increase the weight of Arjun MK-2 to 60 tons from its current weight (Arjun MK-1) of 58 tons.

It is much likely that Arjun Mk-2 will also spot Air-conditioning system for the crew, which will be powered from an APU which will draw its power from the Main engine of the Tank; this will enable the tank crew to operate in higher temperature of desert heat without any discomfort to the tank crew, Arjun MK-1 already has hardened electronics that function perfectly even in the Rajasthan summer without requiring any Air-conditioning system.

More changes will take place in Arjun Mk-2, above mentioned are mostly likely changes which will take place in the new variant.

Another schematic

What is this?

 

[Damian]

You are so ecited with a photo of Arjun Mk1 and a very poor drawing... entertaining indeed.