Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

methos

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M1A1s from the U.S. Marines and Leopard 2s have a max. meassure range of 9,990 m (or 10 km +/- 10 m) for their laser range finders, U.S. Army M1s (at least the earlier ones) have got a maximum range of "only" 7,990 m (or 8 km +/- 10 m).
Current LRF got a maximum range of 20 to 40 km (but on tanks and IFVs the range is always limited by the FCS).

LP17D (range 20 km)
MOLEM (range 40 km, for Fennek artillery observer and other vehicles)
LDM38(range 20 km, has been intergrated in PUMA)
LRF for M1(range 10 km for Marine M1s)
ELRF(range 40 km)

DLEM (family of LRF for small an medium weapons, range 1,500 - 5,200 m)
ELEM (up to 10 km)
 
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Damian

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Yeah.

All M1's currently in active service (M1A1AIM, M1A1SA, M1A1FEP and M1A2SEP), got new LRF, it is ELRF used, so all of them got max ~40km range with FCS locked range for conventional munitions is 4,000m.
 

methos

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... and why did I link a file from 2006 about a Zeiss LRF with 10 km max range for Marine M1s? Did they decide to introduce a new LRF after they just got some newer ones in the 2000s? In case of the ELRF with 40 km range, the "ELRF" is not the product name, the name is "15 pps ELRF", Eye-safe laser rangefinder (ELRFs) can be made with the same range as normal one, just because one can achieve a range of 40 km not all are able to do so.

http://articles.janes.com/articles/...iss-Optronics-ELRF-for-M1-Abrams-Germany.html
 
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Damian

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Good question. As far as I know, USMC M1A1's have some electronic package differences than US Army and ARNG. Besides this M1A2SEP is intended to be with all the best things installed, while M1A1SA and M1A1FEP are cheaper thus some upgrades are not installed or cheaper analogs were used.

The problem is that besides USMC, US Army didn't say what LRF and with what capabilities was installed on their tanks. It might be the same and if yes, then I made mistake, or it might be completely something else. Besides this, we know that USMC use Zeiss LRF, however US Army seems to not say what companys LRF they use currently as far as I know.

You gave me an interesting thing to make a research. :)

PS. It seems that at least in M1A2SEP Nd:Yag LRF is not used, but new one based on Erbium, so it is probably not Zeiss design.
 
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Godless-Kafir

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(better enlarge image to read the texts)

I hope this will make the problem of the Arjun turret layout more clear. The armour placement is inherited from Soviet tanks (e.g. from T-72 and T-90), while the turret design is copied from Western tanks (look turret, with large overhang and big crew comparment). While the protection would be not bad if the Arjun would use a Soviet/Russian concept turret, the de facto used Western turret layout creates large danger zones, more than 40% of all angles. The ammo storage (which is based on pictures not isolated from the crew comparment) can be hit form all angles greater than 10°.
Useing ERA their solves the problem, also no one know what is the cavity inside that area. The armor is still a secret and i need to go into that.
 

Damian

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Useing ERA their solves the problem,
Only partially, because ERA effectiveness also greatly depends on what is behind ERA. Besides this on any known drawing or graphic of Arjun Mk2, there is no ERA placed over that area which suggests...

also no one know what is the cavity inside that area.
...that this cavity as You call it are simple storage boxes. Why? Because storage boxes are very thin, and they can't support ERA, on known graphics there are also no frames that could be used to support ERA, but without these frames, installation of ERA on thin bulkheads of storage boxes might be immposible. For example on M1 tanks, to install M32 ARAT-2 ERA on turret sides, additional mounting points for frames were needed to be welded, so frame can be installed and later ERA attached to it. This is because even if M1 have full turret sides lenght protected by thick composite armor, over this composite armor there are placed storage boxes that are very delicate, so it is not possible to just weld mointing points for ERA to them, and it seems that nobody really want to deattache these boxes only to instal ERA in their place. So as You can see, this problem is not so easy to solve as it might look.

The armor is still a secret and i need to go into that.
Armor composition is allways a secret, however it's placement is not. In fact it is very easy to say where composite armor is installed by just searching the weld lines over turret roof, these weld lines indicates where cover plates for composite armor cavity were welded and thus giving us precise location of composite armor cavity placement + allow us if we can, to messure composite armor thickness.

This is not some super science You know.
 
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Godless-Kafir

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1) You taking something obvious as something important, only because satelaties trajectories are known does not mean anything.
Satellites dont have any trajectory, they have an orbit. There is not one satellite but dozens of US spy satellites orbiting earth they have USAF, CIA and other satellites all working independently and have very less window of dark area, to know when they are under surveillance takes some know how.


2) I do not compare equipment based on where it is made, but on it's characteristics... only "techno patriots" from some countries that only just started to develop weapon systems of certain type, think that they allready achieved level of countries and designers that have long tradition and huge experience in development... maybe some more realism eh? It is not said to be offensive, it is just realism. For example I know as my countrymen that we can develop new MBT, why not, we have scientists, industry, but general consensus among people here is that this first development will not be as good as some other countries, it will most probably be full of flaws, that will not nececary be "repairable", and completely new design will be needed. It is realistic thinking, not a wishfull thinking to be a military and technological superpower in a short time period. Critcism of own design is good, it inspires debate, seek for new routes, new design solutions.
Although some of the points you have been raising recently are legitimate your earlier tirades where very juvenile. It is only now you have begun to concentrate on the dark areas, which is actually an welcome relief. The tank armor is up for upgrades and it will have added protection of ERA. They need to produce atleast 500 tanks to justify the project cost, If you saw the movie Pentagon Wars you will see how inferior the Bradley fighting vehicle was. This is not the case only with India. Albeit the Arjun is still a good tank, addition of ERA and better sights will make it one of the best tanks in Asia, which is good enough against China and Pakistan.



? It seems I once again hit Your weak point... oh come on, stop this silly being offended thing only because of national ambitions. Everyone knowns that Red Flag and other excercices from US perspective are done only to see what other are capable to do. This is why scenarios are staged, one side for example can't use all it's assetts, and US goal isn't to win these excercices at all, really. As I said, be more realistic, and friendly to other nations also. Not each critic is an enemy, sometimes constructive criticism is a good thing. ;)
Patriotic chest thumping is different from simply missing the facts based, you have no facts on a lot of your assertions. You just say stuff out of your hat with some much confidence but with no proof. Such things annoy me even if it is done once.

The Americans have been on Red flag for almost a decade now, so every time they join us they are learning and fooling us and every time the IAF is dumb enough not to know what they are up to? If you know it, why do you think one of the largest and up in coming airforces wont know? It has been proved that USAF 4th gen fighters where not an match for IAFs Su-30MKI, so they bought in the Raptor F-22 against it for one on one, then they did a big chest thump on how much better they are. The USAF pilots itself admitted the IAF was as good and better in some ways in a leaked video of theirs pilots.

This is OT lets stick to the topic.


From what You provided it seems that Arjun stabilization seems to be comparable to other similiar systems. But accuracy depends on many more factors, for exampl if gun and sights are properly boresighted, if crew is properly trained, if they have proper ammo and ammo ballistic data in FCS computer etc.

So really, screwing something up intentionally or not to prove some point is easy in that case.
The Arjuns accuracy has been shown to be atleast better than T-90, so many of the armies requests like separate sights for commander will be inducted in Mark-2.
 

sayareakd

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@damian it wont take them much time to put ERA they r not putting it because they are confident of kanchan armor, plus ERA have been put to improved T72.
 

Damian

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Although some of the points you have been raising recently are legitimate your earlier tirades where very juvenile. It is only now you have begun to concentrate on the dark areas, which is actually an welcome relief. The tank armor is up for upgrades and it will have added protection of ERA. They need to produce atleast 500 tanks to justify the project cost, If you saw the movie Pentagon Wars you will see how inferior the Bradley fighting vehicle was. This is not the case only with India. Albeit the Arjun is still a good tank, addition of ERA and better sights will make it one of the best tanks in Asia, which is good enough against China and Pakistan.
1) Ask where this ERA will be placed, because only a fact that ERA is placed somewhere does not mean much.

2) Pentagon Wars is a movie made by an idiot that did not understand anything from XM2 R&D program, and is as far from reality as we are from Mars. XM2 or M2 Bradley was really great IFV when it was fielded, not inferior to any other IFV made back then... the only thing from start I would to with it would be a bit different hull and turret design, longer hull and some other minor changes. Overall it was best NATO IFV in 1980's.

The Arjuns accuracy has been shown to be atleast better than T-90, so many of the armies requests like separate sights for commander will be inducted in Mark-2.
We don't know if it is indeed better, especially after a single test that was more a contest than a real test. As for panoramic sight for TC, Arjun allready have it, it is just a simple day PERI, not a thermal one.

@damian it wont take them much time to put ERA they r not putting it because they are confident of kanchan armor, plus ERA have been put to improved T72.
Sure, ok, they can be confident with Kanchan armor, but at the discussed places on turret where I and Methos marked there is no Kanchan armor, but simple and thin RHA armor covered by storage boxes.
 

p2prada

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Most of these air exercises are a farce. All scripted with very tough ROE.

Red Flag isn't 1v1. The American "red" side has 2 or 3 squadrons of F-15s while the "blue" side have double the number of aircraft, both air to air configured and strike configured. There are a million rules on how aircraft are engaged. It is like a video game rather than an actual battle.

Other smaller exercises are also quite similar, scripted. We have won a few, lost a few. It is something like sports which has rules.

Only DACT within the air force units comes closest to real conditions along with many of our own large military exercises. That's what matters.

Btw, the Air Force or Army performance in foreign countries is not a measure of how good DRDO is. All the stuff used in exercises to date are mostly imported equipment anyway. The professional ethics of the IAF and the IA are entirely unnecessary in a discussion comparing two tanks.
 

Kunal Biswas

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There are plenty of tanks where plenty of parts where composite armor is not used, Including T-90S & T-80..

Arjun turret need full re-deigning and T-90S need much needed Heavy ERA on sides as well as Chassis sides..
 

p2prada

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Arjun turret need full re-deigning and T-90S need much needed Heavy ERA on sides as well as Chassis sides..
Due to our own laws, the T-90S upgrade will be handed over to the Russians rather than the Ukranians. Either way we will see the Knife(perhaps) or the Relikt(quite possible).

Personally I don't see a future for Arjun no matter how well it is upgraded compared to T-90. However I hope CVRDE will take it's design experience over to the FMBT which is coming for sure.
 

sayareakd

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@ Damian & P2p arjun is made for tanks to tanks war, that is why it has major major protection on the front side. As told by the developer. My earlier post was as told by developer. He also said that ERA can be added but it is only going to add weight, tank is good without it.
 

Kunal Biswas

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There is no official FMBT specs are out, As for Arjun MK3, Chief has given green light..

I don't see FMBT has a future in IA armored core, Arjun will continue to evolve into better deign..

------------------

T-90S upgrade official is all about APU & AC, there are no word about new generation era, Personally i believe it should have ERA on weak spots..
 

ice berg

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@ Damian & P2p arjun is made for tanks to tanks war, that is why it has major major protection on the front side. As told by the developer. My earlier post was as told by developer. He also said that ERA can be added but it is only going to add weight, tank is good without it.
And in tank to tank war, the enemy will only come head on knowing your weaknesses? I rest my case. :cool2:
 

p2prada

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The FMBT is coming. Specs will be finalized by the year end as told by DRDO chief. Work on the new engine is on the drawing board too, we recently had reports of a 2000HP engine. The new development has nothing to do with Arjun.

As for whether information is out or not, it won't matter to DRDO or the Army. When the time comes they will reveal it. For eg: Armata program may have already progressed a lot, riding on the success of the Obj 195, but we don't have any information either. That does not mean it does not exist.

Arjun Mk3 is not a major upgrade. That project will just remove all the "c h i n k s" that DRDO has mentioned Mk2 will have. You can call it a more complete form of the Mk2.

I am guessing this is more of a ploy by DRDO to release select versions so the Army buys them in batches while allowing DRDO to break even. 124 for Mk1, 124 for Mk2, another 124 for Mk2 and another 124-248 for Mk3. Roughly 496 minimum or 620 at max. DRDO is expecting 350 more tanks to be ordered over the 248 already ordered, up above the 250 that was estimated earlier.

The T-90 APU and AC may be false info or merely incomplete info. We will know in time.

@Sayare

All tanks without urban upgrades are meant to beat tanks. Urban upgrades makes it more versatile, that's all. Arjun is not completely protected for tank to tank duels as compared to other tanks including T-90. That's the point Methos and Damian are trying to convey.
 
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pmaitra

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And in tank to tank war, the enemy will only come head on knowing your weaknesses? I rest my case. :cool2:
I don't see any other possibilities in Thar. It will in all likelihood be head to head confrontation. The Indian Army probably knows what it is asking for, and why.

Let me know if I am missing something.
 

Godless-Kafir

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Most of these air exercises are a farce. All scripted with very tough ROE.

Red Flag isn't 1v1. The American "red" side has 2 or 3 squadrons of F-15s while the "blue" side have double the number of aircraft, both air to air configured and strike configured. There are a million rules on how aircraft are engaged. It is like a video game rather than an actual battle.

Other smaller exercises are also quite similar, scripted. We have won a few, lost a few. It is something like sports which has rules.

Only DACT within the air force units comes closest to real conditions along with many of our own large military exercises. That's what matters.

Btw, the Air Force or Army performance in foreign countries is not a measure of how good DRDO is. All the stuff used in exercises to date are mostly imported equipment anyway. The professional ethics of the IAF and the IA are entirely unnecessary in a discussion comparing two tanks.
Can someone delete this OT crap, its is complete OT and does not even pertain to sub discussions. I brought this up only as an example not an whole topic.
 

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