Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

[Godless-Kafir]

What means generation ahead? In what? Give me precision of stabilization in mrads, then we can say something about accuracy.

drdo.gov.in/drdo/drdojsp/downloadtndr.jsp?tenderName... I am going home from work will continue when i reach home later.

Having a tank with smoothbore gun using two piece ammunition and second tank with smoothbore gun using one piece ammunition makes a difference You know.

As i told you i am not sure of the gun there is news of smooth bore as well.

Sure, but unfortunetly to You in 1990's that was NATO that made extensive research and purchased illegaly tanks from Soviet Union to develop ammunition capable to effectively dealt with their protection.



I think You do not understand a purpose of such excercises. USAF pilots are specially limited and sometimes forced to loose, but there is a purpose in this madness, hope You figure out on Your own what is this purpose.

No we dont know our whole Armed forces is dumb beyond one polish internet dude.

The professionalism in Indian armed forces is in par with NATO, every nato nations testifies to that and we know what we are doing. We did not open our bars in our Radars for probing in any exercise and we turned down their request to link up with their AWACS. We are quite dumb you know, we dont shit.

 

[Damian]

No we dont know our whole Armed forces is dumb beyond one polish internet dude.

Be serious... at least this time. I never said that You soldiers are dumb. But the known fact is that when US makes some excercises with someone, it is only to see what are real capabilities fo that armed forces participating in excercises with US, and US do not see any need to win in such excercises because it is not a purpose of these excercises from their point of view.

It is a very smart approach.

BTW about stabilization.

M1A1/Leopard 2A4 stabilization have such accuracy (I do not know if this is proper word):

Vertical - 0,15-0,20 mrad
Horizontal - 0,3-0,4 mrad

Dunno if in more modern variants it was improved.

For basic T-90 it is:

Vertical - 0,4 mrad
Horizontal - 0,6 mrad

So stabilization precision is not worse than in NATO tanks. However newer variants of NATO MBT's like Leopard 2A6 or M1A2SEP might be better here, but data for their stabilization is unavaiable to me.

 

[p2prada]

So stabilization precision is not worse than in NATO tanks. However newer variants of NATO MBT's like Leopard 2A6 or M1A2SEP might be better here, but data for their stabilization is unavaiable to me.

Kalina should offer even better accuracy. 22/23 from the Russians.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

I have my doubts about latest tests, mainly because Arjun case is purely political and prestige problem + the fact that DRDO is state owned.

Sure, but currently we have here rather a hate contest against T-90 than a merithoric discussion, most people tend to look at this by mentioned political, prestige and "patriotic" reasons, not vehicles design.

There is little place for pride and patriotic reason in organisations in India when it comes down to the weaponry performance, Weaponry are selected based on there performance, There are many home made project cancelled before coz it didn't meet required level,

Arjun on other hand beat T-90S in performance that is why its running in IA, further talk words of Army chief of Indian army it does weight, not some politician in MOD of India..

Unfortunately this is all coz of some big mouths in MOD and top brass..

What means generation ahead? In what? Give me precision of stabilization in mrads, then we can say something about accuracy.

I dont have much information on this, but the FCS is hybrid of Elbit and Bel, If you can find about Merkava 3 FCS in 2008, you can be close to Arjun FCS tech information but it have bel input too..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

No personal attacks please..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

.

Do you have more side pics, It looks like they provide Heavy era at side of the chassis ?

 

[p2prada]

Hope the Arjun II clobbers the T-90, especially in the night firing trials.

If a tank from 2012 cannot exceed a tank configured in 1997, then it will look real bad for DRDO.

I am quite sure Arjun Mk2 will exceed the current version of the T-90. The question is will it be enough for the Army to start looking seriously at the Mk2 or even the Mk3 before FMBT starts.

Another question is if the current upgrade is equivalent of(or even in the same class as) what has already been demonstrated in Leo2 A7 or the T-90AM or a near future version of the M1A3.

 

[Damian]

@Kunal

There is little place for pride and patriotic reason in organisations in India when it comes down to the weaponry performance, Weaponry are selected based on there performance, There are many home made project cancelled before coz it didn't meet required level,

Arjun on other hand beat T-90S in performance that is why its running in IA, further talk words of Army chief of Indian army it does weight, not some politician in MOD of India..

Unfortunately this is all coz of some big mouths in MOD and top brass..

You might belive that but I seen too much of political bias when it comes to weapon systems developed not by private owned company but state owned R&D Bureau. Let's make it clear, I do not belive state owned organization much, they do not have motivation to do everything they can do to design as best weapon system as they can... unfortunetly with more and more widespread goverment "support", even privetly owned companys start to decline in to this path.

I dont have much information on this, but the FCS is hybrid of Elbit and Bel, If you can find about Merkava 3 FCS in 2008, you can be close to Arjun FCS tech information but it have bel input too..

Hmmm, as far as I can tell, in terms of precision, FCS and stabilization of Merkava series is comparable to NATO standards as well as newer Soviet and now Russian and Ukrainian.

Do you have more side pics, It looks like they provide Heavy era at side of the chassis ?

Sure, search here:

Gur Khan attacks!

And I need to do correction here. The green T-72 is Ukrainian T-72UA4, while the sand colored one is Kazakhstan made upgrade.

@P2P

Kalina should offer even better accuracy. 22/23 from the Russians.

True.

If a tank from 2012 cannot exceed a tank configured in 1997, then it will look real bad for DRDO.

I am quite sure Arjun Mk2 will exceed the current version of the T-90. The question is will it be enough for the Army to start looking seriously at the Mk2 or even the Mk3 before FMBT starts.

Another question is if the current upgrade is equivalent of(or even in the same class as) what has already been demonstrated in Leo2 A7 or the T-90AM or a near future version of the M1A3.

Well, Leopard 2A7 is in reality nothing more than up-armored Leopard 2A5/A6 with some additions like RWS and redesigned (or new one) commander CITV. T-90MS is a definetly new tank, but questions rises if it is currently adapted for also assymetrhic warfare, I have some doubts about these side skirts.

As for M1A3, hey M1A2SEP v2 is allready high tech tank, in some respects it is the more advanced tank out there, the proposed upgrade (supposed M1A3) is still not new tank, but focus on upgrading armor protection, survivability, automotive and mechanical components and C3I/C4ISR interoperability, yet it might be that it take some time before it will be ready... pitty that as there are actually developed demonstrators of turret and probably hull with these upgrades, they were not shown to public. I only saw a photo of new vision block with in build HUD, nice thing, might help a lot.

 

[Bhadra]

Gist of the discussion:
My Gun is better than yours
My barrel is thicker and longer than yours

How natural but funny

 

[Kunal Biswas]

@Kunal

You might belive that but I seen too much of political bias when it comes to weapon systems developed not by private owned company but state owned R&D Bureau. Let's make it clear, I do not belive state owned organization much, they do not have motivation to do everything they can do to design as best weapon system as they can... unfortunetly with more and more widespread goverment "support", even privetly owned companys start to decline in to this path.

Sure, search here:

Gur Khan attacks!

And I need to do correction here. The green T-72 is Ukrainian T-72UA4, while the sand colored one is Kazakhstan made upgrade.

Not India, Look at past programs you will get the picture..

Impressive..

 

[Damian]

Not India, Look at past programs you will get the picture..

Not matters who, state owned will allways be less effective than private owned, simple as that. State owned do not need to worry if they loose or win, they will get money either way, private owned need to compete, if loose then no money. This brings private owned companys to the point where they need to do thing good if not then their product will not be choosen.

Impressive..

What is impressive? ERA? I suppose it might be based on Kontakt-5.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not matters who, state owned will allways be less effective than private owned, simple as that. State owned do not need to worry if they loose or win, they will get money either way, private owned need to compete, if loose then no money. This brings private owned companys to the point where they need to do thing good if not then their product will not be choosen.

What is impressive? ERA? I suppose it might be based on Kontakt-5.

That is true, but in India there is no private but foreign that comes with arm dealers..

Impressive the way it is put, are you sure that is Ukraine not IMI..

The finish looks like imi work just like on Kasak T-72

 

[Damian]

That is true, but in India there is no private but foreign that comes with arm dealers..

But You see this is another problem. Goverment and Army starts Arjun program, and that's all, they should say " we start new MBT Arjun program and we will be happy to see different companys offers, then we start evaluation of each offer and choose the best one, one of the most important factors will be transfer of technology and production line in India" and that all. Nobody really needs here a state owned design bureau.

In open competition many companys would be even happy like little kids with new toy, to present their product and compete with each other. As far as I recall You got the same with new fighter jet yes? And wheres problem? Nowhere, you will get new jet choosen in open competition.

And open competition does not mean that state owned design bureau could not also participate, they can, and open competition would force them to do things better, to do them on time and what is more important, they were be abale to see what other have and learning by observation, design their product by incorporating some of solution used by others.

Look at GCV program, it is rather obvious that US will not buy SPz Puma or CV90, they will definetly buy something US made, but open competition gives them opportunity to evaluate these vehicles and if nececary adapt usefull design solutions so there will be costs savings and time savings. There is no purpose to reinvent the wheel if someone else allready invented it.

In fact by observing current situation I think that in future nobody will care about developing each component of vehicle from scratch if there are such components allready avaiable on market, You just buy a licence and manufacture this component in Your factory. The only thing that can be completely new will be vehicle structure, outer shell and eventually components that will need to be designed from scratch.

Even US seems to just buy a licence and manufacture Diesel engines designed in Germany (why not, these are good engines) than make their own, even if they have very good Diesel engines, and also very powerfull like the latest 1500HP AVDS-1790 variant. Also US spent enourmous pile of money on developing engines, due to budget cuts they never went in to production but were ready for it... unfortunetly, but as it seems there is no sense to make something on Your own when You can buy it and build it.

Impressive the way it is put, are you sure that is Ukraine not IMI..

As I said, T-72 with green paint is Ukrainian, T-72UA4, the tan painted one is Kazakhstan T-72 upgrade, and there is also upgrade developed amon many by Israel designated T-72KZ, so Kazakh Army is offered with 3 different upgrades.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

Be serious... at least this time. I never said that You soldiers are dumb. But the known fact is that when US makes some excercises with someone, it is only to see what are real capabilities fo that armed forces participating in excercises with US, and US do not see any need to win in such excercises because it is not a purpose of these excercises from their point of view.

It is a very smart approach.

BTW about stabilization.

M1A1/Leopard 2A4 stabilization have such accuracy (I do not know if this is proper word):

Vertical - 0,15-0,20 mrad
Horizontal - 0,3-0,4 mrad

Dunno if in more modern variants it was improved.

For basic T-90 it is:

Vertical - 0,4 mrad
Horizontal - 0,6 mrad

So stabilization precision is not worse than in NATO tanks. However newer variants of NATO MBT's like Leopard 2A6 or M1A2SEP might be better here, but data for their stabilization is unavaiable to me.

This is what is annoying, what makes you think we would not know what the Americans are upto? When we conducted the nuclear tests our agencies knew when the US spy satellites pass over head, they stopped work exactly when the satellites where over. I can very clearly sense some sort of casual jealousy in your assessment of Indian stuff. I dont appreciate that, you dismiss stuff based on where it is made.

The USAF was little annoyed with the way we performed better in certain assignments. Every one join the Red flag exercise including the French, British and Korean and we perform exercises regularly. There is nothing that they need to learn about us, they know a lot and Indian armed forces to knows a lot about their stuff thanks to joint exercise. Dont assume silly kindergarten stuff you know by surfing the net will not be known in the defence circles, after all what we know comes from what they do every day.

You radian numbers are all juggled up, As per tender notice of Arjun Mark-2 the accuracy they require is not much but the gun meets specification, i have read about this a long time back on Bharat Rakshak, i cant find the source. You can join the forum and ask questions there, they are the senior defense trolls on the net.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

More info on control and sights.

 

[Damian]

This is what is annoying, what makes you think we would not know what the Americans are upto? When we conducted the nuclear tests our agencies knew when the US spy satellites pass over head, they stopped work exactly when the satellites where over. I can very clearly sense some sort of casual jealousy in your assessment of Indian stuff. I dont appreciate that, you dismiss stuff based on where it is made.

1) You taking something obvious as something important, only because satelaties trajectories are known does not mean anything.

2) I do not compare equipment based on where it is made, but on it's characteristics... only "techno patriots" from some countries that only just started to develop weapon systems of certain type, think that they allready achieved level of countries and designers that have long tradition and huge experience in development... maybe some more realism eh? It is not said to be offensive, it is just realism. For example I know as my countrymen that we can develop new MBT, why not, we have scientists, industry, but general consensus among people here is that this first development will not be as good as some other countries, it will most probably be full of flaws, that will not nececary be "repairable", and completely new design will be needed. It is realistic thinking, not a wishfull thinking to be a military and technological superpower in a short time period. Critcism of own design is good, it inspires debate, seek for new routes, new design solutions.

The USAF was little annoyed with the way we performed better in certain assignments. Every one join the Red flag exercise including the French, British and Korean and we perform exercises regularly. There is nothing that they need to learn about us, they know a lot and Indian armed forces to knows a lot about their stuff thanks to joint exercise. Dont assume silly kindergarten stuff you know by surfing the net will not be known in the defence circles, after all what we know comes from what they do every day.

? It seems I once again hit Your weak point... oh come on, stop this silly being offended thing only because of national ambitions. Everyone knowns that Red Flag and other excercices from US perspective are done only to see what other are capable to do. This is why scenarios are staged, one side for example can't use all it's assetts, and US goal isn't to win these excercices at all, really. As I said, be more realistic, and friendly to other nations also. Not each critic is an enemy, sometimes constructive criticism is a good thing.

You radian numbers are all juggled up, As per tender notice of Arjun Mark-2 the accuracy they require is not much but the gun meets specification, i have read about this a long time back on Bharat Rakshak, i cant find the source. You can join the forum and ask questions there, they are the senior defense trolls on the net.

From what You provided it seems that Arjun stabilization seems to be comparable to other similiar systems. But accuracy depends on many more factors, for exampl if gun and sights are properly boresighted, if crew is properly trained, if they have proper ammo and ammo ballistic data in FCS computer etc.

So really, screweing something up intentionally or not to prove some point is easy in that case.

 

[methos]

2,500 m LRF range only? That's at least pretty sub-standard.

 

[Godless-Kafir]

What is the slope on side hit? Obviously from the angle drawn the shell will hit on a sloped area. The cavity on the side should be large enough. Also if they add ERA wont that make it even better and solve the issue?

The driver, Commander, loader all sit before the hatch which puts them inside the armored region.

 

[methos]

(better enlarge image to read the texts)

I hope this will make the problem of the Arjun turret layout more clear. The armour placement is inherited from Soviet tanks (e.g. from T-72 and T-90), while the turret design is copied from Western tanks (look turret, with large overhang and big crew comparment). While the protection would be not bad if the Arjun would use a Soviet/Russian concept turret, the de facto used Western turret layout creates large danger zones, more than 40% of all angles. The ammo storage (which is based on pictures not isolated from the crew comparment) can be hit form all angles greater than 10°.

 

[Damian]

2,500 m LRF range only? That's at least pretty sub-standard.

Yeah, this is interesting, I wonder if this is overall LRF max range or this is a locked range for FCS, like in Leo2 and M1 4,000m is locked range for FCS while LRF can messure range much further away. AFAIK in new FCS of M1 tanks, rnage finder have a very long range so tanks can use FTL (Far Target Location) system for precise artillery coordinates calculations.

PS. Thanks for clearer drawing Methos.