AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Anandhu Krishna]

I know I am talking about this a bit late and forgive me if this has already been discussed in the past but I had noticed something with regards to the AMCA model which was showcased at Aero India 2021 and what it was missing was a EOTS(Electro optical Targeting System) below it's nose. Like on this F-35:
View attachment 130741
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But look at model of AMCA which was shown in Aero India 2021:
View attachment 130740
It lacks the presence of an EOTS, which at that Time made me come to one conclusion is that if AMCA was coming with EOTs than it will be a pod Based EOTS. Also we had seen the hint of an EOTS on AMCA on an AMCA model which was showcased behind our Air Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhari.
View attachment 130742View attachment 130743
what do you make of it? Anyways i hope it will become more clear in Aero India 2023.

Thats just something on that window.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Even I thought that they earlier had the trapezoidal rudders like F-22
View attachment 130997

But they seem to have changed it to more F-35ish slanted rudder.
View attachment 130998

I don’t know much about it whether it is stealthier or more aerodynamic rudder design, but they seem to be better obviously else they would’ve stick with the trapezoidal one.

those could have worked as big airbrakes.

 

[Kalkioftoday]

those could have worked as big airbrakes.

Aerodynamics issue. China's J31 earlier tried a trapezoidal rudder but later ditched it for a slanted one.

 

[THESIS THORON]

Aerodynamics issue. China's J31 earlier tried a trapezoidal rudder but later ditched it for a slanted one.

View attachment 131027

View attachment 131028

then how muricans did it ??

 

[Kalkioftoday]

then how muricans did it ??

Different aircraft altogether. F22 and AMCA or J31 have nothing in common. But if noticed, AMCA and J31 has many aerodynamics design commonality and that's why both choose the slanted rudder, i guess.

 

[Super Flanker]

Thats just something on that window.

What do you mean by 'Thats just something on that window.'? Could you elaborate kindly?

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

No sense in buying gripen when Tejas MK2 rollout this year will outmatch its advanced model, and Tejas MK1a outmatches current gripen..... get 114/36 more rafale if you need through MRFA/Old contract, then go for indegenous fighters.

HAL the culprit again reports suggests in delay in mk2 rollout from aug to now dec/early 2023 god knows how much more delays they going to do even after knowing the stakes!

IAF is doing everything to scuttle the indigenous program. The Ministry needs to purge the military of the ranks of those commanders who favour imports. That's the only way. Sounds political, but they should not be made to reach decision-making power.

its not IAF fault if HAL can’t deliver on time…
&
If the Ministry do that then we’ll end up with issue similar as ordinance factory with faulty ammunition to platform.
In my opinion govt should carve out another entity from ISRO and create two groups
HAL+PVT Indian firm+ International firm
ISRO+PVT Indian firm+ International firm
(33% stakes for each firm)
then only you will see innovation at its peak when they will be competing but most importantly the deadlines of important project being met on time!

 

[MonaLazy]

HAL the culprit again

its not IAF fault if HAL can’t deliver on time…

Not true.

According to defence sources, the long-awaited CDR, which was supposed to happen in July, was finally completed on November 15, with up to 20 sub-systems being individually cleared by the Indian Air Force (IAF).

From July to November is an IAF induced 4 month delay- erring on the side of safety. That's enough to push roll out from August '22 to late '22 / early '23.

Boon for Indian industries waiting in wings of LCA Mark II

www.deccanherald.com

 

[Anandhu Krishna]

What do you mean by 'Thats just something on that window.'? Could you elaborate kindly?

Do we have anything other than this pic to base the assumption that AMCA has EOTS!? This pic is blurry and to me that thing just looks like something on the window, maybe part of the blinds.

 

[fire starter]

Do we have anything other than this pic to base the assumption that AMCA has EOTS!? This pic is blurry and to me that thing just looks like something on the window, maybe part of the blinds.

Look properly that thing is extending well beyond the window so its definately part of aircraft model.(EOTS)

 

[Tshering22]

HAL the culprit again reports suggests in delay in mk2 rollout from aug to now dec/early 2023 god knows how much more delays they going to do even after knowing the stakes!

its not IAF fault if HAL can’t deliver on time…
&
If the Ministry do that then we’ll end up with issue similar as ordinance factory with faulty ammunition to platform.
In my opinion govt should carve out another entity from ISRO and create two groups
HAL+PVT Indian firm+ International firm
ISRO+PVT Indian firm+ International firm
(33% stakes for each firm)
then only you will see innovation at its peak when they will be competing but most importantly the deadlines of important project being met on time!

You need to understand that the situation is not the same as the PSU era. Now there are many private competitors as well for different arms. Every country, whether it was USA, UK, Russia, Japan or China, have had to give some initial unfair advantage to the homegrown defense companies in order to boost their defence sector. That is the only way.

Buying defense goods is not like buying furniture, though that is what the babus have reduced it to. Every country gives a slight slack to Indian companies. Just because OFB was messed up does not mean that we should not give room to the new burgeoning private companies & end up with state or legacy private (TATA, Reliance, Mahindra, etc.) conglomerates calling all the shots alone.

AMCA will have private players also with limited funds. Where will they go? What will they do if the government gets paranoid about HAL?

HAL struggled because IAF did not give it feedback and gave it a shoestring budget. Look at the budgets allocated for projects like these in other countries. Even when they were new, they got generous allocations. IAF has been the most anti-indigenous faction of the armed services and this is a known fact. Where there is smoke, there is fire.

Had they participated in Tejas project since day 1, this won't have happened. Not to mention the generous scuttling of projects by the erstwhile Congress regime.

 

[Super Flanker]

Do we have anything other than this pic to base the assumption that AMCA has EOTS!? This pic is blurry and to me that thing just looks like something on the window, maybe part of the blinds.

That's what I too was thinking at first. No one knows what exactly this thing is actually. Even I had thought that it was just a background error which made the model appear to have an EOTS. Anyways Everything will become crystal clear in the next Aero India.

 

[lcafanboy]

 

[THESIS THORON]

seems less bulky than f35 and j20

 

[Anandhu Krishna]

Look properly that thing is extending well beyond the window so its definately part of aircraft model.(EOTS)
View attachment 131142

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I know I am talking about this a bit late and forgive me if this has already been discussed in the past but I had noticed something with regards to the AMCA model which was showcased at Aero India 2021 and what it was missing was a EOTS(Electro optical Targeting System) below it's nose. Like on this F-35:
View attachment 130741
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
But look at model of AMCA which was shown in Aero India 2021:
View attachment 130740
It lacks the presence of an EOTS, which at that Time made me come to one conclusion is that if AMCA was coming with EOTs than it will be a pod Based EOTS. Also we had seen the hint of an EOTS on AMCA on an AMCA model which was showcased behind our Air Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhari.
View attachment 130742View attachment 130743
what do you make of it? Anyways i hope it will become more clear in Aero India 2023.

There is a delicate balance b/w gaining confidence of citizens by telling them capabilities of assets by exhibition/CAD models & then keeping the adversaries confused by keep on guessing about the final design by not revealling everything &/or not precisely.
We can try to ask these things in interviews. I think in 1 video of Aero-India it was asked.

I tried explaing in my 1st post in this thread [https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/amca-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft-hal.36/post-2114110] that as part of cardinal characteristics of a 5th gen jet, it cannot afford to have external pod based EOTS/IRST/LD/LRF/DIRCM, not even the spherical bulb which Sukhois & MiGs have.
Also, nothing about locations of MAWS, RWR & other EW antennas have been revealed yet. I tried to speculate their location in 1 of my replies (https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/amca-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft-hal.36/post-2114110)
The 6-axis DAS-MAWS + chin EOTS seems to be the best option so far.
In future foreign platforms the EOTS, DIRCM, DEW apertures may be retractable or have aero-elastic covers which we should also aim at, we have ample time of 10-15 years.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

View attachment 130789
Yes it's a good thing though that we choose the F-35 style Intake design for the AMCA. It's gonna result in lesser RCS than if used with F-22 style intake. I am sure that this was validated in wind tunnel and RCS testing of both designs though which allowed the designers to pick F-35 style intake because it was better.
View attachment 130786View attachment 130787

Vought XF8U-3 Crusader III in 1950s had DSI but not implemented in any jet i think thereafter in 20th century.
The F-22 with S-duct has much lower RCS than F-35 with DSI & Y-duct, so DSI alone cannot decide RCS.
11 Billion US$ have been allocated recently for MLU of F-22 but IDK if they will modify airframe to implement DSI when the RCS is already much lower, the intake part is not modular that simply a DSI kit can be attached like a CFT.
The block-30 F-16 DSI flew in 1996 but not implemented in future blocks, but F-35 since 1994 had DSI design. But thereafter also F-22 wasn't modified, tail-4001 flew in 1997, till induction in 2003 also it wasn't modified, but still the F-22 cleverly -
>angles the boundary-layer separator plate.
> makes the boundary-layer separator plate as part of intake.
> shields the the upper spill air-flow path to reduce RCS by using micro-mesh cover vent.
> positions a ram-air inlet to use some of the boundary layer for ECS.
> uses remaining boundary layer to exit down adding to lift.

After F-22, many new jets are chosing DSI due to mechanical simplicity to handle

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

I time travelled to futire, replied & then returned

 

[Super Flanker]

Vought XF8U-3 Crusader III in 1950s had DSI but not implemented in any jet i think thereafter in 20th century.
The F-22 with S-duct has much lower RCS than F-35 with DSI & Y-duct, so DSI alone cannot decide RCS.
11 Billion US$ have been allocated recently for MLU of F-22 but IDK if they will modify airframe to implement DSI when the RCS is already much lower, the intake part is not modular that simply a DSI kit can be attached like a CFT.
The block-30 F-16 DSI flew in 1996 but not implemented in future blocks, but F-35 since 1994 had DSI design. But thereafter also F-22 wasn't modified, tail-4001 flew in 1997, till induction in 2003 also it wasn't modified, but still the F-22 cleverly -
>angles the boundary-layer separator plate.
> makes the boundary-layer separator plate as part of intake.
> shields the the upper spill air-flow path to reduce RCS by using micro-mesh cover vent.
> positions a ram-air inlet to use some of the boundary layer for ECS.
> uses remaining boundary layer to exit down adding to lift.

View attachment 131426
View attachment 131427

After F-22, many new jets are chosing DSI due to mechanical simplicity to handle

I don't see the Possibility of F-22 getting DSI(Diverterless Supersonic inlet) because I don't think so that it was designed in the that way. The F-22 Raptor is said to use a fixed, rhombohedral shaped jet intake that is combined with a serpentine intake duct. This allows for speeds just north of Mach 2 without the Actual need for a variable geometry inlet to prevent shockwave ingestion.

(Kindly refer to below diagram as it will explain in more detail about the different types of Inlets used in Modern day Aircrafts)

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Unfortunately I cannot go into to much more detail about such a complex system. Now you say that F-22 S duct inlets are more Stealthy and result in more lower RCS than why we did we not opt for such a design in our own AMCA like how it was showcased in this model of the AMCA(refer to this picture):

There could be various reasons for this for example, the design resulted in Better Aerodynamics ,the Aircraft had satisfactorily Stealth, the Ratio of Stealth, Aerodynamic performance etc was in favourable ratio. Etc.

 

[Super Flanker]

There is a delicate balance b/w gaining confidence of citizens by telling them capabilities of assets by exhibition/CAD models & then keeping the adversaries confused by keep on guessing about the final design by not revealling everything &/or not precisely.
We can try to ask these things in interviews. I think in 1 video of Aero-India it was asked.

I tried explaing in my 1st post in this thread [https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/amca-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft-hal.36/post-2114110] that as part of cardinal characteristics of a 5th gen jet, it cannot afford to have external pod based EOTS/IRST/LD/LRF/DIRCM, not even the spherical bulb which Sukhois & MiGs have.
Also, nothing about locations of MAWS, RWR & other EW antennas have been revealed yet. I tried to speculate their location in 1 of my replies (https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/amca-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft-hal.36/post-2114110)
The 6-axis DAS-MAWS + chin EOTS seems to be the best option so far.
In future foreign platforms the EOTS, DIRCM, DEW apertures may be retractable or have aero-elastic covers which we should also aim at, we have ample time of 10-15 years.

Right
.......

I time travelled to futire, replied & then returned
View attachment 131434

Hahaha! This looks funny.