It's been a long time since I posted on this thread but I wanted to speak about the missile carrying capacity of the AMCA. As the AMCA is projected to be a fifth generation fighter, it makes more sense to first take a glance at current fifth generation aircraft such as F-22, J-20, F-35, Su-57 that are in operational service with various Airforces around the world.
1. F-22: In air-to-air configuration, the F-22 can carry a total of
8 AAM, that is
six AIM-120 AMRAAMS &
two AIM-9 Sidewinders.
View attachment 233084
2. J-20: The J-20 can carry a total of
6 AAM, that is either 4 medium/long-range AAMs in the main bay and 1 short-range missile in each side weapon bay.
View attachment 233086
3. Su-57: The amount of missiles that Su-57 can carry is the same as that of J-20 that is the Su-57 can carry
four long range AAMs and
two Short range AAMs.
View attachment 233081
4. F-35: In air to air configuration, the F-35's primary AAM is the AIM-120C, of which it can carry
4 of in its weapons bays, this is the current configuration of F-35, in the future when the newer block of F-35 comes, the F-35 will be able to carry
6 AAM courtesy "Sidekick Weopons bay", so after the newer block upgrade, F-35 will be able to carry as many missiles as J-20 and Su-57, while all three will still lag behind F-22 in terms of maximum missile capacity.
View attachment 233085
So as far fifth generation fighters are concerned, the F-22 has highest missile carrying capacity of any fifth generation fighter in existence. I have not taken J-31/J-35 or Su-75 in the comparison because I don't want to discuss about those, I don't know anything about J-31/J-35 and Su-75 is still on paper only though we do have figures for their missile load out.
So now let's speak about AMCA: So how many missiles will AMCA be able to carry internally? From what I have heard, the AMCA will be able to carry 4 to 6 missiles, but there was a source which said that the mark-1 work carry 4 AAM. To be honest, this is not bad, see the F-35 in its current configuration can carry just 4 AAM, but in subsequent block will be able to carry 6 AAM. The same can be expected from the AMCA, the AMCA Mark-2 can be expected to have a missile carrying capacity of 6 to 8 AAMs. I simply cannot find much information about the AMCA's AAM capacity/configuration. I sincerely hope that the AMCA MK-1 would be able to carry 6 AAM and the subsequent Mk-2 would be able to carry 8 AAM because for a fighter coming out in the early 2030s, even be it a fifth generation plane, anything less than 4 AAMs would be kinda unacceptable to me. Fingers crossed on this.
Unfortunately shiv aroor in his podcast had said IAF is in touch with development & can demand changes as it progresses
View attachment 247394
In current configuration: The AMCA Mk-1 will carry 4 AAM in its internal bay. In the future, likely be able to carry 6. F-35 in current configuration, can also carry 4 missiles, but after Block-IV upgrade, it will be able to carry 6 so AMCA will follow the same path as the F-35.
When designing the AMCA, I am sure the engineers designed the aircraft around the internal bay, and not the other way around. Basically you should design and build around the bay. You may design the aircraft's fuselage first and later go to design the internal bay only to find out that the bay won't be spacious enough or you may run into some other issues.
Right now, we are sure that the AMCA Mk-1 will be able to carry 4 AAM. So no discussion about the internal loadout of Mk-1. We are focusing on Mk-2.
How can a payload of 6 AAM in the Mk-2 come into the picture from the former Mk-1's 4 AAM loadout?
1. We make a miniaturised version of the Astra which will have nearly the same range as the baseline one. I am advocating something in the lines of what was done with the Brahmos NG. What is Brahmos NG? NG stands for next generation and Brahmos NG is a scaled down version of baseline brahmos but while it's scaled down, it will still have the same speed and range as baseline brahmos.
Read this excerpt from an article (I will provide link)
"The BrahMos-NG (Next Generation) will be a scaled-down variant of the current BrahMos missile. Compared to the present BrahMos, it is anticipated to be 50% lighter, three meters smaller, and have the same 290-kilometer range and Mach 3.5 speed."
In what could come as a significant boost to India’s next-generation cruise missile capability, flight testing of BrahMos-NG Indo-Russian cruise missile is expected to start before the end of 2025. BrahMos Export Director Pravin Pathak revealed this at the ongoing World Defense Show, which ends...
www.eurasiantimes.com
So I don't see why we cannot do the same with the Astra BVRAAM. We can make an Astra NG, basically a miniaturised version of the baseline Astra which will be smaller, lighter but will have the same speed and range as the original Astra.
2. We make the Bays more bigger in width, depth and length (overall size). I think the size of bay may become so large that the Airframe may have to undergo a size change. I think the basic design may be retained but the size will be increased. I mean a bigger Airframe can obviously field a larger bay. Basically what I think the AMCA MK-2 will be is basically it will have the same design as mk-1 albeit a bit larger. I can give you an example.
McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet and the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. This may help us to determine what the AMCA MK-2 will look like.
Super Hornet: It's basically an evolution of the original F/A-18 produced by the US for its military and allies to which it has been exported.
View attachment 257908
View attachment 257909
The SH brought upon several improvements and basically it's better than the baseline Hornet in every way that you can think of. Endurance, payload capacity, avionics, range etc. Sometimes bigger is always better.
This is what I think the AMCA Mk-2 will be. We will do with the AMCA MK-2 what the designers of F/A-18 SH did, basically enlarge. So AMCA Mk-2 will look visually identical to Mk-1 but it will be larger to facilitate a larger bay which in turn will facilitate more Weopons, better avionics, range etc. I think size should be increased and not try and pack each and everything in the same airframe, it will be prove to be counter productive.
3. Like originally said by many members here and even by you, we can Astra with foldable fins.
4. We can do all of the above and it will be better to do all of the above.
@Super Flanker you points are right. It seems coincidentally you & i have been like-minded.
In short, when it comes to 5th gen jets with IWB, only 4 BVR-AAMs with no CCM won't suffice, nor is it economical per sortie & fuel used. Some countries are working on both longer & shorter size AAMs & may also upgrade the engines. All present jets with IWB are huge learning lessons for us.
If F-35 & J-35 can plan for 6 AAMs so can AMCA. AMCA-TDs need to be inflated little more to add re-engineered 6 BVR-AAMs + 2 CCMs. If beyond 4 BVR-AAMs not possible then at least 2 CCMs should be added. New gen jets need new gen weapons.
1st few AMCA prototypes would probably be TD (Tech Demonstrator) like in case of LCA-TDs which cannot be compared to LCA-MK1 inducted jet. Such was the diff. b/w X-35 & F-35; YF-22 & F/A-22. FC-31 specs towards J-35 already increased.
Make corrections where required. I'm giving a "low IQ" refresher.
CTOL F-35A's stealth config weight 13.3T empty + 8.3T fuel + 6 AIM-120 (6x152=912 Kg)= 22.5 tons.
Afterburner takeoff T/W = 191.3 KN / 22.5 T = 191.3/9.8 /22.5T = 0.86
R&D going on for short missiles like MSDM, AIM-160 CUDA/SACM & Peregine, and longer range ones like AIM-260 JATM, Long-Range Engagement Weapon (LREW).
Notional Peregrine:-
FC-31V1 flew 1st, then V2 then V3/J-35. Weight & other parameters increased. V1-31001 was just TD. J-35 makers have intentions to have 6 PL-15 AAMs, may be shorter CCM also.
PL-15 - 200-250 Kg, 13'4" long, 20cm diameter, 200-300 Km range, Mach 4+
J-31 is AF version, rumored to have recently flown 1st, whose empty weight is not known. Different sources claim WS-19 engine to have 98-124.7 KN wet thrust. And videos & photos depict J-31/35 to have 6 PL-15 AAMs eventually with possibly CCMs in SWB also.
KF-21 Boramae also with F414 engines, empty weight 11.8T + 6T fuel + 4 AIM-120 (4x152=608 Kg) + future IWB 1.3 tons = 19.7 tons.
Afterburner T/W = (2x97.9 KN) / 19,7 T = 195.8/9.8 /19.7T = 1.01
FOC AMCA should try to fit in staggered 6 BVR-AAMs.
Meteor - 190 Kg, 12 ft. long, 18cm diameter, 200 km range, NEZ 60Km, Mach 4
Astr MK3 SFDR - 220 Kg, 12'8" long, 20cm diameter, 60cm wingpan, 350 Km range@20Km altitude, 190Km@8Km altitude, Mach 2-3.6 interception
MICA-IR weighs 112 Kg & 10' long, AIM-9 weighs 86 Kg * 10' long, ASRAAM & IRIT-T weigh 88 Kg & 9.5' long, PL-10 weighs 105 Kg & 10' long.
If DRDO can make 5'5" long missile like SACM/CUDA then FOC AMCA can go for SWB. IWB can also carry 4 BVR-AAMs + 4 half-CCMs.
Now AMCA's ESTIMATED empty weight 12T + 6.5T fuel + 6 BVR-AAMs (6x220=1320 Kg) = 19.8 T, rounded up to 20 T with 2 SWB-CCMs.
Afterburner T/W = (2x110 KN)/ 20 T = 220/9.8 /20 = 1.12 with new engine.
(2x98 KN)/ 20T = 196/9.8 /20 = 1 with F414 engine.
Time will tell if it proceeds like KF-21 or FC-31 or X-35. But we all know what the FOC AMCA should have & there needs to be an AHCA also for Su-30MKI replacement.
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I already mentioned long back about pushing for 6 BVR-AAMs, CCMs & AHCA.
On page 423 calculation comparison was given on thrust, payload b/w F-35 & AMCA & also mentioned that AMCA may get inflated to AHCA. If LCA MK1 can be inflated to MK2/MWF then why not AMCA, But we need engine better than F-414 obviously.
Can anyone forum members can shed light. Is IAF have a eye on SU-57 ? Because in current form it is not having any substantial tech to match F22 or F35. But we are developing EOTS and also JV with Safran for 125 KN engine. Maybe in future we will acquire SU-57 frame and integrate AMCA EW suite...
defenceforumindia.com
Page 426
Even the AAMs required newer versions cutting the fins like AIM-120-C/D.
It is AMCA not AHCA but in my personal opinion we need AHCA with custom AAMs, AGMs, ALCMs, AShMs like being developed for F-22, F-35 & 6th gen F-XX. Neg gen jet requires new gen weapons.
Sukhoi Checkmate design has also reallized longer IWB for long range missiles which will also be stealth, with folding fins.
Transonic?? That's from Mach 1- to Mach 1+ ie going from sub sonic to super sonic. Brahmos already does much better at Mach 3 throughout its flight. Sorry i used the wrong word. I meant to say the speed nearby Mach 4.
defenceforumindia.com
Example of Su-57 diagrams given & said we have to be careful while designing IWB & weapons.
Transonic?? That's from Mach 1- to Mach 1+ ie going from sub sonic to super sonic. Brahmos already does much better at Mach 3 throughout its flight. Sorry i used the wrong word. I meant to say the speed nearby Mach 4.
defenceforumindia.com
Page 427
F-16-IN(block-70/72) was offered in MMRCA with GE F-110-GE-132 engine having around 80KN dry thrust & 145KN AB thrust. It's good we rejected F-16 but perhaps instead of GE414 we could have negotiated for GE132
Page 432 - 3D artist concept of SWB. Designing MLG is important to create space for SWB, with examples of YF-22 Vs F-22 & Su-57.
btw a naval ghatak is also in the works source:hvt sir
defenceforumindia.com
Page 435
Looking at China's & global advancement, we need AMCA & AHCA both to replace MKI & other jets for a huge sub-continental country otherwise we will be facing a crunch again as we faced with LCA to MWF. Just like J-20 7J-35, again China will surprise us with its 6th gen jet(s) & supply Pak with J-20/35. Then we will be left with only AMCA in 5th gen. Hence AHCA MK1 can be an inflated AMCA & its MK2 can be with DEW.
If AMCA really needs to be "advanced" then changes in weapons quantity & quality is also required. New gen jets require new gen weapons. If stealth advantage has to be taken then only 4 BVRAAMs & zero CCMs, neither it will suffice, nor it is economical for a stealth jet & except guns no defence in dogfight.
The definition of sophisticated fighter for next 3-4 decades has rapidly upgraded as per technological advancement. There are only 2 choices - Either we can continue to lag forever just boasting about our capabilities or reduce the gap with more realistic AMCA MK2 & AHCA. All we need are 2 good engines.
Page 440
we have to inflate AMCA to AHCA if 5.5gen has to be achieved otherwise LCA-MWF delay & lessons will repeat with AMCA
Page 448
i'm among those 1st few people to talk about 6th gen AHCA bcoz a medium weight jet cannot fulfil requirements of 6th gen - more equipment, more processing, more electicity, more thrust, more stealth, more networking, more everything. EU dumped 5th gen jet bcoz they at least have Rafale & EF-2000 in last few decades but we got Rafale only now hence we need AMCA 1st which can be inflated to AHCA MK1 with other modifications.
The corruption, delays & other mistakes which happened with LCA to MWF should not be repeated with AMCA to AHCA.
If we want to close the gap with atleast EU then AMCA being our 1st stealth jet should only be a stepping stone. Do u really think just 4 AAMs are sufficient & economical for a 5th gen stealth fighter in the era of 6th gen jets?
We thought DFI was in India but being in USA doesn't bother us as it is casual techno-social site. Many of these sites i mentioned earlier including Defence . pk are also served by Cloudfare in San Francisco. Check screenshot below & search yourself to confirm.
You should have checked "about" section of my profile here. And don't forget that this kind of forums are just for time-pass, not for doing Btech, Mtech, PhD. These casual websites can be hosted by Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Hostinger, Reddit, etc, etc. Big list of Web Hosting & Cloud service providers today. Their data's physical location, who owns them & allegiance doesnt matter. I or anybody can use VPN & other Cloud tools & start a forum on any country as long as money is payed & the business terms are not violated. International news channels run sections of pages on every geography & they employ people from those geographies also.
, you have very high IQ
, you are very sensible
