Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[Indx TechStyle]

Avadi HVF capacity being ramped up

Capacity at the Heavy Vehicles Factory (HVF), Avadi, which manufactures heavy battlefield equipment for Indian Army, is being increased significantly even as the factory is gearing up to manufacture Main Battle Tank Arjun Mark II.

HVF is awaiting final confirmation from Army for Mark II, according to Hari Mohan, Senior General Manager. Some of the major components, chassis building, gear box and miscellaneous components will be part of the augmentation for which construction is going on and machinery is being procured, he told newspersons on the sidelines of a CII conference on Defence Manufacturing Technologies on the theme ‘Defence Indigenisation – Window of Opportunities’.

Revenue increase

Mohan said HVF is likely to report a 60 per cent increase in revenue to nearly ₹2,400 crore this year, and next year, it will be nearly ₹3,000 crore. “We have been booked by Indian Army till 2035,” he said.

HVF has nearly 300 industry partners, of which 100 are in Tamil Nadu. Mohan said there are many items that HVF is yet to indigenise. There is ample business opportunity for the private sector.

“There are also severe capacity limitations for our existing vendors,” he said.

.

For supplying a major component that goes under the chassis of the battle tank, HVF had only one vendor, and is now developing Lucas TVS as another source in Chennai. All the components that go into the tanks are very technology intensive. “No failure is acceptable, and this is a challenge,” he said.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Is this Gun also indigenous product ? How about placing these types of Gun on LOC !!

Army is already placing remote controled guns on LOC.

 

[Rushil51]

Army is already placing remote controled guns on LOC.

Wow never heard of it. Do you have some news arcticle or something, brother?

 

[Rahul Singh]

Wow never heard of it. Do you have some news arcticle or something, brother?

http://m.hindustantimes.com/india/a...nfiltrators/story-HDBgHHXgSsYzvyDeGOqDmO.html

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Wow never heard of it. Do you have some news arcticle or something, brother?

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...ed-guns-at-loc-to-take-on-infiltrators.71962/

 

[bose]

We must plan an alternative production unit for tanks and heavy equipment's ...

 

[Shaitan]

We must plan an alternative production unit for tanks and heavy equipment's ...

L&T will build a plant for K9. That right there will support future front line armor. The two private firms that'll win the FICV program will also build their own plant. So if TATA and L&T win, India will have OFB, TATA, and L&T that will be capable of producing armor. Mahindra and Reliance are very serious about getting into this field as well.

 

[Shaitan]

------------------------------

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Not captured T-59 but a decommissioned T-55 tank, The result will be much worst for a T-72M1 or derivatives which have sensors on turret sides and top ..

Against heavy concrete wall ..

 

[kstriya]

IDN TAKE: Main Battle Tank ARJUN: The Mighty Beast








by A.K Pandey




The army's opposition to the Arjun continued instead of the successful trials eliciting more orders, the Directorate General of Mechanized Forces (DGMF) demanded from the DRDO a long list of changes in the Arjun. For years, the DGMF argued that the 58-tonne Arjun was too heavy; that it would get bogged down in desert sands, bridges, and border roads culverts on Indian border roads. The army also complained the tank was too wide to be transported by the railways. This notion was comprehensively disproved during the comparative trials, when the Arjun proved more mobile than the lighter, 46-tonne T-90S, even on soft desert sand. A "third-party evaluation" done by Israeli Military Industries (IMI), which had developed the highly regarded Merkava tank, concluded the Arjun would outrun most tanks.




The Arjun Mk-2 variant developed by DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) essentially grew out of the Indian Army's recommended upgrades post the Arjun Mk-I's comparative trials with the T- 90S which included among other things the incorporation of an anti-tank missile firing capability, an increase in penetrating power of ammunition used and the mounting of explosive reactive armor (ERA) panels. In order to comply with these requests besides generally updating the Mk-I design and making its assemblies more production friendly, CVRDE has made some 93 upgrades to the baseline Mk-I, including 13 major improvements such as the incorporation of an improved commander's panoramic sight, a track width mine plough, automatic target tracking, power driven air defense gun, advanced running gear system, final drive with reduction ratio, an improved slip ring, capability to fire new thermobaric ammunition, ERA, a laser warning countermeasure system, and a new auxiliary power unit (APU) generating in excess of 8 KW of power that is double that of the Mk-l's APU.




DRDO has dropped the Israeli LAHAT from its Arjun Mk-2 MBT plans due to uneven accuracy, smoke regurgitation from the anti-tank LAHAT missile into the firing compartment as it is fired through the main gun. DRDO is pursuing the Canon Launched Guided Missile (CLGM) being developed indigenously at the Defense Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL).




A DRDO developed commander's nonpanoramic thermal imaging sight for the T- 90S has also entered production with BEL and the Ordnance Factory Board. The T-90S will also use indigenous high accuracy fiber optic gyros developed by DRDO's Research Center Imarat (RCI) and feature fire control systems developed for the Arjun Mk-2. While continuing to argue that the Arjun was too heavy, the Directorate General of Mechanized Forces' demand for 73 modifications to the Arjun quite predictably resulted in the tank becoming even heavier. The army's demand for Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA) to protect the crew added on one and a half tons. Another one and a half tons were added due to mine ploughs demanded by the Directorate General of Mechanized Forces, which churn up the ground ahead of the tank's tracks, unearthing buried anti-tank mines. Numerous other modifications, including a commander's panoramic sight, slapped on another two tons. From 57 tons, the Arjun now weighs 67 tons.






MBT Arjun fitted with mine plough


The Arjun Mk-2 is now held up by the army's insistence that it should fire an anti tank guided missile through its main gun, which is actually designed to fire armor piercing and high explosive shells. LAHAT missile, which has not proved successful, DRDO approached a Ukrainian design bureau has been approached for its combat missile. Demands accomplished by the DRDO - The driver has a seat which provides added protection in the eventuality of a mine blast. The front part of the chassis and the turret are fitted with an integrated explosive reactive armor (ERA) system. The all-round protection has been enhanced with the improved KANCHAN armor, a modular composite armor developed by India. It has been described as being made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogeneous Armor (RHA). This armor is able to defeat APDS and HEAT rounds and is believed to withstand APFSDS. The Arjun Mk-2 is equipped with epicycle transmission with hydrodynamic torque converter, mechanical lock-up clutch and hydrodynamic retarder with 4 forward and 2 reverse gears, a computerized day/thermal fire control system and a new panoramic sighting system for the commander is mounted right side of the turret roof. The system includes a laser range finder which has a hunter-killer capability.

Watch An Excellent Video on MBR ARJUN -


The gunner sight is fitted with an automatic target tracker which greatly enhances the speed and accurate target engagement capability of the tank. To increase the self-protection of the Arjun Mk-2, a laser warning and countermeasure system (ALWACS) developed in collaboration with the Israeli Company Elbit Systems is mounted on each side of the turret. The four ALWACS elements are mounted at each corner of the turret to provide 360-degree coverage. The system detects and classifies laser threats and fire smoke grenades from an independent rotary launcher. The front of the chassis equipped with a track width mine plough to give the vehicle the ability to rapidly force a passage through a mined obstacle by creating a cleared path for it tracks to follow. Standard equipment of the Arjun Mk-2 includes also a thermal night vision sight for the driver, and advanced land navigation system which provides Inertial and GPS-based navigation, NBC protection system, fume extractor system, auxiliary power unit and integrated fire detection and suppression system.




The turret and glacis are protected with Kanchan composite armor. Kanchan is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogeneous Armor (RHA) which helps in defeating Armour-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) and High-Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) rounds. Trials were conducted in 2000 which showcased the ability of Kanchan armor to protect the tank when hit at point blank range by a T-72. It had also demonstrated the capability to defeat High-Explosive Squash Head (HESH) and APFSDS rounds, which included the deadly Israeli APFSDS rounds. A new honeycomb design of non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armor (NERA) along with nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) protection equipment, minesweepers and one automatic fire fighting system are incorporated on the Arjun Mark-2 variant. Signature reduction to bring down the probabilities of the object being detected by Infrared seekers and thermal radar bands are also being incorporated.




Arjun Mk-I and T-90S Trials





The missile firing capability requirement grew out of the fact that though the Arjun Mk-I with a score of 25.77 beat the T-90S with a score of 24.50 in the firepower criteria during the 2010 comparative trials if the T-90S's missile firing capability were to be kept aside, the T-90 fared marginally better in the overall final score primarily on account of its Invar missile firing capability. The comparative trials were on four parameters viz. fire power, survivability, reliability and miscellaneous issues of the tank with weightage of 40, 35, 15 and 10 respectively.




As per the trial report, MBT Arjun performed better than the T-90 tank in accuracy and consistency of firepower. "Arjun did better than Russian-origin T-90S tanks in comparative trials in 2010. But the Army keeps on changing its technical requirements. If it ordered around 500 Arjun, it would stabilize production lines." said a scientist. Importantly, the Indian Army concluded (April 2010) that "Arjun had performed creditably and it could be employed both for offensive and defensive tasks with same efficacy of T-90 tank".




Now if the Mk-I itself could do that, then the Mk-2 given its technology, will certainly do far better. In fact, in terms of both firepower and survivability, the Mk-I will easily surpass Eastern Block tanks with or without taking into account a missile firing capability. As such the Arjun Mk-2 is clearly something that the Indian Army should be using to out match Pakistani tanks, especially in the desert sector where the T-90S electronics and sights have been known to function erratically. But the Army is adamant it will not order 118 Arjun Mark-2 tanks, at a cost of Rs. 5,745 Crore, till the clear all operational trials. A senior People's Liberation Army (PLA) officer at its premier tank design institution, the Academy of Armored Forces Engineering in Beijing, told visiting Indian journalists that the Arjun tank is "very good", and well suited for Indian conditions.




Comptroller And auditor General of India (CAG) Report






The CAG raps the Army in this report on Arjun MBT. The CAG has revealed what was restricted to the corridors of MoD and hidden behind the secrecy of 'national interest'. An order was placed for additional T-90 tanks in November 2007 even as Army kept on adding its requirements for the Arjun, said the CAG.




The CAG, in its latest report, said there were eight instances in which Arjun in the comparative trial was judged against more stringent benchmarks parameters. "We noticed eight instances where the Army placed benchmark of parameters on Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks... the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field".





The Comptroller and Auditor General of India about the frequent changes in design leading to delay in development of MBT Arjun. The development of MBT prototype was to be completed by April 1982 but after going through several modifications in design, the prototype was cleared by the Army in 1998.




The reply does not take cognizance of the fact that even after clearing the production after acceptance of the prototype (1998), the designs continued to be re-worked for 12 years thereafter and frozen only in 2010. The most significant setback to the production of MBT Arjun was the change in requirements put forth by the Army in February 2007. It takes little imagination to conclude why the Army feels that the Arjun Mk-2 which is reaching a 67tonne weight does not meet its requirement for the future. Its basic features were conceived for a different era. A lighter tank made heavier by adding on armor and additional features can still be made to retain its character by getting a more powerful engine. A heavy tank may not be tolerant to be made lighter without the basic design going awry.




Dr. S Christopher, Director General, DRDO said, "Weight is slightly on the higher side. We presumed when informed about the additional requirement on Mk-I that weight will also be allowed additionally. Unfortunately, we missed the point." Elaborating further, he added, "Army says there are bridges where Mk-2 might find it difficult to move. This is the reason why we have developed the other bridge and made our tank go over it again and again when displayed at DefExpo. We are trying to tell the army that even if we may not be able to use it as it is everywhere, there definitely can be places where it can be used."




In 2008, the DRDO had also noted, "The major imported systems in the tank are the powerpack and gun control system from Germany and Delft-SAGEM gunner’s main sight from OIP Belgium. The percentage of import content is 60% in the first lot of 124 tanks to be produced, which will be reduced to under 45% with the manufacture of first 200 tanks and under 30% with the manufacture of about 500 tanks." This indicates that the Arjun tank, ironically, remains largely a foreign product, both in terms of value as well as critical systems.




Because of the problems with the refitted Arjun Mk-2, a new version of the Arjun is developed which became known as the Arjun Mk-3. The tank is built exclusively from the new high strength composites and alloys and was able to be armored far more effectively. It is slightly larger than the Arjun Mk-2 and has more powerful secondary weapons. The Arjun Mk-3 has on the sides of the turret four double launchers for short-range missiles. A more powerful gas turbine engine replaced the original engines to retain mobility with a larger tank.




Original problems with the Arjun Mk-I rose with the Mk-2 too, though the capabilities of the new tank have silenced critics and test personnel. Weight was an issue with the Arjun Mk-2, significantly heavier than the Arjun Mk-1, though the DRDO has dispelled comparisons with the T-90S. "T-90S and MBT Arjun tanks are of a different class. Both the tanks have their own special features. In MBT Arjun, we have more power to weight ratio, hydro-pneumatic suspension for better ride comfort and a stable platform to fire on the move, better quality class of Gun Control System and Fire Control System etc. Missile firing capability of Arjun was demonstrated. T-90S tank has missile firing capability and lower silhouette. Tanks of both the class are required by the Indian Army," the DRDO had said in 2008.




AK Pandey is an avid Defence enthusiast and a great fan of IDN. This piece on the MBT ARJUN was written by him exclusively for IDN. Views expressed are his own.

 

[kstriya]

IDN TAKE: Main Battle Tank ARJUN: The Mighty Beast








by A.K Pandey




The army's opposition to the Arjun continued instead of the successful trials eliciting more orders, the Directorate General of Mechanized Forces (DGMF) demanded from the DRDO a long list of changes in the Arjun. For years, the DGMF argued that the 58-tonne Arjun was too heavy; that it would get bogged down in desert sands, bridges, and border roads culverts on Indian border roads. The army also complained the tank was too wide to be transported by the railways. This notion was comprehensively disproved during the comparative trials, when the Arjun proved more mobile than the lighter, 46-tonne T-90S, even on soft desert sand. A "third-party evaluation" done by Israeli Military Industries (IMI), which had developed the highly regarded Merkava tank, concluded the Arjun would outrun most tanks.




The Arjun Mk-2 variant developed by DRDO's Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE) essentially grew out of the Indian Army's recommended upgrades post the Arjun Mk-I's comparative trials with the T- 90S which included among other things the incorporation of an anti-tank missile firing capability, an increase in penetrating power of ammunition used and the mounting of explosive reactive armor (ERA) panels. In order to comply with these requests besides generally updating the Mk-I design and making its assemblies more production friendly, CVRDE has made some 93 upgrades to the baseline Mk-I, including 13 major improvements such as the incorporation of an improved commander's panoramic sight, a track width mine plough, automatic target tracking, power driven air defense gun, advanced running gear system, final drive with reduction ratio, an improved slip ring, capability to fire new thermobaric ammunition, ERA, a laser warning countermeasure system, and a new auxiliary power unit (APU) generating in excess of 8 KW of power that is double that of the Mk-l's APU.




DRDO has dropped the Israeli LAHAT from its Arjun Mk-2 MBT plans due to uneven accuracy, smoke regurgitation from the anti-tank LAHAT missile into the firing compartment as it is fired through the main gun. DRDO is pursuing the Canon Launched Guided Missile (CLGM) being developed indigenously at the Defense Research and Development Laboratory (DRDL).




A DRDO developed commander's nonpanoramic thermal imaging sight for the T- 90S has also entered production with BEL and the Ordnance Factory Board. The T-90S will also use indigenous high accuracy fiber optic gyros developed by DRDO's Research Center Imarat (RCI) and feature fire control systems developed for the Arjun Mk-2. While continuing to argue that the Arjun was too heavy, the Directorate General of Mechanized Forces' demand for 73 modifications to the Arjun quite predictably resulted in the tank becoming even heavier. The army's demand for Explosive Reactive Armor (ERA) to protect the crew added on one and a half tons. Another one and a half tons were added due to mine ploughs demanded by the Directorate General of Mechanized Forces, which churn up the ground ahead of the tank's tracks, unearthing buried anti-tank mines. Numerous other modifications, including a commander's panoramic sight, slapped on another two tons. From 57 tons, the Arjun now weighs 67 tons.






MBT Arjun fitted with mine plough


The Arjun Mk-2 is now held up by the army's insistence that it should fire an anti tank guided missile through its main gun, which is actually designed to fire armor piercing and high explosive shells. LAHAT missile, which has not proved successful, DRDO approached a Ukrainian design bureau has been approached for its combat missile. Demands accomplished by the DRDO - The driver has a seat which provides added protection in the eventuality of a mine blast. The front part of the chassis and the turret are fitted with an integrated explosive reactive armor (ERA) system. The all-round protection has been enhanced with the improved KANCHAN armor, a modular composite armor developed by India. It has been described as being made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogeneous Armor (RHA). This armor is able to defeat APDS and HEAT rounds and is believed to withstand APFSDS. The Arjun Mk-2 is equipped with epicycle transmission with hydrodynamic torque converter, mechanical lock-up clutch and hydrodynamic retarder with 4 forward and 2 reverse gears, a computerized day/thermal fire control system and a new panoramic sighting system for the commander is mounted right side of the turret roof. The system includes a laser range finder which has a hunter-killer capability.

Watch An Excellent Video on MBR ARJUN -


The gunner sight is fitted with an automatic target tracker which greatly enhances the speed and accurate target engagement capability of the tank. To increase the self-protection of the Arjun Mk-2, a laser warning and countermeasure system (ALWACS) developed in collaboration with the Israeli Company Elbit Systems is mounted on each side of the turret. The four ALWACS elements are mounted at each corner of the turret to provide 360-degree coverage. The system detects and classifies laser threats and fire smoke grenades from an independent rotary launcher. The front of the chassis equipped with a track width mine plough to give the vehicle the ability to rapidly force a passage through a mined obstacle by creating a cleared path for it tracks to follow. Standard equipment of the Arjun Mk-2 includes also a thermal night vision sight for the driver, and advanced land navigation system which provides Inertial and GPS-based navigation, NBC protection system, fume extractor system, auxiliary power unit and integrated fire detection and suppression system.




The turret and glacis are protected with Kanchan composite armor. Kanchan is made by sandwiching composite panels between Rolled Homogeneous Armor (RHA) which helps in defeating Armour-Piercing Fin-Stabilized Discarding Sabot (APFSDS) and High-Explosive Anti-Tank (HEAT) rounds. Trials were conducted in 2000 which showcased the ability of Kanchan armor to protect the tank when hit at point blank range by a T-72. It had also demonstrated the capability to defeat High-Explosive Squash Head (HESH) and APFSDS rounds, which included the deadly Israeli APFSDS rounds. A new honeycomb design of non-explosive and non-energetic reactive armor (NERA) along with nuclear, biological and chemical (NBC) protection equipment, minesweepers and one automatic fire fighting system are incorporated on the Arjun Mark-2 variant. Signature reduction to bring down the probabilities of the object being detected by Infrared seekers and thermal radar bands are also being incorporated.




Arjun Mk-I and T-90S Trials





The missile firing capability requirement grew out of the fact that though the Arjun Mk-I with a score of 25.77 beat the T-90S with a score of 24.50 in the firepower criteria during the 2010 comparative trials if the T-90S's missile firing capability were to be kept aside, the T-90 fared marginally better in the overall final score primarily on account of its Invar missile firing capability. The comparative trials were on four parameters viz. fire power, survivability, reliability and miscellaneous issues of the tank with weightage of 40, 35, 15 and 10 respectively.




As per the trial report, MBT Arjun performed better than the T-90 tank in accuracy and consistency of firepower. "Arjun did better than Russian-origin T-90S tanks in comparative trials in 2010. But the Army keeps on changing its technical requirements. If it ordered around 500 Arjun, it would stabilize production lines." said a scientist. Importantly, the Indian Army concluded (April 2010) that "Arjun had performed creditably and it could be employed both for offensive and defensive tasks with same efficacy of T-90 tank".




Now if the Mk-I itself could do that, then the Mk-2 given its technology, will certainly do far better. In fact, in terms of both firepower and survivability, the Mk-I will easily surpass Eastern Block tanks with or without taking into account a missile firing capability. As such the Arjun Mk-2 is clearly something that the Indian Army should be using to out match Pakistani tanks, especially in the desert sector where the T-90S electronics and sights have been known to function erratically. But the Army is adamant it will not order 118 Arjun Mark-2 tanks, at a cost of Rs. 5,745 Crore, till the clear all operational trials. A senior People's Liberation Army (PLA) officer at its premier tank design institution, the Academy of Armored Forces Engineering in Beijing, told visiting Indian journalists that the Arjun tank is "very good", and well suited for Indian conditions.




Comptroller And auditor General of India (CAG) Report






The CAG raps the Army in this report on Arjun MBT. The CAG has revealed what was restricted to the corridors of MoD and hidden behind the secrecy of 'national interest'. An order was placed for additional T-90 tanks in November 2007 even as Army kept on adding its requirements for the Arjun, said the CAG.




The CAG, in its latest report, said there were eight instances in which Arjun in the comparative trial was judged against more stringent benchmarks parameters. "We noticed eight instances where the Army placed benchmark of parameters on Arjun which were more stringent in comparison to those placed on T-90 tanks... the imposition of more stringent parameters precluded a level playing field".





The Comptroller and Auditor General of India about the frequent changes in design leading to delay in development of MBT Arjun. The development of MBT prototype was to be completed by April 1982 but after going through several modifications in design, the prototype was cleared by the Army in 1998.




The reply does not take cognizance of the fact that even after clearing the production after acceptance of the prototype (1998), the designs continued to be re-worked for 12 years thereafter and frozen only in 2010. The most significant setback to the production of MBT Arjun was the change in requirements put forth by the Army in February 2007. It takes little imagination to conclude why the Army feels that the Arjun Mk-2 which is reaching a 67tonne weight does not meet its requirement for the future. Its basic features were conceived for a different era. A lighter tank made heavier by adding on armor and additional features can still be made to retain its character by getting a more powerful engine. A heavy tank may not be tolerant to be made lighter without the basic design going awry.




Dr. S Christopher, Director General, DRDO said, "Weight is slightly on the higher side. We presumed when informed about the additional requirement on Mk-I that weight will also be allowed additionally. Unfortunately, we missed the point." Elaborating further, he added, "Army says there are bridges where Mk-2 might find it difficult to move. This is the reason why we have developed the other bridge and made our tank go over it again and again when displayed at DefExpo. We are trying to tell the army that even if we may not be able to use it as it is everywhere, there definitely can be places where it can be used."




In 2008, the DRDO had also noted, "The major imported systems in the tank are the powerpack and gun control system from Germany and Delft-SAGEM gunner’s main sight from OIP Belgium. The percentage of import content is 60% in the first lot of 124 tanks to be produced, which will be reduced to under 45% with the manufacture of first 200 tanks and under 30% with the manufacture of about 500 tanks." This indicates that the Arjun tank, ironically, remains largely a foreign product, both in terms of value as well as critical systems.




Because of the problems with the refitted Arjun Mk-2, a new version of the Arjun is developed which became known as the Arjun Mk-3. The tank is built exclusively from the new high strength composites and alloys and was able to be armored far more effectively. It is slightly larger than the Arjun Mk-2 and has more powerful secondary weapons. The Arjun Mk-3 has on the sides of the turret four double launchers for short-range missiles. A more powerful gas turbine engine replaced the original engines to retain mobility with a larger tank.




Original problems with the Arjun Mk-I rose with the Mk-2 too, though the capabilities of the new tank have silenced critics and test personnel. Weight was an issue with the Arjun Mk-2, significantly heavier than the Arjun Mk-1, though the DRDO has dispelled comparisons with the T-90S. "T-90S and MBT Arjun tanks are of a different class. Both the tanks have their own special features. In MBT Arjun, we have more power to weight ratio, hydro-pneumatic suspension for better ride comfort and a stable platform to fire on the move, better quality class of Gun Control System and Fire Control System etc. Missile firing capability of Arjun was demonstrated. T-90S tank has missile firing capability and lower silhouette. Tanks of both the class are required by the Indian Army," the DRDO had said in 2008.




AK Pandey is an avid Defence enthusiast and a great fan of IDN. This piece on the MBT ARJUN was written by him exclusively for IDN. Views expressed are his own.

Arjun MK3 fact or fiction? Or is it the future MBT being contemplated by Army in a RFP sometime back....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Senior army sources tell Business Standard that the Directorate General of Mechanised Forces (DGMF), which oversees the army’s tank force, has formally proposed that the Arjun be gradually improved through successive models --- Mark II, Mark III, Mark IV and so on --- rather than attempting a major technological leap into the unknown, which is what the FMBT would be.

Three important realizations drive the DGMF’s new proposal. Firstly, there is growing acceptance of the Arjun, after its strong performance in field trials. Secondly, the need for an industrial “eco-structure” for providing spares and maintenance backup for the Arjuns that are already operating. This would come up only if a viable number of tanks are in service. Finally, the DGMF believes that there are no recent breakthrough technologies in armoured vehicle design, which eliminates the logic for building an entirely new tank.

The DGMF’s proposal to scrap the FMBT indicates that it has bought into the concept of evolutionary development. The Arjun Mark II, which is currently undergoing field trials in Rajasthan, has 79 improvements over the Mark I that is in service. These include: the ability to fire an anti-tank guided missile (ATGM); a panoramic electro-optical sight for the commander; an improved suspension; and an auxiliary generator for powering the Arjun’s electricals when the main engine is not running.

Source : http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2012/11/army-proposes-to-scrap-future-main.html

=================

Old news, We shall know in depth around 2018-2020..

Arjun MK3 fact or fiction? Or is it the future MBT being contemplated by Army in a RFP sometime back....

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Some old updates but quite informative ..

 

[Hari Sud]

I believe Arjun main battle tank has lost out as Indian Army's first line of offence vehicle. The army has repeatedly found faults of no great importance, but still is very obstinate to let Arjun go on as MBT in armoured formation.

That situation is unlikely to change, now or in near future. No matter what The Defence Minister or Prime Minister do have it as Indian Army's tank.

Shame on General's who, in spite of being proved better than T-90 or called a desert Ferrari by the Israelis, will not accept it. That is bad for DRDO morale and good for guys who make millions in commissions. Interesting part is Presstitiutes of Yellow Journalism will have field day manufacturing issues and defects in the tank.

There are only one or two ways, - a wholesale purge from the ranks of Indian Army or changing completely the age old procedures of military hardware acceptance tests.

 

[Blood+]

I believe Arjun main battle tank has lost out as Indian Army's first line of offence vehicle. The army has repeatedly found faults of no great importance, but still is very obstinate to let Arjun go on as MBT in armoured formation.

That situation is unlikely to change, now or in near future. No matter what The Defence Minister or Prime Minister do have it as Indian Army's tank.

Shame on General's who, in spite of being proved better than T-90 or called a desert Ferrari by the Israelis, will not accept it. That is bad for DRDO morale and good for guys who make millions in commissions. Interesting part is Presstitiutes of Yellow Journalism will have field day manufacturing issues and defects in the tank.

There are only one or two ways, - a wholesale purge from the ranks of Indian Army or changing completely the age old procedures of military hardware acceptance tests.

The only real problem with Arjun, as far as I'm concerned, is the lack of a modern APFSDS round and to an extent, the rifled gun, which can be rectified within short order if the Army generals really intended to do so.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Rifled gun is liked by IA and they wanted to see it on MK2 as well ..

The ammunition is better than that of BM42 mango imported from Russian for Russian tanks used by Indian Army ..

The only real problem with Arjun, as far as I'm concerned, is the lack of a modern APFSDS round and to an extent, the rifled gun, which can be rectified within short order if the Army generals really intended to do so.

 

[Blood+]

Rifled gun is liked by IA and they wanted to see it on MK2 as well ..

And I find that rather weird because it just doesn't make any sense??I mean why would they do that, why would they wanna cling on to the outdated stuffs when more modern, cheaper and simpler to produce and above all, outright better alternatives are almost readily available??Does it originate from their love for legacy stuffs, I hope it isn't because if that's indeed the case, then I'm afraid it's pretty, in fact a stupendously stupid practice to follow, in such a line of business they are into.

I mean, show me one modern tank, just one barring Arjun, where the developers or the users decided to go for a rifled gun over a smooth barrel one.
Just name one modern tank, that's all I wanna hear from you, Sir.

I just don't understand, why are you people so hell bent on proving everything that comes out of our stable has to be a world-beater, when the facts speak otherwise??Why are you trying so hard to defend the indefensible??Why is it so hard to admit that our army made a wrong decision by going with an outdated gun??What purpose it serves you guys, because if it does, I'm really having a hard time seeing it!!

Ok, just forget all these, forget all these 'stupid, emotional rants' of questions.Just show me one merit, one good reason for retaining an outdated gun??Just......just show me one freaking advantage a rifled gun holds over a smooth barrel one, just freaking one and I promise I'll stop my 'rants' once and for all.
PS - Please do not bring in the small arms or heavy machine guns or AAA or tube artillery to justify your views, because we are talking about tank guns here.

The ammunition is better than that of BM42 mango imported from Russian for Russian tanks used by Indian Army ..

You speak as if that is some achievement, beating a round by an inch, which was designed way back in the early 80s!!Actually, we aren't even sure if that is true since the MkI penetrator is actually much shorter than the BM 42 penetrators!!
By the way, BM 42 is the designation for the penetrator where as the actual round, which you are reffering, is designated as 3BM 44, just as the BM 42M being the designation of the penetrator used in the 3BM 44M Lekalo rounds.
Now coming back to Arjun's ammo, there is no way the old MkI could achieve 500+ mm penetration at a distance of 2000 meter at 0 degree vertical angle, it's pretty much impossible.And before anyone decides to post the ARDE posters, I've already seen them, so please don't bother, I know what they have gotta to say and I just don't buy it!!Why - because as a general rule of thumb, a round's penetration value will always be 10-15% lower than the actual length of the rod itself and the rod in the MkI is at best 380 mm long, so it's practically impossible for it to achieve something like what's been claimed....................unless, our guys in the ARDE has managed to develop some miracle heavy alloy, straight out of some science fiction book.Heck, by that standard, MkI isn't even at the early 80's level!!
Both the Mango and Pronit (aka IMI CL MkII) packs longer rods with higher L: D ratio than our MkI does, yet they barely achieve 500 mm at 2000 meter at a muzzle velocity of around 1700 meter/second, so I don't see how on earth the existing round, with a shorter, fatter, lighter and slower moving rod can achieve the same level of performance!!After all, it's not some magic we are talking about, are we??

And as for the supposed MkII, even that would fare little better, as I've already pointed out, simply because again, its vastly shorter and fatter (thicker would be the right term, I know) penetrator rod, compared to even the Chinese APFSDS rounds, which by the way aren't that much impressive themselves!!So yeah, Arjun having better firepower than, I don't know, anything out there, anything of relevance that is, would be simply akin to stretching the facts too far, I mean really really ridiculously far.................and that's saying something!!

 

[armyofhind]

Another one!!Dude, give it a rest, it's shit round which went out of date a long time ago, in fact almost immediately after its inception!!And which self respecting army still uses shit like HESH in this day and age, really??

HESH rounds haven't gone out of date FYI. The modern versions are still highly effective against structures and fortifications.

And also FYI, HESH rounds are used by the British Army.
Now you might say that the British Army isn't self respecting. But that won't mean anything.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Strictly in Indian context, Rifled Gun preform better than those smooth bore gun, This achievement based on multiple factors which counts not only include Gun but FCS and superior crew training indeed, But Gun is one of those prime factor which cannot be ignored when India Army wanted it to be carried on, Tanks guns don`t use APFSDS most of the time but regular rounds like HEAT and HE in case of Arjun MK2 its thermobaric rounds with lower chamber pressures ..

If we wanted a smooth-bore its no rocket science as we are already making our own version of 2A46M as because of Tot issue, I personally have no issue if Indian Army finds 120mm smooth-bore a gud option, It would be welcome move in my opinion..

============

We are talking about MK2 and hence related ammunition with it and its development history ..

1. The CAG Report No.24 of 2011-12 (Defense Services) explains the development of DRDO Mk-2 round:

“Ministry of Defence, Department of Defence Research and Development (DDRD) in May 1996 sanctioned the above project at a cost of INR 2.30 crore to be completed by May 1998. It was sanctioned by DRDO without GSQR from Army HQ. The project after four revisions of probable date of completion (PDC) and three cost revisions, was closed in December 2004 after an expenditure INR 7.27 crore. The ammunition developed by the Laboratory did not meet the Users’ requirement as Users expressed an apprehension as to whether the trials conducted for MK-II ammunition in the absence of GSQR for this ammunition would qualify as user trials. To resolve the issue, the ammunition was subjected to Accelerated User Cum Reliability Trials (AUCRT) in August 2007 which again proved to be unsatisfactory. Ministry of Defence in its reply in February 2011 stated that trials with 30 rounds of improved ammunition, have been successfully completed in May 2010 and Army HQ has given go ahead for accelerated user trials with 500 rounds of the improved ammunition. Ministry’s reply should be viewed in the background of the fact that even after a lapse of 15 years the ammunition is yet to be inducted. Such ammunition is still being imported by Army.”

One measure of technological progress made by DRDO in development of 125mm APFSDS is the comparison of L Ratio of DRDO MK-1 and MK-2 round – this parameter was 14:1 for earlier round while the L Ratio of Mk-2 is 20:1.The picture above shows the comparative parameters for the Mk-1 and Mk-2 125mm rounds.

This ammunition is into production in 2015.

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DRDO has also developed the Mk-2 version of its earlier 120mm round for Arjun tank using same rod ..

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The objective is to archive 650mm @ 2000ms, This will be accomplished in time and cannot be expected in short time considering India`s reach of technology from outside ..

And I find that rather weird because it just doesn't make any sense??I mean why would they do that, why would they wanna cling on to the outdated stuffs when more modern, cheaper and simpler to produce and above all, outright better alternatives are almost readily available??Does it originate from their love for legacy stuffs, I hope it isn't because if that's indeed the case, then I'm afraid it's pretty, in fact a stupendously stupid practice to follow, in such a line of business they are into.

I mean, show me one modern tank, just one barring Arjun, where the developers or the users decided to go for a rifled gun over a smooth barrel one.
Just name one modern tank, that's all I wanna hear from you, Sir.

I just don't understand, why are you people so hell bent on proving everything that comes out of our stable has to be a world-beater, when the facts speak otherwise??Why are you trying so hard to defend the indefensible??Why is it so hard to admit that our army made a wrong decision by going with an outdated gun??What purpose it serves you guys, because if it does, I'm really having a hard time seeing it!!

Ok, just forget all these, forget all these 'stupid, emotional rants' of questions.Just show me one merit, one good reason for retaining an outdated gun??Just......just show me one freaking advantage a rifled gun holds over a smooth barrel one, just freaking one and I promise I'll stop my 'rants' once and for all.
PS - Please do not bring in the small arms or heavy machine guns or AAA or tube artillery to justify your views, because we are talking about tank guns here.

You speak as if that is some achievement, beating a round by an inch, which was designed way back in the early 80s!!Actually, we aren't even sure if that is true since the MkI penetrator is actually much shorter than the BM 42 penetrators!!
By the way, BM 42 is the designation for the penetrator where as the actual round, which you are reffering, is designated as 3BM 44, just as the BM 42M being the designation of the penetrator used in the 3BM 44M Lekalo rounds.
Now coming back to Arjun's ammo, there is no way the old MkI could achieve 500+ mm penetration at a distance of 2000 meter at 0 degree vertical angle, it's pretty much impossible.And before anyone decides to post the ARDE posters, I've already seen them, so please don't bother, I know what they have gotta to say and I just don't buy it!!Why - because as a general rule of thumb, a round's penetration value will always be 10-15% lower than the actual length of the rod itself and the rod in the MkI is at best 380 mm long, so it's practically impossible for it to achieve something like what's been claimed....................unless, our guys in the ARDE has managed to develop some miracle heavy alloy, straight out of some science fiction book.Heck, by that standard, MkI isn't even at the early 80's level!!
Both the Mango and Pronit (aka IMI CL MkII) packs longer rods with higher L: D ratio than our MkI does, yet they barely achieve 500 mm at 2000 meter at a muzzle velocity of around 1700 meter/second, so I don't see how on earth the existing round, with a shorter, fatter, lighter and slower moving rod can achieve the same level of performance!!After all, it's not some magic we are talking about, are we??

And as for the supposed MkII, even that would fare little better, as I've already pointed out, simply because again, its vastly shorter and fatter (thicker would be the right term, I know) penetrator rod, compared to even the Chinese APFSDS rounds, which by the way aren't that much impressive themselves!!So yeah, Arjun having better firepower than, I don't know, anything out there, anything of relevance that is, would be simply akin to stretching the facts too far, I mean really really ridiculously far.................and that's saying something!!

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In case anyone wanted to talk outside Arjun MK2, Take your discussion here :

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/threads/indian-army-armored-vehicles.5240/