AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Armand2REP]

None other than USA military allies have 22nm or below foundries. China, has now started such foundry but it is yet to achieve perfection.

For military applications it doesn't matter what the dye size is. The Royal Navy is still running on Windows XP.

 

[no smoking]

Developing these high end machinery is the first step in developing military items. So,China, Russia, india all will first develop these things before going to develop military gadget.

Again, who tell you that? Nobody only develops military gadget AFTER developing these things.

There is a reason why russia is able to make Su35. Su57 or China is able to make J10, J20 plane- it is because these countries also have the tooling. Similarly, india also has developed the needed tools.

Well, it is not you don't have these tooling, it is that your tooling is not as good as theirs. Generally, Russia and Chinese machinery are one class below western's counterparts. You can still build Su-57 and J-20, but your Su-57 and J-20 are simply bigger, heavier and inferior than their F-22 and F-35 in mechanical components.

It is not some random commercial tooling from west as these are given under sttrict condition of non-military sue and no-reverse engineering. Checks are also made regularly by USA inspectors to verify

Commercial tooling is not good enough for military industry. Russian and Chinese own machinery of military industry is better than that. But these production equipment designed and built specially for military purpose make no economic sense. That is why no other country (including India) does the same thing.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

Again, who tell you that? Nobody only develops military gadget AFTER developing these things

Well, it is not you don't have these tooling, it is that your tooling is not as good as theirs. Generally, Russia and Chinese machinery are one class below western's counterparts. You can still build Su-57 and J-20, but your Su-57 and J-20 are simply bigger, heavier and inferior than their F-22 and F-35 in mechanical components.

Commercial tooling is not good enough for military industry. Russian and Chinese own machinery of military industry is better than that. But these production equipment designed and built specially for military purpose make no economic sense. That is why no other country (including India) does the same thing.

These are your opinion without any basis. Why do you think west is above others? In semiconductor, the scale is in nanometre and hence there is a difficulty in getting precision. But in mechanical items, the scale is microns and we have laser cutting for that.

Precision tooling for F22 was made in 1990s. the precision level of F22 can be made by others in 2010-20. However advanced west may have been, others can catch up over time. So, not really logical to state that India does not have precision tooling for AMCA or stealth planes. Similarly, Russia, China also have the needed tools.

Don't simply state that only west can have tools while others can't

 

[Trololo]

These are your opinion without any basis. Why do you think west is above others? In semiconductor, the scale is in nanometre and hence there is a difficulty in getting precision. But in mechanical items, the scale is microns and we have laser cutting for that.

Precision tooling for F22 was made in 1990s. the precision level of F22 can be made by others in 2010-20. However advanced west may have been, others can catch up over time. So, not really logical to state that India does not have precision tooling for AMCA or stealth planes. Similarly, Russia, China also have the needed tools.

Don't simply state that only west can have tools while others can't

You are mostly correct. The precision tooling part is needed mostly for the electronics part of the aircraft, and manufacturing special dyes and coatings (as well as dispensing them). A good example would be the iridium coating on the canopy of fighter jets. Precision tooling is also needed for making smooth aircraft skins free from rivet bumps, but India should most likely have this, given our extensive experience with composites in the LCA.

 

[IndianHawk]

Let's look into how many 5th gen fighter will India need . Looking at current force structure we have almost 600+ birds of them 400 are 4+ gen ( 280 su30+ 16 lca+ 100 mirage and mig29k)
While 200+ are third gen although heavily upgraded ( 120 mig21+ 80 jags + mig27??)

Looking out 20 years from now 2040. If we maintain same numbers.
There will be 200 mwf which will serve till 2060+
123 mk1a will serve till 2050+
36+ more rafale serving till 2060.
So almost 400 4.5 gen birds which will still be operational for decade or more .

But su30 MKI will start retiring from 2035 in batches and will Create an opening for 300 5th gen birds. Next lca mk1a will retire by 2050 and create an opening for 120 5th/ 6th gen birds.

And if iaf goes for 42 sq= 800 aircraft.
Then required 5th gen birds in 2040s and 50s are 300 su30 replacement + 150 new birds.

So all in 400-500 5th gen are required. Will all be amca or su57mki will also get some numbers.

Also by 2040 6th gen will start incoming. US is targeting 2035 so are Chinese . European are aiming at 2040 . If India starts 6th gen program by 2035 after its free from mwf and amca development then Indian 6th gen will come only in 2050s.

By 2060 4th gen birds will be obsolete even rafale and mwf tech will have to be replaced by at least 5th gen. That means another 300-400 5th gen birds will be required.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Steven Rogers]

Let's look into how many 5th gen fighter will India need . Looking at current force structure we have almost 600+ birds of them 400 are 4+ gen ( 280 su30+ 16 lca+ 100 mirage and mig29k)
While 200+ are third gen although heavily upgraded ( 120 mig21+ 80 jags + mig27??)

Looking out 20 years from now 2040. If we maintain same numbers.
There will be 200 mwf which will serve till 2060+
123 mk1a will serve till 2050+
36+ more rafale serving till 2060.
So almost 400 4.5 gen birds which will still be operational for decade or more .

But su30 MKI will start retiring from 2035 in batches and will Create an opening for 300 5th gen birds. Next lca mk1a will retire by 2050 and create an opening for 120 5th/ 6th gen birds.

And if iaf goes for 42 sq= 800 aircraft.
Then required 5th gen birds in 2040s and 50s are 300 su30 replacement + 150 new birds.

So all in 400-500 5th gen are required. Will all be amca or su57mki will also get some numbers.

Also by 2040 6th gen will start incoming. US is targeting 2035 so are Chinese . European are aiming at 2040 . If India starts 6th gen program by 2035 after its free from mwf and amca development then Indian 6th gen will come only in 2050s.

By 2060 4th gen birds will be obsolete even rafale and mwf tech will have to be replaced by at least 5th gen. That means another 300-400 5th gen birds will be required.

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

By 2060 many of us wont be alive.

 

[IndianHawk]

By 2060 many of us wont be alive.

Common by that measures all future is pointless!

Sent from my C103 using Tapatalk

 

[Armand2REP]

By 2060 4th gen birds will be obsolete even rafale and mwf tech will have to be replaced by at least 5th gen. That means another 300-400 5th gen birds will be required.

By 2060 even 5th gen tech will be obsolete and 6th gen tech long in the tooth. We will probably have space cruisers fighting for the resources of the solar system by then. I hear mining asteroids can be a lucrative business if you can muster the startup capital.

 

[IndianHawk]

By 2060 even 5th gen tech will be obsolete and 6th gen tech long in the tooth. We will probably have space cruisers fighting for the resources of the solar system by then. I hear mining asteroids can be a lucrative business if you can muster the startup capital.

The point is gradually iaf will have to update entire fleet to 5th and 6th gen fighters.

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[Tang]

TSMC gets technology from USA. TSMC, Samsung etc never had any R&D in 1990 but suddenly USA came and gave them technology transfer but under strict condition that the technology will be under USA control and protected by its military. So, even TSMC foundry is essentially USA one jut given under TOT to build better relation with Taiwan.

Fund is not the problem but infrastructure and tecnology is the problem. Entire infrastructure like making of tools, processing of silicon, foundry needed for 28nm or below is exclusively controlled by USA & its military allies. Even if India pays big, getting technology will be difficult.China has been trying to buy these companies but USA is consistently vetoing it. Same case will be with India.

India already has GaN foundry and makes GaN modules. DRDO has stated that India is now making GaN radar development/ It was just a larger foundry at IISC which was not yet sanctioned and again it is unlikely that funds were short.

Please shar any link supporting your claim

 

[gryphus-scarface]

Please shar any link supporting your claim

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Electronics#1969–1987:_Early_years

Samsung got its first stuff from Micron, which is a US company.

I can't find any reliable sources for TSMC, so maybe TSMC developed its own tech. The best I can find is TSMC was initially a JV with Phillips NV.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/comp...iconductor-manufacturing-company-ltd-history/

https://anysilicon.com/history-and-milestones-of-tsmc/

 

[Armand2REP]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsung_Electronics#1969–1987:_Early_years

Samsung got its first stuff from Micron, which is a US company.

I can't find any reliable sources for TSMC, so maybe TSMC developed its own tech. The best I can find is TSMC was initially a JV with Phillips NV.

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/comp...iconductor-manufacturing-company-ltd-history/

https://anysilicon.com/history-and-milestones-of-tsmc/

TSMC develops its own fab process, as long as their product doesn't contain over 25% US IP or materials it is exempt from sanctions. Getting the fabs isn't the problem, using licenses for chipsets that Huawei is banned from using is.

 

[Vijyes]

TSMC develops its own fab process, as long as their product doesn't contain over 25% US IP or materials it is exempt from sanctions. Getting the fabs isn't the problem, using licenses for chipsets that Huawei is banned from using is.

Can you tell me how TSMC gets its own fab IP for 14nm, 22nm etc? As far as I know, TSMC does not have an extensive R&D programme to develop fabs. TSMC was founded in 1987 when USA had already made 1um chipset. Starting from scratch and developing latest chipset appears to be too good to be true. China, which started 5-10 years earlier still is in 28nm and trying to get 22nm ready. How TSMC was so much better than China? Do you see how it is all USA IP which is given for TSMC, Korean companies etc?

 

[Armand2REP]

Can you tell me how TSMC gets its own fab IP for 14nm, 22nm etc? As far as I know, TSMC does not have an extensive R&D programme to develop fabs. TSMC was founded in 1987 when USA had already made 1um chipset. Starting from scratch and developing latest chipset appears to be too good to be true. China, which started 5-10 years earlier still is in 28nm and trying to get 22nm ready. How TSMC was so much better than China? Do you see how it is all USA IP which is given for TSMC, Korean companies etc?

TSMC doesn't make 14nm, they make 16/12 for that generation and 10nm for the current crop. The R&D budget of TSMC is 8% of revenue in 2017 being put towards 7nm and next gen lithography. With revenue of $33 billion for that year, 8% is a lot of R&D funds. How they are more advanced than China is 8% of $33 billion year after year after year going into R&D is more than China funds it, much less having the innovation built into their corporate culture. Everything in China is stealing or copying so they will always be behind.

 

[shiphone]

yeah， you may have to google with 'TSMC 7nm' or 6nm ,5nm,3nm...the top 'foundry ' of Mainland China is at 28nm level (mass production),next step is 14nm
try to learn more about this 'industry chain, then you may know what role TSMC is and where TSMC is in this 'chain'?

(translation of the top3 in this table)
Intel
Samsung
TSMC

-----------
this is the time of Technical monopoly nowadays...current TSMC is one of the few ones.

 

[shiphone]

BTW, some interesting history about the TSMC...

the senior chief of R&D department TSMC- Mr. Mong-Song Lian left the company in 2009 , he went to the South Korean University and then join the Samsung...and then here came the 'rise' of Samsung's
Foundry -- semiconductor fabrication plant operation...lol... TSMC took a legal action against him later...

nowadays, Mr Lian joins in Mainland China's SMIC(Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation, the 4th on the international rank)...and then came the maturing of the 28nm process mass production...just months ago. SMIC began the mass production of 14nm process. in this production field, an important indicator is 'finished product ratio'( 60% qualified ,80%+ maturing ). we need some time to observe SMIC's 14nm production then judge...

with the new ASML machine coming, the 7nm process is right on the way.

 

[gryphus-scarface]

TSMC develops its own fab process, as long as their product doesn't contain over 25% US IP or materials it is exempt from sanctions. Getting the fabs isn't the problem, using licenses for chipsets that Huawei is banned from using is.

Well that may be, but their first fab was not something they fully developed on their own, which is what I was trying to say. Now they are among the best chip fabricators in the world, and very much do most development in-house.

Huawei mostly won't be able to make chips because ARM supposedly wants to ban them too. So they are left with RISC-V or Spark as the major alternatives. RISC-V is pretty much the only way forward, unless they come up with their own ISA. And coming up with their own ISA is pretty much suicide unless they make it open, and make it a viable competitor to RISC-V.

 

[Armand2REP]

BTW, some interesting history about the TSMC...

the senior chief of R&D department TSMC- Mr. Mong-Song Lian left the company in 2009 , he went to the South Korean University and then join the Samsung...and then here came the 'rise' of Samsung's
Foundry -- semiconductor fabrication plant operation...lol... TSMC took a legal action against him later...

nowadays, Mr Lian joins in Mainland China's SMIC(Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation, the 4th on the international rank)...and then came the maturing of the 28nm process mass production...just months ago. SMIC began the mass production of 14nm process. in this production field, an important indicator is 'finished product ratio'( 60% qualified ,80%+ maturing ). we need some time to observe SMIC's 14nm production then judge...

with the new ASML machine coming, the 7nm process is right on the way.

SMIC got its start by stealing TSMC IP back in the mid 2000s. TSMC won a lawsuit on 61 out of 65 claims and was awarded $200 million cash and 10% shares in SMIC. So where they get their fab tech is obvious, licensing agreements with TSMC.

 

[Vijyes]

TSMC doesn't make 14nm, they make 16/12 for that generation and 10nm for the current crop. The R&D budget of TSMC is 8% of revenue in 2017 being put towards 7nm and next gen lithography. With revenue of $33 billion for that year, 8% is a lot of R&D funds. How they are more advanced than China is 8% of $33 billion year after year after year going into R&D is more than China funds it, much less having the innovation built into their corporate culture. Everything in China is stealing or copying so they will always be behind.

There is a difference between innovation and invention. Innovation is just manipulation whereas invention is the real deal. Development of fab for newer geenration is invention. TSMC budget for R&D may be high but that does not mean that it can develop things on its own. China puts in much higher budget on semiconductor than TSMC and yet it is lagging behind at 28nm.

yeah， you may have to google with 'TSMC 7nm' or 6nm ,5nm,3nm...the top 'foundry ' of Mainland China is at 28nm level (mass production),next step is 14nm
try to learn more about this 'industry chain, then you may know what role TSMC is and where TSMC is in this 'chain'?

(translation of the top3 in this table)
Intel
Samsung
TSMC

-----------
this is the time of Technical monopoly nowadays...current TSMC is one of the few ones.

TSMC & Samsung chip making IP is directly controlled by USA. That is why the intel, Samsung ad TSMC together always are in the top of the world simultaenously. They share technology with each other and hence remain at the top without competing with each other on a time lag basis.

BTW, some interesting history about the TSMC...

the senior chief of R&D department TSMC- Mr. Mong-Song Lian left the company in 2009 , he went to the South Korean University and then join the Samsung...and then here came the 'rise' of Samsung's
Foundry -- semiconductor fabrication plant operation...lol... TSMC took a legal action against him later...

nowadays, Mr Lian joins in Mainland China's SMIC(Semiconductor Manufacturing International Corporation, the 4th on the international rank)...and then came the maturing of the 28nm process mass production...just months ago. SMIC began the mass production of 14nm process. in this production field, an important indicator is 'finished product ratio'( 60% qualified ,80%+ maturing ). we need some time to observe SMIC's 14nm production then judge...

with the new ASML machine coming, the 7nm process is right on the way.

One man can't get entire technology done. The fab is a chemical process while designing is analytical one. We can'y have one man who nows everything. There are millions of lines of codes written which dictate how the machines must work, thousands of engineers and scientists who design the tools like laser, centrfugal machines, atomisers etc.

Accept the reality that Taiwan and Korea are USA stooges and their IP is controlled by USA. USA shares it with these countries to develop the economy of these countries and make allies and military bases for strategic reasons.

 

[Armand2REP]

There is a difference between innovation and invention. Innovation is just manipulation whereas invention is the real deal. Development of fab for newer geenration is invention. TSMC budget for R&D may be high but that does not mean that it can develop things on its own. China puts in much higher budget on semiconductor than TSMC and yet it is lagging behind at 28nm.

SMIC was built on the back of TSMC and is now partly owned by it and survives by using their licenses. That is how most Chinese tech companies come to fruition, by stealing IP, getting sued and then buying licenses to stay legitimate. The companies selling the licenses are only issuing dated tech so the Chinese competitor will not be eating into their core market share. I do not know what percentage of TSMC production relies on US IP, but it must be under 25% or they would be subject to sanctions.