Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Kunal Biswas]

When? That latest test was obviously fishy thing when we consider all that political hype around Arjun.

If someone would be fair here then tests should be performed with independent observers besides both competing sides supporters.

Further they stick with rifled gun, I do not know why, when in anti armor role it is obsolete, and in mutlipurpose role smoothbore guns offer better than HESH ammunition.

And there is something more, Ukraine try to propose India their own upgrade for T-90S based on T-84M Oplot, if India would adopt this upgrade then T-90S will be clearly superior... on the other hand India can also adopt T-90MS with the same effect.

Previous test were fishy if you have read abt black box disabled..

Latest test where T-90S was out preform in performance is true..


Rifled gun preformed well, there are new generation ammo too, we will see soon what are they though smooth-bore is a good option..

Regarding anti-Armour is obsolete is dead wrong, US wars and Russian wars are not same as Indian wars..



If applied its good, What is important to enhance the capability more of both tanks..

Regarding T-90MS, it have deign flaw, better update T-90S..

 

[Damian]

Previous test were fishy if you have read abt black box disabled..

Latest test where T-90S was out preform in performance is true..

I have my doubts about latest tests, mainly because Arjun case is purely political and prestige problem + the fact that DRDO is state owned.

Rifled gun preformed well, there are new generation ammo too, we will see soon what are they though smooth-bore is a good option..

Regarding anti-Armour is obsolete is dead wrong, US wars and Russian wars are not same as Indian wars..

Yeah sure, the problem is that Russians and co. will design and export more and more heavy ERA in future, hey Indias enemys allready use heavy ERA on allmost all their tanks. So actually US approach to the problem of ammunition designed to defeat heavy ERA slowly will become approach for whole world.

If applied its good, What is important to enhance the capability more of both tanks..

Regarding T-90MS, it have deign flaw, better update T-90S..

Sure, but currently we have here rather a hate contest against T-90 than a merithoric discussion, most people tend to look at this by mentioned political, prestige and "patriotic" reasons, not vehicles design.

 

[Virendra]

Sure, but currently we have here rather a hate contest against T-90 than a merithoric discussion, most people tend to look at this by mentioned political, prestige and "patriotic" reasons, not vehicles design.

Our people aren't against T90 as such. We recognize the Russian metal in military hardware.
Bone of contention is that Indigenous development of technology and military hardware is still at the backseat. This is exactly where the real politics is. Money, corruption, kickbacks, brokerages ... list goes on.
We don't aim to be just another developing country of the so called third world. Looking ahead, the current procurement pattern doesn't fit the aims, the needs and hence the frustration in common populace.

Regards,
Virendra

 

[Damian]

Our people aren't against T90 as such. We recognize the Russian metal in military hardware.
Bone of contention is that Indigenous development of technology and military hardware is still at the backseat. This is exactly where the real politics is. Money, corruption, kickbacks, brokerages ... list goes on.
We don't aim to be just another developing country of the so called third world. Looking ahead, the current procurement pattern doesn't fit the aims, the needs and hence the frustration in common populace.

Sure it is understanable, but there is no need to have all weapons as indigenous, many so called first world countries also do not develop tanks or aircrafts.

It might be issue of mentality, but in this regard Poland is not very different to India when it comes to weapons development problems, however as far as I can tell, our people are frustrated much because of that. General consensus is that if our industry can't develop something or it is not developed on time or with needed quality, then screw this, buy something from someone, and it's not a bad thing.

Sure we could start development of our own fighter but or it would be waste of money or the final effect won't be good, in the end it was cheaper to buy new F-16's from US, same goes with tanks, we had our own MBT programs, in the end Leopard 2A4 tanks from Germany stocks were choosen, however eventually it might be possible that new indigenous MBT program might start, preliminary technical and tactical objectives for a new tank were allready presented under codename "Wilk" (Wolf), however nobody expects that program will start before 2020, and there are doubts about how it could end and if it is not better to just buy new tanks from someone. And belive me, preliminary technical and tactical objectives for our new tank are even more ambitious than these for Arjun. In fact Wolf in many aspects seems to be closer to 4th generation MBT's than 3rd generation when it comes to frontal armor protection or firepower... some might even think that is is overambitious and unrealistic.

So really, there is no special need to make everything on our own, sometimes cheaper and more cost effective solution is to buy something off the shelf.

 

[john70]

Our people aren't against T90 as such. We recognize the Russian metal in military hardware.
Bone of contention is that Indigenous development of technology and military hardware is still at the backseat. This is exactly where the real politics is. Money, corruption, kickbacks, brokerages ... list goes on.
We don't aim to be just another developing country of the so called third world. Looking ahead, the current procurement pattern doesn't fit the aims, the needs and hence the frustration in common populace.

Regards,
Virendra

You are absolutely right in this.

Yet the points raised by Damian are valid :
1. Smooth bore gun
2. New ammunition
3. Armour

This all could have changed over and above th electronics.
Arjun mk 2 competing and being better than T90 --- Label should not have been enough, rather realistic challenge to threats nearby would have been better in planning the changes in arjun mk2

 

[Damian]

Ok to give You example of something, here are our "Wilk" MBT program demands:

1) Crew 3 to 4 soldiers,
2) High pressure, high calliber gun (120mm or higher),
3) Ammunition capable to perforate 1,000mm of RHA (yeah 1,000mm),
4) Line of Sight Fire 4,000m,
5) Ballistic protection over front capable to completely protect against ammunition for 120mm and 125mm guns,
6) Side armor of hull and turret completely protected against RPG's,
7) Minimum front armor thickness 1,000-1,200 mm RHA (I think it is not thickness but rather protection values),
8) Addon armor capable,
9) APU + modern electronics,
10) Range : roads 600km, off roads 300km,
11) Protection against 12kg TNT explosion under hull or track,
12) Protection against IED weighting 20-30kg.

Some people say that this project is overambitious and even such countries like US would not be capable to design such tank with it's overall weight not exceeding 65 tons (I doubt that it would not even exceed 100 tons in such case).

And this greatly shows that not allways indigenous development might be cost effective.

 

[sayareakd]

@ Damian you have no idea how strong russian arms lobby is in India, they have deep pocket and no death of supporters in armed forces for all the years of its business relations. In this regards you have to keep in mind what if Arjun tank had failed comparative trials, all those people and our media ( some of it on payrole) would have shouted at the top of their voices.
They are not doing it is prima facie proved what has happen in trials.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

When? That latest test was obviously fishy thing when we consider all that political hype around Arjun. I explained it in another thread and taking in to consideration Arjun design, I highly doubt that it would be better than any tank made in a country with bigger experience in AFV's designing.

If someone would be fair here then tests should be performed with independent observers besides both competing sides supporters.

What bothers me is from what we know, designers didn't worked out basic weaknesses in Arjun design, like turret side armor, main sight placement, size of gun mantle, things that in XXI century should not be presented on 3rd generation MBT. Instead they focused on adding all these electronic gizmos that will not nececary help, for example that radar thing, placed on turret front armor prevents any armor upgrade there and is placed in the most exposed to enemy fire place. If this is how it would be on production vehicle then... I don't even know what to think about it.

Further they stick with rifled gun, I do not know why, when in anti armor role it is obsolete, and in mutlipurpose role smoothbore guns offer better than HESH ammunition.

And there is something more, Ukraine try to propose India their own upgrade for T-90S based on T-84M Oplot, if India would adopt this upgrade then T-90S will be clearly superior... on the other hand India can also adopt T-90MS with the same effect.

However Ukraine that desperatly needs export orders for T-84M, can offer this very good and dangerous tank to Pakistan... with current gun and ammunition both Arjun and T-90S allready will have problems with Pakistani T-80UD's. As it was discussed earlier, that problem could have been solved long time ago, if someone would for example thing to buy licence for Israeli smoothbore gun and buy better APFSDS ammunition from Israel or NATO (IRCC DM53 or DM63 can be buyed from Germany or KEW-A1 and KEW-A2 from US, KEW-A2 seems to be tungsten analog to M829A2 that is designd to defeat composite armors with heavy ERA, DM53/63 can also do that).

And currently views aren't that good, because not only Pakistani T-80UD's have heavy ERA (still based on 4S22 Kontakt-5 as it seems), but also Chinese tanks and Pakistani Al Khalids have heavy ERA. Both T-90S and Arjun will not be capable to defeat such protection with one shot. Also T-90S is better protected than Arjun when we consider vehicle size and weight, placement, exposure and size of weak zones. This makes situation problematic.

Russians and Ukrainians do not offer very long rods for their APFSDS ammunition and very long rods won't nececary fits in to currently used autoloaders, while Arjun in theory can use very long rods, nobody manufacture such APFSDS ammunition for rifled guns, while it is possible to place such rod in different sabot so it can be effectively fired from a rifled gun, it seems that nobody bothered to do that, or Indian decision makers didn't make any real order for such ammunition, while IMI only company that was considering to make such ammunition for India, was blacklisted.

So while everyone is happy because Arjun Mk2 will be tested, details shows that situation is not nececary bright.

Thats old news, Arjun has better suspension and gun control compared to T-90 so its hit probability is better. All the short comeings of the Mk-1 will be rectified in Mk-2, the issue with smooth bore gun is not clear but with NERA or ERA armour. It will be better than some western tanks. The question of gun we will leave it for now.

Here is a report on arjun out gunning T-90. I know you cant digest it but it is true.
Russia's T-90 vs India's Arjun


Also read this thread..you may get an idea.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?p=1262034

 

[p2prada]

Previous test were fishy if you have read abt black box disabled..

Actually that black box incident was a pie in DRDO's face. After the failure in winter trials, the army pointed out there were engine problems. DRDO pointed out that there was no engine problems and that there was sabotage. So, DRDO announced installation of a black box so the Army does not "tamper" with the engine again.

However it turns out the Army had nothing to do with the failure. Turns out the transmission had new ball bearings and the manufacturer never informed DRDO about it. So, it was actually the transmission that failed.

Quite like how NAL Saras crashed because the manufacturer never informed that there was a new ignition sequence for the engine during mid flight.

Pie in DRDO's face according to what I was informed.

 

[p2prada]

Some people say that this project is overambitious and even such countries like US would not be capable to design such tank with it's overall weight not exceeding 65 tons (I doubt that it would not even exceed 100 tons in such case).

And this greatly shows that not allways indigenous development might be cost effective.

Object 195 possibly exceeds it and weighs 55 tons.

 

[sayareakd]

we have been informed otherwise.

 

[Damian]

@ Damian you have no idea how strong russian arms lobby is in India, they have deep pocket and no death of supporters in armed forces for all the years of its business relations. In this regards you have to keep in mind what if Arjun tank had failed comparative trials, all those people and our media ( some of it on payrole) would have shouted at the top of their voices.
They are not doing it is prima facie proved what has happen in trials.

That lobby would scream even more if Arjun would really win. So excuse me, I have my doubts.

Thats old news, Arjun has better suspension and gun control compared to T-90 so its hit probability is better.

Yes, Arjun suspension is definetly better, as for fire control, even in Soviet times, precision of FCS in top line Soviet MBT's like T-64B, T-80B and T-80U was not worser than NATO MBT's FCS. So I doubt that Arjun is really better in this.

ll the short comeings of the Mk-1 will be rectified in Mk-2,

Optimistic You know, seeing that graphic I have my doubts.

the issue with smooth bore gun is not clear but with NERA or ERA armour. It will be better than some western tanks. The question of gun we will leave it for now.

Arjun as I said some time ago have this good situation that rearming it from rifled to smoohtbore gun should be relatively simple and cheap.

As for NERA and ERA, from what I seen on graphic it have only ERA, as for NERA, we should remember that NERA is only effective when it's thickness is rather big. This means that it cannot be applied to tank in any other form than bulky and heavy armor modules, or the Kanchan armor must be replaced by NERA, and Kanchan being a composite armor and what we know about composite armors and possibility that Kanchan is based somewhat on Burlington armor, makes Kanchan itself a NERA like protection.

So IMHO there will not be any NERA addons, only ERA.

Here is a report on arjun out gunning T-90. I know you cant digest it but it is true.
Russia's T-90 vs India's Arjun


Also read this thread..you may get an idea.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/vie....php?p=1262034

You might belive it but, all modern tanks armed with smoothbore guns in any competition or test, were not outgunned by rifled gun armed tanks, there is also no real proof that modern smoothbore gun should be less accurate than rifled gun.

Object 195 possibly exceeds it and weighs 55 tons.

That's interesting P2P, still it should weight around 60 tons then, with unmanned turret more weight would mean that beast have incredible armor protection!

 

[sayareakd]

we are also informed that due to that blackbox, desi came out in flying colors in the trial, despite having best tank crews from all of IA to compete against desi maal.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

@ Damian you have no idea how strong russian arms lobby is in India, they have deep pocket and no death of supporters in armed forces for all the years of its business relations. In this regards you have to keep in mind what if Arjun tank had failed comparative trials, all those people and our media ( some of it on payrole) would have shouted at the top of their voices.
They are not doing it is prima facie proved what has happen in trials.

Some youngsters here are impressed by his google knowledge but he really does not get all the problems and bureaucracy in IA and MOD, which are actually the biggest hurdles for indigenous arms. Why cant we make a Howitzer when we made a gun for Arjun? Because buying stuff from outside comes with kick backs. We bought the left hand drive Tatra and if that is not proof of screw ups in MOD i dont know what is. Arjun really is a great tank, yes it has bugs but when the AMX-56 was launched in France we all know how many problems it had. What IA and Indian in general dont get is that with Arms manafacturing is not like buying a Toyota car where everything comes in a well developed package.

The Chinese pretty much induct engines and radar which dont even work, they know that it takes time to run and mature as a technology. We some how dont get that bit.

The mark-2 will be good and i am not sure with the smooth bore gun? I think IA sees the T-90 haveing smooth bore and if Arjun also has Smooth bore it would just be another T-90 replacement so they want something diffrent in the Arjuns gun so they may stick with the Rifled bore for long range accuracy to supplement T-90s short comeings.

 

[Rahul Singh]

When? That latest test was obviously fishy thing when we consider all that political hype around Arjun. I explained it in another thread and taking in to consideration Arjun design, I highly doubt that it would be better than any tank made in a country with bigger experience in AFV's designing.

If someone would be fair here then tests should be performed with independent observers besides both competing sides supporters.

Oh it starts all over again. You don't trust these reports but we do. And i don't know how many times it has been said that latest competitive tests were carried out in presence of neutral MBT experts ; the Israelis. While there can be numerous parameters on which two different designs can be compared it is always what user had asked from designers is what matters. While Arjun can have many design flaws like flat faced turret sides, less Armour on side, gun but the fact remains that these things can be bettered in BLOCK phases if and only if user asks for it. So far they have not so no.

 

[Damian]

Some youngsters here are impressed by his google knowledge

I use book for your information.

Arjun really is a great tank, yes it has bugs but when the AMX-56 was launched in France we all know how many problems it had.

You know, French had only problems with software, not vehicle itself. It was just highly computerized and some sensors were oversensitive disabling vehicle when for example completely unharmfull for engine quantity of dust get inside. After making sensors less sensitive everything was fine... but this actually shows that too much electronics might not be a good idea.

The mark-2 will be good and i am not sure with the smooth bore gun? I think IA sees the T-90 haveing smooth bore and if Arjun also has Smooth bore it would just be another T-90 replacement so they want something diffrent in the Arjuns gun so they may stick with the Rifled bore for long range accuracy to supplement T-90s short comeings.

I completely do not understand this strange "logic". Rifled gun is a past, period, why stick with something that have no future, that is incompatibile with ammunition manufactured world wide, that have short service life.

More, as I said, in all tests and competition, rifled gun armed tanks were actually outgunned by smoothbore gun armed tanks. Even during tests for US Army where different rifled guns and smoothbore guns were tested, conclusion was that German Rh-120 smoothbore gun was most accurate and had best penetration values.

During trails in Greece Challenger 2 with very modern FCS was outgunned by smoothbore armed tanks, even after ammunition change it's performance was not better.

Also firing conventional ammunition further than 4,000m is a waste of ammunition.

Oh it starts all over again. You don't trust these reports but we do. And i don't know how many times it has been said that latest competitive tests were carried out in presence of neutral MBT experts ; the Israelis. While there can be numerous parameters on which two different designs can be compared it is always what user had asked from designers is what matters. While Arjun can have many design flaws like flat faced turret sides, less Armour on side, gun but the fact remains that these things can be bettered in BLOCK phases if and only if user asks for it. So far they have not so no.

Well would be nice to know opinion of Israelis then.

As for Block upgrades, sure yeah, Americans had such approach, but the question is how adaptive is the basic design. M1 was designed with Block upgrades in mind, well in fact Block I or M1 was never seen as something more than an interim design before Block II or M1A1/M1A2 was fielded, and the long term solution was planned Block III but the question is, if Arjun was ever designed with Block upgrades in mind.

And to explain it even better, Block upgrades means that each Block is in fact new vehicle. M1 Block I is in it's structure very different to M1A1/M1A2 Block II and the Block III was even more different tanks.

Looking at Arjun Mk1 and Mk2 I do not see special differences, rather the same structure with new things attached to it.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

That lobby would scream even more if Arjun would really win. So excuse me, I have my doubts.

How would you know better than us? Reading crud on the net? Have you ever been to an Aero India or Defence expo and talked with the scientists and workers in DRDO? You have no clue, you should keep quite on these issues and not bring in your teenage level of confidence.

Yes, Arjun suspension is definetly better, as for fire control, even in Soviet times, precision of FCS in top line Soviet MBT's like T-64B, T-80B and T-80U was not worser than NATO MBT's FCS. So I doubt that Arjun is really better in this.

The computrised fire control is a generation ahead of these tanks you mentioned, with the added support of the suspension and rifiled bore it can hit targets longer and with better accuracy. Lets not get into the rifieled bore vs smooth bore again. The Arjuns accuracy is excellent and the tests where witnessed by Army personal who did not object.

Optimistic You know, seeing that graphic I have my doubts.
Arjun as I said some time ago have this good situation that rearming it from rifled to smoohtbore gun should be relatively simple and cheap.

I am not sure of the gun, i think haveing the smooth bore would mean haveing the same stuff as T-90 perhaps that is the reason they want Rifiled gun, we are not a Nato country and we dont need to beleieve everything NATO does is the best. In joint exercises with USAF our IAF proved its metal and many a times USAF was take aback. As one Joint Army officer in said while training with Indian Army "everything they do is opposite to what we do but funny thin is it is just as effective"! This itself shows we have our ways which are different but equally effective.

As for NERA and ERA, from what I seen on graphic it have only ERA, as for NERA, we should remember that NERA is only effective when it's thickness is rather big. This means that it cannot be applied to tank in any other form than bulky and heavy armor modules, or the Kanchan armor must be replaced by NERA, and Kanchan being a composite armor and what we know about composite armors and possibility that Kanchan is based somewhat on Burlington armor, makes Kanchan itself a NERA like protection.So IMHO there will not be any NERA addons, only ERA.

Ya i am not sure what that armour is on that animation, it looked pretty thick so i thought it many be a NERA and NERA is also under R&D in DRDO, may be if they got things right i thought they may induct the local NERA. Even if it is ERA it is not bad, infantry can stay behind the tank in any incursion to avoid casualty.

You might belive it but, all modern tanks armed with smoothbore guns in any competition or test, were not outgunned by rifled gun armed tanks, there is also no real proof that modern smoothbore gun should be less accurate than rifled gun.

That's interesting P2P, still it should weight around 60 tons then, with unmanned turret more weight would mean that beast have incredible armor protection!

Neither where rifled bores inferior, i am not sure of this whole gun thing on Arjun. Perhaps when i can meet some one in DRDO i will have a word on what is the rational behind sticking with Rifled gun. They had a chance to switch to smooth bore and they also manufacture smooth bore but yet they choose to stick with Rifled ones is some what weird, may be it is a design philosophy, i will need to get to the bottom of that.

 

[methos]

Arjun has proven its superiority

&

Latest test where T-90S was out preform in performance is true..

There are a lot of more factors important than one single test. Maybe the crews of the Arjun was just better trained than the T-90 crew, maybe they were just lucky. Unless we have full access to the data of what was tested and how it was tested a single event does not have much expressiveness.

Regarding anti-Armour is obsolete is dead wrong, US wars and Russian wars are not same as Indian wars..

Yes, U.S. and Russia only fight enemies who are on a technical level at least two decades behind them. India does not have this situation.

 

[Damian]

The computrised fire control is a generation ahead of these tanks you mentioned, with the added support of the suspension and rifiled bore it can hit targets longer and with better accuracy. Lets not get into the rifieled bore vs smooth bore again. The Arjuns accuracy is excellent and the tests where witnessed by Army personal who did not object.

What means generation ahead? In what? Give me precision of stabilization in mrads, then we can say something about accuracy.

I am not sure of the gun, i think haveing the smooth bore would mean haveing the same stuff as T-90 perhaps that is the reason they want Rifiled gun,

Having a tank with smoothbore gun using two piece ammunition and second tank with smoothbore gun using one piece ammunition makes a difference You know.

we are not a Nato country and we dont need to beleieve everything NATO does is the best.

Sure, but unfortunetly to You in 1990's that was NATO that made extensive research and purchased illegaly tanks from Soviet Union to develop ammunition capable to effectively dealt with their protection.

In joint exercises with USAF our IAF proved its metal and many a times USAF was take aback.

I think You do not understand a purpose of such excercises. USAF pilots are specially limited and sometimes forced to loose, but there is a purpose in this madness, hope You figure out on Your own what is this purpose.

 

[Damian]

BTW, here are offered upgrades for T-72 tanks (probably Ukrainian modernization).

As we can see, turret, or hull or both can be upgraded with heavy ERA, making even old tank very well protected and in the end if we do not have modern ammunition designed to defeat both heavy ERA and composite armors, such old tank becomes very dangerous foe.

Currently the only countries that developed ammunition designed with heavy ERA in mind are Germany and USA, while US will probably be not willing to sell M829A2 or M829A3, Germany might be willing to sell DM53 or DM63... however this ammunition is only for 120mm smoothbore guns.

So as we can see, the problem also for India will increase, because anyone can buy cheap yet effective heavy ERA and integrate it on their tanks.