AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[johnj]

Porkies wont get KAAN until it goes into serial production with Turdey's own Turdish engine, i.e. at least 10 years away. US didnt even allow American engine equipped Atak T129 helo to be sold to Pakis . So they had to buy chingchong Z-10.

Yes, if US considering to sell F35 to pak. US will more happy if Pak buys Turkie jets insisted of Chinese, the main reason why US didnt allow Turkie to sell T129 to pak, its becz they cancelled ah1z.

 

[johnj]

Su30 with AESA jamming pod (already developed) is essential otherwise J-20 and KAAN's geometrical stealth will outclass su30 anyday.

Maybe throw in some CATS warriors flying few km ahead.

Turkey gonna use kizilelma for combat teaming

Yes with a major correction. not mki, but LCA mk2 MWF with CATS can easily handle any stealth treat from Pak
MKI is a missile magnet, it struggle to counter stealth jets, one of the major reason why IAF demanding MRFA

 

[Azaad]

Which engine it would use?

Hasn't the system been designed around the
F-414 & hasn't ADA / HAL already procured a few of them long ago for fitment on prototypes ?

 

[johnj]

Hasn't the system been designed around the
F-414 & hasn't ADA / HAL already procured a few of them long ago for fitment on prototypes ?

GE supplied around 8+ engines to ADA/HAL till now for LCA mk2
AMCA F414 engine status unknown, it need a new deal, even before that, GoI wait for US Gov approval and clearance for F414 manufacturing in India, may be AMCA TD/prototype use HAL manufactured engines

 

[Chinmoy]

Hasn't the system been designed around the
F-414 & hasn't ADA / HAL already procured a few of them long ago for fitment on prototypes ?

For Tejas Mk2, Yes. Not for AMCA though.

 

[Azaad]

For Tejas Mk2, Yes. Not for AMCA though.

Right now the priority is Mk-2. I'm sure you're not arguing the AMCA Mk-1 is flying before the LCA Mk-2 . And if you're not what's the point conflating both requirements. Let's restrict our discussions to the LCA Mk-2 & its development path.

 

[Azaad]

GE supplied around 8+ engines to ADA/HAL till now for LCA mk2
AMCA F414 engine status unknown, it need a new deal, even before that, GoI wait for US Gov approval and clearance for F414 manufacturing in India, may be AMCA TD/prototype use HAL manufactured engines

Development T/L of AMCA Mk-1 is two years after development of LCA Mk-2 . This means if the Mk-2 is ready for taxi trials towards the end of 2024 you can take it that the AMCA Mk-1 will be ready for the same by end 2026. Of course this ADA T/L is dependent on Government sanction & funding. That's another story. I don't see the JV between HAL & GE coming out with a F-414 MII that soon .

 

[Chinmoy]

Right now the priority is Mk-2. I'm sure you're not arguing the AMCA Mk-1 is flying before the LCA Mk-2 . And if you're not what's the point conflating both requirements. Let's restrict our discussions to the LCA Mk-2 & its development path.

Even for Mk-2, MoU between GE and HAL has been signed just now. Deal is yet to be signed. Only once the deal is signed, fund would be released for that.

 

[Azaad]

Even for Mk-2, MoU between GE and HAL has been signed just now. Deal is yet to be signed. Only once the deal is signed, fund would be released for that.

That's for LSP & SP . We're not discussing that are we ? We're discussing CCS approval & disbursement of funds for the development of the Mk-2.

 

[johnj]

Even for Mk-2, MoU between GE and HAL has been signed just now. Deal is yet to be signed. Only once the deal is signed, fund would be released for that.

MoU for manufacture of GE engines. not for mk2.
GoI may clear AMCA TD/engine after LCA mk2 first flight. In GoI every thing happen in snail speed

 

[Chinmoy]

That's for LSP & SP . We're not discussing that are we ? We're discussing CCS approval & disbursement of funds for the development of the Mk-2.

Thats it. Unless & until the engine deal is signed, CCS approval for fund would not come.

 

[Chinmoy]

MoU for manufacture of GE engines. not for mk2.
GoI may clear AMCA TD/engine after LCA mk2 first flight. In GoI every thing happen in snail speed

Govt is not going to approve the manufacturing unless every bits are in place. DRDO/HAL can invest on their own and go on with development, but for CCS approval, they have to submit the whole paper.

 

[Azaad]

Thats it. Unless & until the engine deal is signed, CCS approval for fund would not come.

Quite frankly I fail to see how development of Mk-2 is linked to / should be linked to signing of the agreement to mfg F-414 Turbofan in India . Even if this was the case which I don't think it is , an MoU has already been concluded.

 

[Chinmoy]

Quite frankly I fail to see how development of Mk-2 is linked to / should be linked to signing of the agreement to mfg F-414 Turbofan in India . Even if this was the case which I don't think it is , an MoU has already been concluded.

If you remember, before 2016, it was a trend to commission a ship or a fighter without its weapon integration. But now, it has changed.

Similarly, now govt is not going to give approval for any project where critical foreign tech is involved unless and until the paper work is rock solid. We suffered in Tejas development because of the lackadaisical attitude of loose paper work in initial stage.

 

[Azaad]

If you remember, before 2016, it was a trend to commission a ship or a fighter without its weapon integration. But now, it has changed.

Similarly, now govt is not going to give approval for any project where critical foreign tech is involved unless and until the paper work is rock solid. We suffered in Tejas development because of the lackadaisical attitude of loose paper work in initial stage.

If what you say is true then we're going to see disbursement of funds only towards the end of next year. I don't expect the agreement between HAL & GE to be signed this year for the simple reason that the matter of seeking permissions for export of sensitive technologies requires Congress approval .

As of now there was a report some weeks back stating the procedure for filing of such permissions before Congress hasn't even begun. Once that happens , it goes to the State Department & DoD who issue clearances. It's only after that the said agreement is in place to be signed.

Add to that we're going in for elections which means from anytime in February the incumbent government can't decide on matters involving monetary implications given the model code of conduct. So if what you're saying is true then we're looking at end 2024 at the earliest or anytime in 2025.

If first flight happens in 2028 which looks likely then FOC won't happen before 2033 which again is an optimistic assessment & SP won't happen before 2036-37 whereas any delay beyond 2030 in SP of the LCA MK-2 doesn't make sense given the Chinese would be out with their 6th Gen FA in series production by the same time.

Moreover there's the issue of the AMCA Mk-1 . If the prototype of the LCA Mk-2 is ready for taxi trials by 2028 we can expect the prototype of the AMCA Mk-1 to be ready for the same by 2030-31. Add 5 yrs for FOC. That's 2035-36. We'd then go in for development of the prototype of the AMCA Mk-2 which should be out by 2039 by which time China should be flying dozens of prototypes of their 7th Gen FA & the US should've completed their studies for their 8th Gen FA program by then approaching Congress for funding with their 7th Gen FA in series production .

It's back to where we began when we started off with the LCA program because that's the amount of distance we'd have put in between our programs & the rest of the world in terms of developing fighter aircrafts.

 

[Chinmoy]

If what you say is true then we're going to see disbursement of funds only towards the end of next year. I don't expect the agreement between HAL & GE to be signed this year for the simple reason that the matter of seeking permissions for export of sensitive technologies requires Congress approval .

As of now there was a report some weeks back stating the procedure for filing of such permissions before Congress hasn't even begun. Once that happens , it goes to the State Department & DoD who issue clearances. It's only after that the said agreement is in place to be signed.

Add to that we're going in for elections which means from anytime in February the incumbent government can't decide on matters involving monetary implications given the model code of conduct. So if what you're saying is true then we're looking at end 2024 at the earliest or anytime in 2025.

If first flight happens in 2028 which looks likely then FOC won't happen before 2033 which again is an optimistic assessment & SP won't happen before 2036-37 whereas any delay beyond 2030 in SP of the LCA MK-2 doesn't make sense given the Chinese would be out with their 6th Gen FA in series production by the same time.

Moreover there's the issue of the AMCA Mk-1 . If the prototype of the LCA Mk-2 is ready for taxi trials by 2028 we can expect the prototype of the AMCA Mk-1 to be ready for the same by 2030-31. Add 5 yrs for FOC. That's 2035-36. We'd then go in for development of the prototype of the AMCA Mk-2 which should be out by 2039 by which time China should be flying dozens of prototypes of their 7th Gen FA & the US should've completed their studies for their 8th Gen FA program by then approaching Congress for funding with their 7th Gen FA in series production .

It's back to where we began when we started off with the LCA program because that's the amount of distance we'd have put in between our programs & the rest of the world in terms of developing fighter aircrafts.

Its better to be late a couple of years & then move smooth rather then stumbling on way.

 

[Azaad]

Its better to be late a couple of years & then move smooth rather then stumbling on way.

This couple of years delay every couple of years has brought us or more precisely the IAF to the state it is in today. In principle even if there were any doubts on the future of the F-414 being mfgd in India , the MoU should've cleared that .

We're weighing time against a couple of thousand crores in development here which incidentally has already been cleared by the CCS . It's only that the amount hasn't been disbursed. Which is why your statement that they're awaiting the signature on the agreement looks suspect .

 

[Tactical Doge]

F-35s are coming whether we like it or not

 

[kamaal]

F-35s are coming whether we like it or not

Nope, extra Rafale f5 may be bought soon. Our actual threat will be J20 and J31 and none of them are actual stealth jets like F22, they may try to come closer to F35. With strong irst and powerful X band awacs these can be detected at longer range.
Lets not talk about KAAN, it'll not offer RCS much lower than Rafale F5, it'll be less maneuverable and a liability in future for PAF.
IAF needs strong awacs force with powerful frontal X band radar having range of 450+ km range and S400 is already capable of detecting stealth objects at decent range. No need to fear J31 or KAAN for now.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]