Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

methos

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if you think so please post the Arjun turret and LEO turret sideviews with dimensions and source
The Arjun's turret (incl. external storage) is 4.85 m according to the scale drawing from Bharat Rakshak. The Leopard 2's turret already used on the first serial tanks produced in November 1979 is 4.945 m long according to Spielberger.


What source you have to say it is not like that in Arjun any source?
Your behaviour to ask for sources, but not being able to present even a single one for your claims is really annoying. Have you any source that there is the 2,500 mm space at the front to the commander's seat or that there is 650 to 800 mm space at the main sight? No, you haven't! Instead your baseless claims even contradict with the available information as measurements on the drawing from Bharat Rakshak, measurements made by militarysta on photographs and measurements done on dejawolf's 3-D model show.


In the bluemango screenshot below the better part of the gunner seat seems to be behind the GAP between the main sight cutaway and the gun covering plate,
Why don't you watch the video from BlueMangoFilms, where the location of the gunner's sight (and the lack of an extra armour block behind it) can be seen? Why did you not know the position of the gunner's seat, if there is the video from BlueMangoFilms.
The fact that you want to use the film as source is like a creationist citing science as proof for something :facepalm:

is it consistent with the drawings above?
It is all marked in the image with colors, you would see that the gunner's seat does fit as does the breech block.

So we are yet to see the photos of operational model inside, and we don't know whether the Arjun that was shown in blue mango film is prototype or operational one.
:facepalm:
Just watch the film... they used multiple Arjuns there including operational ones.


and we don't even know if it belong to Tank ex or the discarded old prototype of 40 ton 100 mm gun Arjun's
Maybe you should compare the sights to that of an operational Arjun and notice how the location and relation of thermal image sight and day sight fit.


It is quite possible that the main sight would have been updated to latest level as IA won't take decade old sights on new tanks
They did so with gun, engine, tranmission, etc.


Do you have any proof to contradict this?
Do you have ANY proof?
 
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ersakthivel

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@ersakthivel and @Dejawolf, stop fighting.


@Dejawolf, can you please post a straight line projection instead of a perspective projection of your model. I am looking at the same image (top) I have posted here. It would be nice if the focal axis is horizontal to the ground and orthogonal to the side of the turret.

Thanks!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/HeadAnthropometry.JPG



pmaitra,
In the link above human head average measurements are given,

In that table the height of the human head from chin to skull is given as 23.2 mm for 50 percent of males in item no-14.



In the picture posted above 1.7143 is the ratio of this human head height to the Tc seat head rest behind him at a point close to the left side edge of the head rest.

So the height of the head rest is 23.2/ 1.7143= 13. 53 mm,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/HeadAnthropometry.JPG

In the picture below the ratio of the [horizontal distance between the back of the TC head rest ] / [height of the Tc seat head rest is ] = 95

So 95 x 13.53 = 1294 mm



So it is beyond any doubt that the distance between the TC seat back rest and the inside opening for the vision block above gunner main sight eye piece is 1294 mm approx





In the picture above , In the same way the ratio of [ distance from front tip of the turret(excluding the gun cover plate) to the pivot base of the hatch cover ] / [ distance from tip of the turret (excluding the gun cover plate) to for hatch cutaway ] is 3.14 .

In the image below distance from front tip of the turret(excluding the gun cover plate) to the pivot base of the hatch cover is 2250

so 2250 / 3.14 = 716 mm is the gap for the hatch cutaway.

.

So 1294=216= 2010 mm that is ,

SO 2500 mm -2000 =500 mm is the LOS for main sight in the prototypes versions shown in blue mango film.

Also in the picture below the height of the roof top vision block opening is at least 200 mm below the inside turret roof,because this small rectangular opening for light is in line with the bottom of the vision block over Tc head.

ofcourse the roof top vision block is located on the turret top sloping towards the front,

But at the point of roof top vision block the slope is very small far less than 200 mm, See here in the picture below,



So this small slope cannot justify the position of the roof top vision block opening inside the crew compartment at a height 200 mm below the turret roof.

SO it you magnify the image below close to 400 percent you can clearly see the inside opening of the vision block is cut on a slanting armor wall.

And this slanting armor wall extends much further after the opening for the light, look at the photo below,
above the orange or yellow colored dial box with black buttons

We can see that here in the photo below as a white downward hanging slab wee below the turret roof level on which a red wire type strip is sticking out.




So there is some armor even after the opening for the roof top vision block,

Another crucial point is close to 30 percent of the height of the vision block is in front of the close to 50 mm (need clarification)thick turret roof plate.

So LOS will definitely be the same as that of the LEo as 640 mm for this A1 section.

I have no doubts about it because it is mostly modelle on Leo.



I don't want to argue with any foul mouthed guy about this subject any more, So you and Kunal can check the measurements and give the verdict.

Please post your opinion.
 
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ersakthivel

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@Kunal Biswas

@sayareakd

Sir please check the above post no-262 and give your opinion ,

as there is no point in dragging this single issue for hundred pages.

Interestingly, all these flaws were discussed at this thread before 2012 expo ..

And personally i was concern about flaws specially

1. large mantel.
2. FCS location.
3. Fuel tank at frontal chassis.

Its quite satisfying to know from the mouth of the engg from Arjun Program, The following answers =======>>

1. Its large mantel was requirement and something with IA tactics in thar desert specially engaging enemy at higher depression from above sand dunes..

2. He said Yes, there is no composite Armour behind FCS but metallurgy of plates are thicker composition and harder..
3. Yes, there is composite Armour in hull before the fuel tanks, Fuel used is diesel ..

========================

I also found that Arjun and tank ex dont use similar Kanchan armors, EX used a different form of Kanchan Armour so does T-90S and T-72M1, But material used can be same in all ..

Kanchan is available in many forms, there are designation for them which is not public..

So it the metallurgy of the portion behind the main sight is different y we can multiply the LOS by a factor of 1.3 to 1.8

So any way the RHA for LOS behind main sight is close to 1000 mm, even for the prototypes ,


Also what we see on the front is covering plate for the gun, And mantlet plate is close to 400 to 500 behind the covering plate is production line photos , So if better metallurgy is used here protection will also be substantially more than the normal RHA calculation.
 
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militarysta

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Both draw in the same scale (I had rescaled Arjun draw to the same scale as Leo-2A4 draw.).






PS.the common pont is turret base line, not track or hull. The aim was to compare turret dimension, not whole tank!
 
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militarysta

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And Yes, in arjun end of backplate is in the same place when in Leo-2 is additional turret roof periscope for loader. But in Leo-2 is in HALF of the armour cavity (circa 325mm) and in Arjun is in the end. And LEo-2A4 have smaller EMES-15 sight block then Arjun sight. More or less - again - LOS after main sight in Arjun is half or less then half LOS after main sight in leo-2A4.
 

ersakthivel

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And Yes, in arjun end of backplate is in the same place when in Leo-2 is additional turret roof periscope for loader. But in Leo-2 is in HALF of the armour cavity (circa 325mm) and in Arjun is in the end. And LEo-2A4 have smaller EMES-15 sight block then Arjun sight. More or less - again - LOS after main sight in Arjun is half or less then half LOS after main sight in leo-2A4.
I have pin pointed the inside opening of roof top vision block in the post no-262 , so there is no meaning in saying," end of backplate is in the same place when in Leo-2 is additional turret roof periscope for loader".

Even that 500 mm LOS is taken from the back edge of the TC seat , because I don't want any lower measurement than this challenging it here,

If we use the front surface of the TC seat head rest as 2500 mark(it is true in reality ) then LOS will come above 600 mm

If you can not refute the logic behind the points raised in post no-262 above ,

there is no meaning in any of your estimation of LOS of Arjun

with obscure comparison with LEO (and that too with no dimensions ) for any practical purpose,
 
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Kunal Biswas

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Re: Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT)

The tank is design as per GSQR, Needless to say anything more ..

Its the other way around, let it be me, @sayareakd Sir, @shuvo@y2k10 all three have rejected your measurements who were actually on Arjun MK1, Hence our participation is no longer here..

You are stuborn to admit you are wrong in many ways, It is your issue..

======================

Pixal measurement of yours are just approx to some extend, Already proven wrong when you measured Saya Sir height..
IA has raised problems with almost every issue with Arjun except for front armor, So if they have issues with the weak front armor, then you wont find change front armor on the main sight side in MK-2 version.



It also appears that DRDO dont have any issues with armor at the front near the main sight.

 
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militarysta

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with obscure comparison with LEO (and that too with no dimensions ) for any practical purpose,
:bplease:
two dimension visible from Arjun draw and eight on Leo-2A4 factory draw is indeed "no dimensions"
:rofl:

You have four draws whit compare Leo-2A4 and Arjun draw. One whit turrets only (and yes, Arjun turret is no longer is it's main part then leo-2A4 turret), and 3 other draws - eacht whit diffrent transparency to better show Arjun or leo-2A4 draw.
You have no point against this, you are unable to made eny even simmilar to this draw, you have no point and not right (true) in this discussion :)
You faild again.


And when is ending armour after main sight is clearly visible on Arjun Mk.I interior pictures. It's before gunner head. Again - you faild :D
 

ersakthivel

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:bplease:
two dimension visible from Arjun draw and eight on Leo-2A4 factory draw is indeed "no dimensions"
:rofl:

You have four draws whit compare Leo-2A4 and Arjun draw. One whit turrets only (and yes, Arjun turret is no longer is it's main part then leo-2A4 turret), and 3 other draws - eacht whit diffrent transparency to better show Arjun or leo-2A4 draw.
You have no point against this, you are unable to made eny even simmilar to this draw, you have no point and not right (true) in this discussion :)
You faild again.


And when is ending armour after main sight is clearly visible on Arjun Mk.I interior pictures. It's before gunner head. Again - you faild :D
Look carefully at the composite armor cavity for LEO in the pic below

If we take the crew hole dia to be around 500 mm, then the cavity for composite armor behind the rectangular opening for roof top vision block is just 60 or 70 mm in comparison,

You have posted already that the the LOS for this section in LEO is 640 mm. If all dimensions being same between LEO and Arjun turret then if we deduct the 60 mm from 640 mm we get 580 mm.

So LOS behind main sight for Arjun must be minimum 580 mm even if there is no extra armor block after the roof top vision block,

You cannot deny this Ok?

So if we


 

militarysta

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If all dimensions being same between LEO and Arjun turret then if we deduct the 60 mm from 640 mm we get 580 mm.

So LOS behind main sight for Arjun must be minimum 580 mm even if there is no extra armor block after the roof top vision block,

You cannot deny this Ok?

So if we
No, becouse not all dimensions are the same between LEO and Arjun turret!
EMES-15 main sight is smaller in Leo-2A4 then in Arjun.
Armour cavity after main sight in Leo-2A4 is twice thick then armour after main sight in Arjun.
Arjun turret is the same lenght but more width, etc.
Again - you fail.
 

ersakthivel

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No, becouse not all dimensions are the same between LEO and Arjun turret!
EMES-15 main sight is smaller in Leo-2A4 then in Arjun.
We are talking about the CAVITY FOR MAIN SIGHT. IT IS THE SAME FOR BOTH

I can give proof of your own draws submitted in this forum which simply states that the distance from front turrret tip and the roof top vision block is 1350 mm.

you can't deny it.

Shall I post the drawing of yours?
Armour cavity after main sight in Leo-2A4 is twice thick then armour after main sight in Arjun.

Don't dodge, we are talking LOS and the figure for Arjun is just 60 mm less than the 640 mm for LE0---- A1 - is 640 mm for LEo .
You can not escape.
Arjun turret is the same lenght but more width, etc.
Again - you fail.
The distance between the front tip of the turret and the end of roof top vision block is is written as 1230 mm by you,

Post in your own words what is the same distance in Arjun ? It is about 1300 mm plus if I am correct,

Since LEO has only another additional 60 or 70 mm gap,

in armor cavity for LOS behind this roof top vision block if we deduct this 60 mm from 640 mm we can get 580 mm minimum ,

I think you can not refute this estimate in any way ,Isn't it?



The distance marked as 1230,5 in LEO is

about 1250 in ARJUN , I have your own posts as proof for that,

In the post -262 it is clear that the back wall of the hatch cutaway is 716 mm from the tip of the front turret,

So 1250-716= close to 530 mm even with no small extra armor block behind the main sight for Arjun.

Since the roof top vision block is exactly midway between the turret tip and the pivot base for the crew hatch cover . 2500/2 is 1250 mm correct.



 
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methos

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Post in your own words what is the same distance in Arjun ? It is about 1300 mm plus if I am correct,

Since LEO has only another additional 60 or 70 mm gap,

in armor cavity for LOS behind this roof top vision block if we deduct this 60 mm from 640 mm we can get 580 mm minimum ,
Can't you understand that the armour block in the Arjun is differently shaped? That as dozen of photographs and the whole video from BlueMangoFilms show is not above the head of the gunner as in case of the Leopard 2 and hence the whole comparision you want to enforce know is absolutely stupid...
 

ersakthivel

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Can't you understand that the armour block in the Arjun is differently shaped? That as dozen of photographs and the whole video from BlueMangoFilms show is not above the head of the gunner as in case of the Leopard 2 and hence the whole comparision you want to enforce know is absolutely stupid...
All those photos have been discussed with ratios and measurement here,

And I don't remember you contributing a single measurement to the discussion, So it is clear you don't know wht you are talking about. Get this crucial fact below into your mind before giving genius summary

Armor block of ARJUN is differently shaped to give ADDITIONAL armor thickness besides the 540 mm specified above,

not to provide lesser than this 560 mm visible on the turret roof top


You have a knack of diverting the thread when I catch some one by the scruff of neck,

But never post detailed drawing or any measurement , WHY?

What is your agenda here, simply to confuse others?

You don't contribute any measurement, but ask totally irrelevant questions,

What is your purpose?

we don't need any more clowns in this circus, this circus has got enough already,

So don't post stupid four line summaries pretending to be a know all. If you got anything contribute drawing with measurement and then we can argue about it.That is what this thread is for. not to determine whose three line judgement summary is best.

Thanks
 
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ersakthivel

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No, becouse not all dimensions are the same between LEO and Arjun turret!
EMES-15 main sight is smaller in Leo-2A4 then in Arjun.
Armour cavity after main sight in Leo-2A4 is twice thick then armour after main sight in Arjun.
Arjun turret is the same lenght but more width, etc.
Again - you fail.


take a good look at the first picture,

You draw one red vertical line marking the left hand side edge of the gunner seat,

Then why didn't you draw another vertical line upwards bordering the right hand side edge of the gunner's seat?

Inconvenient perhaps?

The reason may be if you would have done that it would have clearly shown the gunner's head to be NOT RIGHT BEHIND THE MAIN SIGHT AS YOU FALSELY CLAIMED,BUT IN THE SPACE BETWEEN MAIN SIGHT AND THE GUN COVERING PLATE AS i CLAIMED
 
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methos

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You draw one red vertical line marking the left hand side edge of the gunner seat,
:facepalm:
He did draw another red vertical line, just in the part of the image right to that, where the turret front face is much better to see.


And I don't remember you contributing a single measurement to the discussion, So it is clear you don't know wht you are talking about. Get this crucial fact below into your mind before giving genius summary
That must be an early case of Alzheimer then. But just to show who clearly doesn't know what he is talking about here is a short summary:
- You believed that the hull length (excluding the gun overhang and fuel barrels) is 10.64 meters, which is the total length of the tank. A clear way to see that you have never seen any tank in real life (or that you have absolutely no idea of dimensions).
- You used an image with a lot of perspective distortion, scaled it completely wrong, copied it onto the drawing from BR and then claimed it would illustrate the turret layout much better, despite the vision blocks being way more than 30% larger in your rescaled photograph; at the same time, you whine about dejawolf and STGN using images not taken from the perfect perspective, even though they show that the error is just <5%.
- You claimed that it would be possible to gain a protection of 1,000 mm RHAe with an steel armour block of limited dimensions, showing that you have no idea about how modern steel armour looks.
- You claimed that the Arjun's turret would be much longer than the Leopard 2 turret, despite it being in fact shorter.
- You posted an image of the EMES-15 sight and claimed that it would be the Arjun's. After I corrected you, you pretended to have been aware of that fact, which you never stated prior.
- You claimed that the width of a human head was about 1 feet.
- You claimed that the gunner would be seated behind the main gun, making loading impossible and killing the gunner via gun recoil.
- You completely fail at even looking at pictures and identifying what can be seen there. You use randomly pulled up numbers (like 600 mm for a hatch cover, or 2,500 mm distance for reaching the end of the commander's seat, which is in both the BR drawing and dejawolfs model just 2,250 mm).
- Your formatting and multi-posting would have gotten you banned in every other forum I know.

Armor block of ARJUN is differently shaped to give ADDITIONAL armor thickness besides the 540 mm specified above,
There is no ADDITIONAL armour block. Got that? Here we see your additional armour block:





I know that you apparently are incapale of using a modern photoshop programm, but please mark the armour block you see there.


But never post detailed drawing or any measurement , WHY?
I did initially do this, but after seeing that you are nothing but a troll I leave that to the people who like to waste much effort for nothing, like dejawolf and militarysta. But you never did a proper drawing or measurement... so "WHY?".


What is your agenda here, simply to confuse others?
This is your agenda. You did so several times, once you got proven wrong, you simply ignore the results and start another fight about a different value. First you argued with the hatch, then with the location of the gunner, then with some non-exisiting slope you saw in the armour (because the photograph was taken from an angle) and then you started arguing with the seat of the commander.
Everybody can see this just by looking in the Arjun thread.


we don't need any more clowns in this circus, this circus has got enough already,
I am not a clown, but you are doing a great job as one.
 

ersakthivel

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:facepalm:
He did draw another red vertical line, just in the part of the image right to that, where the turret front face is much better to see.

Really???

Don't you understand the question?

What is the use of the red lines in the second picture if we can not see the gunner seat at all?

Why doesnot militarysta draw that red line in the first picture itself ,

For a change you can try that and post,

or I will draw the red line and post it tomorrow for you to understand that,

This is what I think it is useless to talk to you,

The question I put is not to you,
But to the guy who drew those lines, Why are you taking it? Can't milarysta answer it?

That must be an early case of Alzheimer then. But just to show who clearly doesn't know what he is talking about here is a short summary:
- You believed that the hull length (excluding the gun overhang and fuel barrels) is 10.64 meters, which is the total length of the tank. A clear way to see that you have never seen any tank in real life (or that you have absolutely no idea of dimensions).
- You used an image with a lot of perspective distortion, scaled it completely wrong, copied it onto the drawing from BR and then claimed it would illustrate the turret layout much better, despite the vision blocks being way more than 30% larger in your rescaled photograph; at the same time, you whine about dejawolf and STGN using images not taken from the perfect perspective, even though they show that the error is just <5%.
- You claimed that it would be possible to gain a protection of 1,000 mm RHAe with an steel armour block of limited dimensions, showing that you have no idea about how modern steel armour looks.
- You claimed that the Arjun's turret would be much longer than the Leopard 2 turret, despite it being in fact shorter.
- You posted an image of the EMES-15 sight and claimed that it would be the Arjun's. After I corrected you, you pretended to have been aware of that fact, which you never stated prior.
- You claimed that the width of a human head was about 1 feet.
- You claimed that the gunner would be seated behind the main gun, making loading impossible and killing the gunner via gun recoil.
- You completely fail at even looking at pictures and identifying what can be seen there. You use randomly pulled up numbers (like 600 mm for a hatch cover, or 2,500 mm distance for reaching the end of the commander's seat, which is in both the BR drawing and dejawolfs model just 2,250 mm).
- Your formatting and multi-posting would have gotten you banned in every other forum I know.

Well you must have scored very high on creative essay writing ,

giving proxy attendance to your friends who are not present in the class ,

and a big zero in 5th grade geometry lessons


You also seem to have poor memory and unable to remember what was told to you in my previous posts,

Those were not claims, Those were general statements made in countering some of the outlandish and stupid claims made by some people when I don't know much about Arjun and tanks in general,

When they were corrected by Kunal and Pmaitra , I acepted that and checked them with photo comparison as well,

i did not suggest lets use chinese metric system as you once slyly tried justify a stupid claim.

There is no ADDITIONAL armour block. Got that? Here we see your additional armour block:





I know that you apparently are incapale of using a modern photoshop programm, but please mark the armour block you see there.


All I am incapable of is modern photochor, and no photoshop is needed to know when some one is farting total BS.

Once again this is not the military photos and albums thread , If there are no comparison or dimensions or explanations these photos are of no use,

So next time please post them in the military photos thread,

Read post no-5611 in ARJUN MBT thread to know about the armor block.
[/IMG]


And all we need is plain eyes to see the block not any tank expert photochor.

Thank you ,
I did initially do this, but after seeing that you are nothing but a troll I leave that to the people who like to waste much effort for nothing, like dejawolf and militarysta. But you never did a proper drawing or measurement... so "WHY?".


Initially or sequentially or finally you posted not a grain of useful data about Arjun and you never will.

Because you don't even know the height of 3.03 meters include the gun height,
because you are not willing to acknowledge simple truths and instead asking chinese face width based measurements,
This is your agenda. You did so several times, once you got proven wrong, you simply ignore the results and start another fight about a different value. First you argued with the hatch, then with the location of the gunner, then with some non-exisiting slope you saw in the armour (because the photograph was taken from an angle) and then you started arguing with the seat of the commander.
Everybody can see this just by looking in the Arjun thread.




I am not a clown, but you are doing a great job as one.
So further detailed discussions about technical specs of Arjun like the one above can be had in chit chat thread and not here,

or,

We can have this discussion in either one of the two threads,

it is not proper to cut and paste same stuff over and above in both the threads,

So please carry the same discussion in ARJUN MBT thread only.

As there is no mk-2 photos or drawings or released it is improper to discuss the stuff here.


Thanks.
 
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ersakthivel

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WIP of arjun main sight:


In the picture below we can see the downward hanging white armor slab above the orange dial box ,

On the side of this white block a thin red strip like metal is sticking out and we can see the rest of the roof at a higher level(the darkened area to the top and right side of the white block).

The red strip itself indicates the difference in height in arjun roof level coupled with 200 mm below the roof level opening of the roof top vision block light i and above the gunner's eyepiece.

If only experts can shed some light on what this white block above the yellow or orange dial box and why it is there behind the inside turret front wall exactly behind the main sight

and where the white rectangular box with blue optics is mounted

it will be of great help.

Because it is plain and clear that this blue optic like stuff is fixed on the side of the white column not the roof,


and we can even clearly see the grease mark like stain originating from the red metal stripe and coming towards the blue optic box,

Surely the black stain like line is not hanging in the air and the blue optic like stuff on the white rectangular box is not mounted on the roof,

So please draw where you will put

1. the red metal strip

2. White rectangular box with blue optic in it,

3. And the surface on which the balck stain is located.



So why is tank expert community so reticent in explaining the above features, I am raising these points the hundredth times in this thread and Arjun Vs T-90 thread,

But every time the stock reply is "I am seeing phantoms where none exists", which is no expert speak at all.



We can have this discussion in either one of the two threads,

it is not proper to cut and paste same stuff over and above in both the threads,

So please carry the same discussion in ARJUN MBT thread only.

As there is no mk-2 photos or drawings or released it is improper to discuss the stuff here.


Thanks.
 
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Dejawolf

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So why is tank expert community so reticent in explaining the above features, I am raising these points the hundredth times in this thread and Arjun Vs T-90 thread,
.
because you brought this up 5 minutes ago. and because it has zero impact on the main facts. it is the FCS computer and GPS which
proves you wrong.

the red metal strip is not metal, but plastic, and just strips to keep the cables attached to the roof in place.
the blue optics, wtf has this to do with anything, and the black "stain" is a cable.
 
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ersakthivel

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because you brought this up 5 minutes ago. and because it has zero impact on the main facts. it is the FCS computer and GPS which
proves you wrong.

the red metal strip is not metal, but plastic, and just strips to keep the cables attached to the roof in place.
the blue optics, wtf has this to do with anything, and the black "stain" is a cable.
That is No. All the three items are on the plane perpendicular to the plane on which orange gunner's box is located..

It has full impact on TRUE PROFESSIONAL TANK EXPERT COMMUNITY.

I did not bring this up 5 minutes ago,

I brought them up months ago in Arjun MBT thread from page -300 onwards, and you gave the same answer all the time.

So if you are not willing to answer, go ahead,

But like a true pro write one sentence above your model.


All the LOS estimate is based on the 1990 India- today pics

and

this model has nothing to do with the even the prototype shown in Blue mango film , let alone operational Arjun.

Then I will never quote you again.

because I have no desire to disturb your creative work.Because it is a big waste of time arguing further along this line.

Thanks,
 
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