AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[asianobserve]

We are already going with 2 of the options together. Kaveri work is continuing . In form of k9 and k10 indigenous engine.
Meanwhile off shelf engine are coming as f404 and f414.

France has proposed the option of hybrid engine too. That may be included depending upon what USA offers in future and where does development of k9 /k10 reaches .

Kaveri is what generation of jet engine?

 

[IndianHawk]

Kaveri is what generation of jet engine?

I don't know what you mean by generation here.
Kaveri originally was supposed to match f404 in terms of weight and thrust and fuel efficiency.

K9/k10 are derivatives which propose 90kn and 100kn engine for future. But I think now there is also k11 for 110kn future amca engine .

 

[no smoking]

Again you are back with half assed analysis .
Kaveri core is successful. The problem is in afterburner integration and overall sustained performance.

It is core which will be improved for more thrust which is well within the capability of gtre.

Yes, when India looks for a partner to help on Kaveri, the French suggestion is: replace the Kaveri with M88 core and leave the afterburner part to GTRE. That is how successful that Kaveri core is. Looks like they don't agree with you.

 

[Kchontha]

As matter of fact in order to be a successful endeavour GTRE should be sincere and should not go alone on kaveri front as they don't have any experience on such a complex matter as jet engine development and manufacturing technology. They can partnered HAL as it has experienced of manufacturing some turbofan engines and other r&d organisation in India if they could not find an experience foreign engine maker. Unfortunately that was not the case and kaveri failed and whole india fails. Besides these there was no testing facility such as test bed aircraft so they have to go to russia for testing thereby losing a lot of time, energy and money. Besides they don't have enough knowledge and know how about what material they should use for blades etc (metallurgy is very important in that case). Despite meager amount of funds they have come this far. They are in final lap so more funds should be funded and more r&d organizations should involve. So that engine for amca should be a successful one. We can't depend on others for engine if amca to be truly indigenous.

 

[IndianHawk]

Yes, when India looks for a partner to help on Kaveri, the French suggestion is: replace the Kaveri with M88 core and leave the afterburner part to GTRE. That is how successful that Kaveri core is. Looks like they don't agree with you.

It has nothing to do with kaveri core. French want to sell their core for max profit. We didn't sign the deal . Because we don't need it. That decision proves your stupidity.

 

[no smoking]

It has nothing to do with kaveri core. French want to sell their core for max profit. We didn't sign the deal . Because we don't need it. That decision proves your stupidity.

Certainly, you have the right to believe whatever you want. I just point out that French engine developer doesn't agree with you.

It is just like someone believes himself is 100% healthy while the doctors have different opinion. Who is right, who is wrong? If you ask that guy, of course he will tell you that doctors are wrong.

 

[Kchontha]

A modern turbofan engine that could power a fgfa like amca should feature the latest genre technologies including single piece bladed compressor disks, single crystal high pressure turbine blades, powder metallurgy disks, ceramic coating and composite materials. This implies that the Kaveri turbofan should be upgraded to generate 110-kN wet and 75-kN dry thrust. But then an engine of this capability will need to incorporate single crystal blade technology, integrated rotor disk and blades and super alloys of nickel and cobalt. Kaveri engine in its present form uses directionally solidified blade technology which is rather an old technology.

Not long back, Snecma offers for co-developing Kaveri engine was called off after it came to the conclusion that Snecma instead of agreeing to transfer latest genre engine technology to India had just offered the replacement of Kaveri’s Kabini core with Snecma Eco Core which was not acceptable to India as India was keen on mastering the latest genre engine technologies. Moreover, the French was trying for a backdoor entry to tejas program or lucrative indian engine market. The problem with kaveri is in its weight to thrust ratio not its core but material used. Now it is hopeful of upgrading the Kaveri engine to meet the needs of AMCA in the context of the vastly improved industrial support base in the country that the aero engine development programme had helped create. The biggest challenge ahead would be how to enhance the power of Kaveri without increasing its size and weight and through incorporating the single crystal turbine blade technology. But the reality is that GTRE is now nowhere close to developing single crystal blade technology though dmrl has announce some break through in this regard. However efforts are now on to sharpen the expertise level in the country for developing the high performance nickel and cobalt super alloys for Kaveri.
In order to give quickening impetus to the development of Kaveri engine, DRDO should look at setting up a high altitude test facility in the country. This would help obviate the dependence on the Russian facility for carrying out the high altitude tests of the engine in Russia. As it is, ISRO was able to successfully qualify the home grown cryogenic engine constituting the upper stage of the GSLV after a high altitude test facility was set up at Mahendragiri complex near to Kanyakumari.
Thus, foremost of India’s mission should be to develop the indigenous Kaveri engine with the thrust to weight ratio sufficient enough to propel Tejas or amca.

 

[Ajax01]

Certainly, you have the right to believe whatever you want. I just point out that French engine developer doesn't agree with you.

It is just like someone believes himself is 100% healthy while the doctors have different opinion. Who is right, who is wrong? If you ask that guy, of course he will tell you that doctors are wrong.

Kaveri Core Kabini is working well so GTRE wants it on the stealth UCAV program. Reportedly the only problem that Kaveri faces now is sustaining reheat thrust for longer durations. What the french did was they didn't want to give the tech (mainly materials tech) for the core and so they offered to replace it with their own core. The Indians would have to come to the french for the core every time and its buisness for them. Alas applying the brain is a rare trait.
I have seen doctors doing surgery for no reason just to get the money.

 

[Assassin 2.0]

Certainly, you have the right to believe whatever you want. I just point out that French engine developer doesn't agree with you.

It is just like someone believes himself is 100% healthy while the doctors have different opinion. Who is right, who is wrong? If you ask that guy, of course he will tell you that doctors are wrong.

According to the report submitted, Safran completes technical audit of Kaveri jet engine prototype in France
Report said that the engine had attained sufficient maturity to be integrated with an aircraft for limited envelope flight testing.

This is from doctor.
now india wants to develop much more powerful 110KN thrust engine we are seeking a partner for that engine. That's why french offer to replace core is not that interesting and they were also asking a huge amount to fix the indigenous core.
K-9 is going to be installed in drones without a afterburner.

 

[IndianHawk]

Certainly, you have the right to believe whatever you want. I just point out that French engine developer doesn't agree with you.

It is just like someone believes himself is 100% healthy while the doctors have different opinion. Who is right, who is wrong? If you ask that guy, of course he will tell you that doctors are wrong.

Don't repeat Chinese examples here. Kaveri core is already going in for ucav . Tenders are out fro building that dry kaveri engine.

BTW china has incredible corona death toll by 50% in Wuhan !! Doctors are wrong only in china. Ccp is right. Lol

 

[IndianHawk]

This is amca thread. Kaveri discussion should be continued at kaveri thread.

 

[Bleh]

From this discussion in the ORCA thread, i got a weird idea.

Moving AMCA's horizontal tailplanes forward to form canards, while making the vertical fins rotatable, that can change its angle as required... No extra surfaces to increase RCS, but reduced drag & increased lift at level flight, improved maneuverability.

Tagging @Kuntal @Chinmoy @Karthi @porky_kicker

 

[Bajirao]

From this discussion in the ORCA thread, i got a weird idea.
View attachment 46320
Moving AMCA's horizontal tailplanes forward to form canards, while making the vertical fins rotatable, that can change its angle as required... No extra surfaces to increase RCS, but reduced drag & increased lift at level flight, improved maneuverability. View attachment 46321



Tagging @Chinmoy @Karthi @porky_kicker

You are great

 

[Karthi]

From this discussion in the ORCA thread, i got a weird idea.
View attachment 46320
Moving AMCA's horizontal tailplanes forward to form canards, while making the vertical fins rotatable, that can change its angle as required... No extra surfaces to increase RCS, but reduced drag & increased lift at level flig IPht, improved maneuverability. View attachment 46321



Tagging @Kuntal @Chinmoy @Karthi @porky_kicker

But we can use tail planes and vertical stabilizer to cover up the hot engine nozzles.

 

[Bleh]

But we can use tail planes and vertical stabilizer to cover up the hot engine nozzles.

I'm not sure how... Elaborate.

It wo would be much easier to replicate something like Yak-40 or Viggen's engine cover (except it will be thrust vectors instead of thrust reversers).

 

[Shirman]

From this discussion in the ORCA thread, i got a weird idea.
View attachment 46320
Moving AMCA's horizontal tailplanes forward to form canards, while making the vertical fins rotatable, that can change its angle as required... No extra surfaces to increase RCS, but reduced drag & increased lift at level flight, improved maneuverability. View attachment 46321

This is how ORCA and eventually carrier based future fighter should have been developed. Incorporating stealth design post 2025 is very much essential. I was searching a post of @Kunal Biswas Sir's Aero India 2015 video in which a private Start up booth showcased shape shifting drone wing
It was labeled as 6th Gen Fighter tec. Those guys should be called up and roped in by HAL for vertical rotable fins. They can be easily scaled up for fighter sized 5th Gen aircraft.

Tagging @Kuntal @Chinmoy @Karthi @porky_kicker

This

 

[Shirman]

Sorry everybody I replied in Bleh's quote. Coming and replying after a long time.

 

[no smoking]

Don't repeat Chinese examples here. Kaveri core is already going in for ucav . Tenders are out fro building that dry kaveri engine.

No, the development of modified Kaveri core is still in the process. Whether it can be fit into UCAV finally is still a question. And installing it on a UCAV doesn't prove it is sucessful, after all unmaned plane requires lot less on engine than manned jet.

[ -- OT removed -- ]

 

[HariPrasad-1]

As matter of fact in order to be a successful endeavour GTRE should be sincere and should not go alone on kaveri front as they don't have any experience on such a complex matter as jet engine development and manufacturing technology. They can partnered HAL as it has experienced of manufacturing some turbofan engines and other r&d organisation in India if they could not find an experience foreign engine maker. Unfortunately that was not the case and kaveri failed and whole india fails. Besides these there was no testing facility such as test bed aircraft so they have to go to russia for testing thereby losing a lot of time, energy and money. Besides they don't have enough knowledge and know how about what material they should use for blades etc (metallurgy is very important in that case). Despite meager amount of funds they have come this far. They are in final lap so more funds should be funded and more r&d organizations should involve. So that engine for amca should be a successful one. We can't depend on others for engine if amca to be truly indigenous.

It should have happened earlier. Anyhow, this has not happened for a long long times. So let us hope that we invest enough to get our indig engine. We have recently developed many critical technologies. We should aim to make our own engine operational between 2025 to 2030. I am sure that we can make it happen. Now new fan design is freezes. Thermal coating is developed. New afterburner is made. Many building blocks are in place now. Integrating them should get us a very good engine. A sustainable effort is required now. As once said, we have done 70 %work. 30% more need to be done. Let us do it.

 

[Bajirao]

At the end of the all speculation of jv or, internationalcollab. India will finally go complete indigenously for a new engine and maybe we will be successfull in that effort but only after wasting 3-4 year time for begging and doubting our capability.........indian should stop doubting it's capability immidietly not sometimes later.........