Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Kunal Biswas]

Crossing Canal & Bridges..

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Sarvatra Bridging System

The Sarvatra truck-mounted bridging system during developmental trials by DRDO and the Indian Army. The bridge can be placed over water and land obstacles to provide 75 meters of bridge-length for battle tanks, supply convoys and troops. The system is designed to take the weight of the Arjun MBT, by far the heaviest vehicle in the Army's inventory. The Sarvatra is presently in service with the Army.

The Bridge Layer Tank (BLT) mounted on the Arjun MBT chassis.

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Using Snorkels..

 

[kaustav2001]

We would assume that NATO will actually give us their best ammo highly unlikely unless we join NATO.
We assume that DRDO or Russians wont come up with a decent ammo highly unlikely.
So that leaves the logistics issue why on earth would you not have inter-operability between all tanks for ammo , you end up with lot of duplication without any tactical advantage.

Well I would agree with this. Germany probably won't sell us something like DM-63. Other option would be the 120mm KEW A2 (perhaps the only non DU options). The Russians are already working on more powerful ammunition for their 125mm gun. We should follow a similar approach, rope in the Israeli's if required but new (more powerful) 125 mm (with long rod penetrators) developed would benefit from commonality between our T series tanks as well as FMBT. Not to mention that if we do manage to develop something similar to DM-63 125mm there will probably be nothing in the neighborhood to match that.
Just my 2 cents...

 

[Austin]

Well yes it does not takes a genius to figure out why our FMBT should have a 125 mm gun and not 120 mm gun as logistics is the key factor that would drive everything in a war , this was said so much so in the discussion on Arjun by ex Army men.

DRDO infact has developed ammo for 125 mm and is working on 600 mm penetration based on Army requirement as stated by Saraswat.

If they have a single standard caliber gun on all 3 tanks then this will greatly easy the logistics burden of maintaining 3-4 types of seperate ammo for two different types of guns. They can use these ammo interchangeably on all three tanks benefiting any new development by DRDO across all 3 types.

Even if that means two piece ammo for FMBT with Auto loader as it will likely have an autoloader to keep it under ~ 50 T then its worth the effort , Autoloader can fire 6-8 rounds and are no worse then manual loader , when you add NBC environment the autoloader is better choice.

The only reason they they developed a 120 mm is perhaps to stand out and say we need to be different and so was the heavy western type tank thats now being hotly debated and has proven to be Arjuns downfall.

I hope the best thing they do with FMBT is not repeat the same old mistake that might eventually end up to be downfall of FMBT and import of yet another tank by Army.

Its better to keep two feet tight on ground and develop what they can with available technology and then go for Mark model improvements , then to aim for sky and end up neither being here nor there.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Well yes it does not takes a genius to figure out why our FMBT should have a 125 mm gun and not 120 mm gun as logistics is the key factor that would drive everything in a war , this was said so much so in the discussion on Arjun by ex Army men.

DRDO infact has developed ammo for 125 mm and is working on 600 mm penetration based on Army requirement as stated by Saraswat.

If they have a single standard caliber gun on all 3 tanks then this will greatly easy the logistics burden of maintaining 3-4 types of seperate ammo for two different types of guns. They can use these ammo interchangeably on all three tanks benefiting any new development by DRDO across all 3 types.

Even if that means two piece ammo for FMBT with Auto loader as it will likely have an autoloader to keep it under ~ 50 T then its worth the effort , Autoloader can fire 6-8 rounds and are no worse then manual loader , when you add NBC environment the autoloader is better choice.

You are Right about 125mm and the logistic, But do Russian Ammo is good as Western Ammo ?

We are slowly moving towards western systems, It wont be long when we will have some of the best 120mm ammo..

As per Arjun MK-2 specs, Tank require to shoot 10rnd per Min..

The only reason they they developed a 120 mm is perhaps to stand out and say we need to be different and so was the heavy western type tank thats now being hotly debated and has proven to be Arjuns downfall.

Not exactly as downfall, No one said its a downfall..

120mm manufactured as per Army demands Coz from beginning Army have interested in western deign, Same specs are issued for FMBT now.

 

[Austin]

You are Right about 125mm and the logistic, But do Russian Ammo is good as Western Ammo ?

Wrong question , the right question to ask is will the best Russian and Western ammo will be available to India ? The answer is no.

If we need the best round then it has to come from DRDO or what ever best DRDO can develop , Countries East or West are very sensitive when it comes to sharing technology relating to latest Armour and Ammo and I think any one would be.

What matters is what benefits Indian Army in the next 30 years during the time FMBT is developed and deployed and how best can interoperability can be achieved between Russian and Indian built tanks.

I see 125 mm as the logical choice to achieve greater standardisation within IA tank fleet.

We are slowly moving towards western systems, It wont be long when we will have some of the best 120mm ammo..

Sure where it helps why not but where it does not help and is a burden its better to see what helps IA and not if its western or eastern.

As per Arjun MK-2 specs, Tank require to shoot 10rnd per Min..

T-90 can fire 8 rpm from its Main Gun , it is not bad considering like Humans they wont get tired and can sustain those speed , specially in NBC environment.

120mm manufactured as per Army demands Coz from beginning Army have interested in western deign, Same specs are issued for FMBT now.

Well if i were to believe it then it would be the same Army interest in western design that is also being mentioned by the Army as its key limitations in not accepting a heavy tank.

I am led to believe from recent reports coming out that Arjun program was more of DRDO led initiative based on changing GSQR and Army was not fully in the loop or at some point Army was not too happy of what came out of its GSQR which has led to this rift between DRDO and Army on Arjun program.

DRDO too is heavy weight and can have its own say and push in matters but then they too would be limited if Army stands its ground.

No where in the word R&D organisation has some much say and power on operational matters than DRDO has over its armed forces ..even US cancelled its Comanche ,Heavy Gun program after almost getting ready and no one in R&D complained why it was done since it did not meet the specs or was expensive it was cancelled , same for Russians when they cancelled the T-95 program or Mig MFI program inspite of meeting the Armed forces requirement their R&D folks didnt complain why they were not buying it and simply accepted the fact that they need to move on and work on new tanks or as directed by their respective armed forces.

In the end the R&D organisation works for the interest of Armed Forces and not the other way round , so it has to be driven by Armed forces of the country and should serve its interest.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Wrong question , the right question to ask is will the best Russian and Western ammo will be available to India ? The answer is no.

I see 125 mm as the logical choice to achieve greater standardisation within IA tank fleet.

You cant say that for sure, Even today there are many Western product are coming with TOT..

Sure where it helps why not but where it does not help and is a burden its better to see what helps IA and not if its western or eastern.

Absolutely that certainly can be seen in specs of FMBT..

T-90 can fire 8 rpm from its Main Gun , it is not bad considering like Humans they wont get tired and can sustain those speed , specially in NBC environment.

That dont matter but what matter is what army wants..

Well if i were to believe it then it would be the same Army interest in western design that is also being mentioned by the Army as its key limitations in not accepting a heavy tank.I am led to believe from recent reports coming out that Arjun program was more of DRDO led initiative based on changing GSQR and Army was not fully in the loop or at some point Army was not too happy of what came out of its GSQR which has led to this rift between DRDO and Army on Arjun program.DRDO too is heavy weight and can have its own say and push in matters but then they too would be limited if Army stands its ground.

Both were not in the loop, Huge gaps of communication from both sides..

Now as it proved too heavy, There is a talk of auto-loader with 120MM Smooth-bore to reduce wight and increase lethality..

In the end the R&D organisation works for the interest of Armed Forces and not the other way round , so it has to be driven by Armed forces of the country and should serve its interest.

Absolutely no doubt about, that is what i am saying..

 

[Austin]

Well if the Army wants in its wisdom a 120 mm Gun with autoloader then I am all for it , the Army knows what is best in its operational and logistics interest.

I just want to say one thing that DRDO should not manipulate the GSQR for its own benefit decide what is good for the army ,make a product and then shove it up Armys mouth using its clout in MOD and PMO and then cry foul when Army stands its ground.

Like other mature MIC / countries around the world , I would like to see Armed Force lead R&D/Projects to come with a product that meet its need then the other way around.

Its quite painful to hear stuff like three legged chetah or too heavy for our needs from Armed forces chief ,it talks of disconnect which is not good for both and country

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I just want to say one thing that DRDO should not manipulate the GSQR for its own benefit decide what is good for the army ,make a product and then shove it up Armys mouth using its clout in MOD and PMO and then cry foul when Army stands its ground.

Did they did something in Arjun Program ?

 

[Bhadra]

Well if the Army wants in its wisdom a 120 mm Gun with autoloader then I am all for it , the Army knows what is best in its operational and logistics interest.

I just want to say one thing that DRDO should not manipulate the GSQR for its own benefit decide what is good for the army ,make a product and then shove it up Armys mouth using its clout in MOD and PMO and then cry foul when Army stands its ground.

Like other mature MIC / countries around the world , I would like to see Armed Force lead R&D/Projects to come with a product that meet its need then the other way around.

Its quite painful to hear stuff like three legged chetah or too heavy for our needs from Armed forces chief ,it talks of disconnect which is not good for both and country

This is rubbish and anger not based on logic...

Kunal take it to chit chat thread.... Ha Ha Ha...

 

[Austin]

Did they did something in Arjun Program ?

The problem is Delhi has more faith in civilian babus and R&D folks then the Armed forces.

Take a simple example of Nuclear Detterent , the Armed forces has also been kept out of loop since the first time we went nuclear with P-1 and then Pok-2 happened the Armed forces were informed at the last moment , the Armed forces has zero contribution when it comes to working with BARC in weapons design , the yeald or type , BARC would just say this is the weapon and it works put faith in me and you plan for detterent ....in other countries like US or Russia or P-5 the armed forces would decide on reliability , yeald and would decide on the number of test needed in consultation with their Nuclear Weapons Design org , Thanks to such farce our H bomb is the biggest joke we have on the armed forces , where within the scientific circle they are not sure if it works.

You have to read the many excellent piece of work by Arun Prakash written in FORCE on how armed forces are deliberately kept out of loop on matters concerning national security while babus and DRDO run the show , when it should be other wise or armed forces being in lead.

Any ways as far as Arjun is concerned I blame both Armed forces and DRDO since they operated in their own silos ....the Armed forces kept changing GSQR ( obviously some what justified as the project took time and threat perception changed ) and then they didnt keep an eagle eye on the project which was areas like Weight , Logistics which they should have done right from inception , I think because the Army thought this was just another R&D project by DRDO and we can always import tanks.

The DRDO was too happy to work on their dream tank project with their own sweet time lines and not checking how the end product would fit in the end to end logistics chain of the army ....ofcourse if the army was too lazy not to do it intentionally or just sloppiness on its part ....DRDO as the developer and seller of the product should have got it done pro-actively after all it was army who would buy it and DRDO had big stake in making sure its a success.

DRDO too operated in its own silos and there was a disconnect between the two , finally DRDO managed to sell its product but in small numbers ( may be using its clout or combination of clout and merits ) but the end result is not what DRDO would be happy to see which is large numbers of tank and not couple of 100's.

Its a lesson for both and hope they dont repeat it with FMBT.

 

[Bhadra]

94 Major assemblies of Arjun are imported and it is a totally videshi mal right from the hulls of Leopard 2A4 to the engines to suspension to ,.. to to...

Shame on these blighters in claiming it to be indigenous...

and costs 34 crores more than T-90 !!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Any ways as far as Arjun is concerned I blame both Armed forces and DRDO since they operated in their own silos ....the Armed forces kept changing GSQR ( obviously some what justified as the project took time and threat perception changed ) and then they didnt keep an eagle eye on the project which was areas like Weight , Logistics which they should have done right from inception , I think because the Army thought this was just another R&D project by DRDO and we can always import tanks.

The DRDO was too happy to work on their dream tank project with their own sweet time lines and not checking how the end product would fit in the end to end logistics chain of the army ....ofcourse if the army was too lazy not to do it intentionally or just sloppiness on its part ....DRDO as the developer and seller of the product should have got it done pro-actively after all it was army who would buy it and DRDO had big stake in making sure its a success.

Both were not in the loop, Huge gaps of communication from both sides..

I told you so..

Both have there shares, Also strangely no one still give attention to Deign flaws in Arjun..



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94 Major assemblies of Arjun are imported and it is a totally videshi mal right from the hulls of Leopard 2A4 to the engines to suspension to ,.. to to...

Shame on these blighters in claiming it to be indigenous...

and costs 34 crores more than T-90 !!

Again baseless claims..

Arjun share same deign philosophy as LEO2A4 not same hull ? !

The tank have 60% home made and MK2 have 90% home made..

MK2 cost more coz its number are lower just like Japanese latest tanks..


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Wonder why i deleted your post..

 

[Bhadra]

Wonder why i deleted your post..

keep deleting... I am not part of any 50 pence or propaganda brigade like many others. I will not suffer any loss.

 

[Equanimity]

del>

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Again baseless claims..

Arjun share same deign philosophy as LEO2A4 not same hull ? !

The tank have 60% home made and MK2 have 90% home made..

MK2 cost more coz its number are lower just like Japanese latest tanks..

...

Those figures 90% may be true only in terms number of parts, not in value. The 90% that is homemade includes the bolts, screws, paint, etc.
The remaining 10% consists of engine, TI, chains, etc.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Those figures 90% may be true only in terms number of parts, not in value. The 90% that is homemade includes the bolts, screws, paint, etc.The remaining 10% consists of engine, TI, chains, etc.

Really ? Do you even know what you talking about or just ranting..

Or who ever told you about such disinformation is not educated enough on the subject to lecture..

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Made in India:

Transmission
Tracks
Gun
Ammo
FCS
Armour
APU

All Major parts except Engine in MK1, MK2 will have 1500hp home made..

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For the start read Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arjun_MBT

 

[pmaitra]

They are also developing an indigenous engine that will be better (100 hp more power) than the imported German engines.

Source: http://www.kitsune.addr.com/Rifts/Rifts-Pre-Rifts-Vehicles/Indian_Arjun_MkII_MBT.htm

 

[Austin]

The Mk2 will have the same German engine as Mk1 but with better transmission.

The import content is not black and white because they might be lic produced in India.

The content i can think of they would import are Engines and Tracks from Germany , ERA K-5 from Russia , TI stuff from French I think they would for french Catherine and APS which ever gets selected and AC is also planned for Arjun and which were get selected for T series wil go for Arjun.

Generally all indian imports which are manufactured in lic in India are branded as indiginous , strictly speaking its not we simply buy the lic to assemble or in better cases manufacture it here , it reduces cost and generates employment.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The Mk2 will have the same German engine as Mk1 but with better transmission.

The import content is not black and white because they might be lic produced in India.

The content i can think of they would import are Engines and Tracks from Germany , ERA K-5 from Russia , TI stuff from French I think they would for french Catherine and APS which ever gets selected and AC is also planned for Arjun and which were get selected for T series wil go for Arjun.

Generally all indian imports which are manufactured in lic in India are branded as indiginous , strictly speaking its not we simply buy the lic to assemble or in better cases manufacture it here , it reduces cost and generates employment.

MK-2 is suppose to have a 1500hp Engine, It might be with 1400hp now in Prototype..

Tracks are made in India by a Private company,

ERA is Not Russian But Made & Deigned In INDIA, better..

TI is french Li ( Any link )

Arjun Don't use Catherine

Some of things are LI in private..

 

[Austin]

No the engine will be the same as Mk1 only it has better transmission , check Ajai Shukla write up on Mk2 , these engines are turbocharged for 1500 hp but essentially are 1400 hp engines.

The tiles are K-5 from Russia at a later stage Indian tiles will be used check Frontline ( Desert Ferrari ) for Arjun Mk2 development CVRDE chief mentioned so.

The FORCE articles says higher width tracks Tracks are from Germany.

They have mentioned that by and large the import content for Mk2 will be similar to Mk1 , if memory serves me right the import content is 45 % by cost and it will be the same for Mk2 perhaps it may rise due to additional stuff like APS , AC but by and large it will be the same.

The cost itself will rise because Arjun Mk2 is projected to cost around 37 crores

For TI i am not sure we were using Lic built TI for Mk1 from Dutch/BEL iirc but the new Arjun Mk2 will have CITV so i think it will be Catherine could be something else as well.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No the engine will be the same as Mk1 only it has better transmission , check Ajai Shukla write up on Mk2 , these engines are turbocharged for 1500 hp but essentially are 1400 hp engines.

The tiles are K-5 from Russia at a later stage Indian tiles will be used check Frontline ( Desert Ferrari ) for Arjun Mk2 development CVRDE chief mentioned so.

The FORCE articles says higher width tracks Tracks are from Germany.

They have mentioned that by and large the import content for Mk2 will be similar to Mk1 , if memory serves me right the import content is 45 % by cost and it will be the same for Mk2 perhaps it may rise due to additional stuff like APS , AC but by and large it will be the same.

The cost itself will rise because Arjun Mk2 is projected to cost around 37 crores

For TI i am not sure we were using Lic built TI for Mk1 from Dutch/BEL iirc but the new Arjun Mk2 will have CITV so i think it will be Catherine could be something else as well.

There is a huge difference between a 1500hp turbo charge and 1400hp in terms of preform ace..

The ERA used on Russian Tank and Indian are different in deign and shape and size, Russian dont produce such Heavy ERA, Desert Farriari is too old, There was Interview on A.S`s blog where it was mentioned by a DRDO official that they are deigning and working on an Indian heavy ERA ( I mentioned this long time ago )

Force` author also said Arjun cannot go work in most places in Rajasthan and Punjab coz of natural obstical, I have posted the link of Arjun Tank tracks which are made by a Indian company, cannot find the link now but posted in this thread only..

DRDO chief mentioned about 90% Made in India about MK-2 than what was on MK-1 60%..

Are you sure it was Night Vision used in Arjun CITV or thermal ?, Thermal used for Driver & Gunner..