Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II

[Swiftfarts]

Discussed multiple times before. See old posts.

Also Arjun has effectively been killed off. So no point.

What upgrade you would have liked to see in it if it go back to drawing board ? it has been effectivily killed off for a reason in my opinion.

 

[Bleh]

What upgrade you would have liked to see in it if it go back to drawing board ? it has been effectivily killed off for a reason in my opinion.

None.
Arjun order would have been viable 15-years-ago right after comperative trials, instead of another batch of cramped, inaccurate, exploding deathtraps in 2007.

Right now I'd rather have the available FMBT turret mounted on TankEx hull (with hydropneumatic suspension & rubbered tracks & aluminium alloy wheels), to make a TankEx2... That way we have logistical commonality with present fleet, while also meeting their 4-crew 50-ton fantasy.

 

[ArgonPrime]

The Type 99A 125mm APFSDS is claimed to have a penetration of 850mm of steel armour at 2km while the DU round is claimed at 960mm.
How much of this is true?

Utter crap. Even the M 829A3 doesn't claim to have such a level of DOP.

 

[Bleh]

What upgrade you would have liked to see in it if it go back to drawing board ?

I thought I'd reply this properly.

Arjun is huge, but so is Merkava or Challenger & while I don't think we can adopt it en masse now, the flaws of the base design can surely be eliminated. The present one is above & my modified one below.

1st is slanting the roof to make room for another stacking of round in bustle (except the breech area, much like K2 or Altay).

Thickening of the mantlet upto 900mm & replacing the cast iron for composite layers, removing all frontal vulnerable spots as in above 21st century designs.

Flattened roof now thicker, protecting behind the gunner-sight, but not creating a hole on roof like Abrams etc.

(If required) thickening of upper-glacis to 900mm, by moving uppermost stowed rounds to turret.

Highly inclined lower glacis bottom to expose it less, while increasing effective ground-clearance at front wheel.

But due to its massive size, weight may rise back upto 65t despite use of composites & HNS.

 

[Swiftfarts]

I thought I'd reply this properly.

Arjun is huge, but so is Merkava or Challenger & while I don't think we can adopt it en masse now, the flaws of the base design can surely be eliminated. The present one is above & my modified one below. View attachment 64957
1st is slanting the roof to make room for another stacking of round in bustle (except the breech area, much like K2 or Altay).

Thickening of the mantlet upto 900mm & replacing the cast iron for composite layers, removing all frontal vulnerable spots as in above 21st century designs.

Flattened roof now thicker, protecting behind the gunner-sight, but not creating a hole on roof like Abrams etc.

(If required) thickening of upper-glacis to 900mm, by moving uppermost stowed rounds to turret.

Highly inclined lower glacis bottom to expose it less, while increasing effective ground-clearance at front wheel.

View attachment 64956

But due to its massive size, weight may rise back upto 65t despite use of composites & HNS.

I would love to see that rifled gun being replaced by a 130mm or above smoothbore + autoloader. driver need to move to centre.
I am going to start a thread asking members opinion about what they want to see in FMBT, if it ever happen.

 

[Bleh]

driver need to move to centre.

Unlikely. It'll reduce the size of the hull stowage vault. Leopard2 style designs not keep ammo behind commander (on turret) & behind turret basket (like M1)won't allow the downward blowoff panels. Actually forget the above. A better turret design already exists for Arjun.

Turret autoloader is definitely 1st oprion for GNMBT, given the gun crew is to climb down all the way to sit in the hull like driver.

 

[silentlurker]

The Type 99A 125mm APFSDS is claimed to have a penetration of 850mm of steel armour at 2km while the DU round is claimed at 960mm.
How much of this is true?

Literally everyone quotes this 960mm figure, but I have never seen a Chinese Military source for this.

 

[BlackViking]

Literally everyone quotes this 960mm figure, but I have never seen a Chinese Military source for this.

Info warfare

 

[silentlurker]

Chinese Military source

 

[ArgonPrime]

Literally everyone quotes this 960mm figure, but I have never seen a Chinese Military source for this.

It was all due to a mix up by some guy from Sino Defence who confused the DOP of their 125mm HEAT ammo with that of their APFSDS rounds. Otherwise, not even the M 829A3 doesn't provide that level of armor penetration.

 

[Swiftfarts]

It was all due to a mix up by some guy from Sino Defence who confused the DOP of their 125mm HEAT ammo with that of their APFSDS rounds. Otherwise, not even the M 829A3 doesn't provide that level of armor penetration.

Chinese Military source

it's actual capabilities are probably 800mm max, could be higher depends upon many things.

since we know dimension of M829A3.

Using value from above , we can can calculate it's DOP.

Segment DU rod estimated DOP > 745mm.

Break off tip with 173mm DOP ( this part will torqued by ERA like K 5 during Penetration).


• M829A4 DOP can also be calculated.

856mm estimated DOP for DU rod and...

178mm for the break off tip.

With certain value changes and bias... Pen for M829A3 can go upwards of 900mm easily while for M829A4 it could be upward of 1000mm+.

 

[ArgonPrime]

it's actual capabilities are probably 800mm max, could be higher depends upon many things.

What, you mean the Chinese APFSDS round??!! No way, their carousels do not have the room even nearly sufficient enough to house rounds with penetrators of necessary length. And besides, I've been hearing about 960mm crap since forever, no way they could have achieved such a feat back then.

 

[Swiftfarts]

What, you mean the Chinese APFSDS round??!! No way, their carousels do not have the room even nearly sufficient enough to house rounds with penetrators of necessary length. And besides, I've been hearing about 960mm crap since forever, no way they could have achieved such a feat back then.

no no...i mean M829A3, my bad . Chinese do not have anything above 700mm at best.

 

[ArgonPrime]

no no...i mean M829A3, my bad . Chinese do not have anything above 700mm at best.

Ok, I see.

 

[BlackViking]

no no...i mean M829A3, my bad . Chinese do not have anything above 700mm at best.

what about India? I am not sure but DRDO developed FSAPDS has a penetration of 500mm at 2km. this is much more worse than the Chinese.

 

[ArgonPrime]

what about India? I am not sure but DRDO developed FSAPDS has a penetration of 500mm at 2km. this is much more worse than the Chinese.

Yep, our latest kinetic rounds are of late 80s' level at best. Oh and by the way, the correct term is APFSDS, not FSAPDS.

 

[NAMICA]

what about India? I am not sure but DRDO developed FSAPDS has a penetration of 500mm at 2km. this is much more worse than the Chinese.

Don't worry more powerful rounds are under development it's a systematic approach.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Don't worry more powerful rounds are under development it's a systematic approach.

Yeah but it's gonna take time though. And the 120mm gun of the Arjun is needed to be replaced with a smoothbore one ASAP.

 

[silentlurker]

no no...i mean M829A3, my bad . Chinese do not have anything above 700mm at best.

Pretty sure they do:
Middle round is the BTA-2 105mm, which is 704.5mm.

Bottom round looks maybe 40-50mm longer?

Top round may look longer but if you notice the plastic bracing is actually set further forwards, so it looks like the round is shifed forwards for more propellant.

 

[BlackViking]

Yep, our latest kinetic rounds are of late 80s' level at best. Oh and by the way, the correct term is APFSDS, not FSAPDS.

i know that it is APFSDS but it seems DRDO likes to use FSAPDS.