AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[abingdonboy]

His priorities doesn't look right with struggling economy lol. Hopefully they will learn their lesson soon.

Don't know enough about their economy or the costs of his rule but that sounds about right, it's often what happens when dictators come to power, they usually enjoy 4-5 years of a boost and then quickly things fall apart.

Under him Turkey has taken many many steps backwards from the modern Western looking it was just 10 years ago who had aspirations of joining the EU.

 

[Spitfire9]

They have some in deveolpment but still not ready .


@Spitfire9 I think they are overconfident in their capability ,but they are asking for help from ukraine , pakistan (lol asking beggar for gold ) , brits are already their sugar daddy in this program , still they are struggling ,looks like too much TOT is hurting their RND

From my memory of reading aviation news BaE Systems had a $150 million contract connected to TF-X and RR pulled out of making an agreement on developing an engine due to ToT issues. It sounds like they are going to try to develop an engine on their own.

 

[fire starter]

From my memory of reading aviation news BaE Systems had a $150 million contract connected to TF-X and RR pulled out of making an agreement on developing an engine due to ToT issues. It sounds like they are going to try to develop an engine on their own.

No on their own but with the help of JV with GE called tusas.

 

[Lonewolf]

No on their own but with the help of JV with GE called tusas.

I remember UKRAINE is also in consideration

 

[Dark Sorrow]

United Engine Corporation is also ready to offer their engine to the turks.

 

[Covfefe]

Lol. No engine selected and they give first flight dates..what a circus!

Have they any aircraft building experience that they have directly undertaken a 5th gen Fighter jet program upon themselves? If I recall correctly, the Fly-by-Wire system, which is considered pretty standard for a 4th gen aircraft, for Tejas took close to half a decade for development and testing from scratch and then some more time to mature it. Chinese took close to a decade to develop an AESA radar fit for their requirements. 5th gen fighter jets are way more complex with the sensor data fusion and the control surface laws on a complex geometry designed for stealth. Plus the weapons package- are they developing those too? Who is helping them?

 

[Abdus Salem killed]

Have they any aircraft building experience that they have directly undertaken a 5th gen Fighter jet program upon themselves? If I recall correctly, the Fly-by-Wire system, which is considered pretty standard for a 4th gen aircraft, for Tejas took close to half a decade for development and testing from scratch and then some more time to mature it. Chinese took close to a decade to develop an AESA radar fit for their requirements. 5th gen fighter jets are way more complex with the sensor data fusion and the control surface laws on a complex geometry designed for stealth. Plus the weapons package- are they developing those too? Who is helping them?

Any comments from members

 

[Dark Sorrow]

If I recall correctly, the Fly-by-Wire system, which is considered pretty standard for a 4th gen aircraft, for Tejas took close to half a decade for development and testing from scratch and then some more time to mature it.

We didn't Fly-by-Wire system from scratch alone by our-self. We got lot of help from Lockheed Martin. Earlier version of Fly-by-Wire system was even tested on F-16.
In today's age developing Fly-by-Wire system is not a big deal and university students have also achieved the same. As Turkey has developed drones which also use Fly-by-Wire system they can easily scale up such system to their 5th generation aircraft.
The most important thing in development of Fly-by-Wire system is that you are well versed with aerodynamics, control surfaces and allied features with respect to your aircraft.

 

[ShukantC]

We didn't Fly-by-Wire system from scratch alone by our-self. We got lot of help from Lockheed Martin. Earlier version of Fly-by-Wire system was even tested on F-16.
In today's age developing Fly-by-Wire system is not a big deal and university students have also achieved the same. As Turkey has developed drones which also use Fly-by-Wire system they can easily scale up such system to their 5th generation aircraft.
The most important thing in development of Fly-by-Wire system is that you are well versed with aerodynamics, control surfaces and allied features with respect to your aircraft.

The scaling part is not easy as you say.

The drones developed by Turkey are all subsonic barely maneuverable. Now going from that to a machine that flies almost twice the speed of sound and which has to be agile and nimble.

You are talking about a whole new level here.

In the case of Tejas it was just the start of the control law development where we had access to the F 16 iron bird which was basically testing a downgraded F16 fly by wire control laws which were being adapted for the Tejas. After the sanctions the Americans withdrew there cooperation entirely and the data of the test was never shared with us. The CLAW team then set out indigenously to develop them which really did take half a decade to a decade

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

We didn't Fly-by-Wire system from scratch alone by our-self. We got lot of help from Lockheed Martin. Earlier version of Fly-by-Wire system was even tested on F-16.
In today's age developing Fly-by-Wire system is not a big deal and university students have also achieved the same. As Turkey has developed drones which also use Fly-by-Wire system they can easily scale up such system to their 5th generation aircraft.
The most important thing in development of Fly-by-Wire system is that you are well versed with aerodynamics, control surfaces and allied features with respect to your aircraft.

Fly-by-wire is 4th gen. 5th gen use fly-by-light, correct me if i am wrong. More importantly though, these are control systems. The challenge lies in what they are trying to control. A drone, especially the kind that Turks build, are aerodynamically stable, as far as I know. Unlike 4+ gen fighters that are designed to be unstable. Moreover, they aren't air superiority platforms, so their flight envelope is not nearly comparable. Their control algorithms are much simpler. Not even close to that of a 4th gen fighter.
.
Compare that with what DRDO has achieved. Look at Naval Tejas. One of its most astounding features is that when the pilot trying to land on the aircraft carrier and tilts the stick to get a certain glide angle, that position becomes neutral in the autopilot, so the pilot now doesn't have to continuously make an effort to adjust the stick to have a constant glide angle. This almost takes the challenge out of carrier landings. I remember watching the entire online presentation at Aero India where they discussed Control Systems of Naval Tejas.
.
This feature of Tejas is so revolutionary, the only other plane I know that has this is the Super Hornet, which also only got this feature in around 2016. Such is the stature of Indian CLAW software. Meanwhile, Turks are impressive because they can do some basic MALE drones? Even University students can build FBW? Yes, but its complexity is a function of the beast you are trying to control and the situation in which you are trying to control it.

 

[abingdonboy]

Fly-by-wire is 4th gen. 5th gen use fly-by-light, correct me if i am wrong. More importantly though, these are control systems. The challenge lies in what they are trying to control. A drone, especially the kind that Turks build, are aerodynamically stable, as far as I know. Unlike 4+ gen fighters that are designed to be unstable. Moreover, they aren't air superiority platforms, so their flight envelope is not nearly comparable. Their control algorithms are much simpler. Not even close to that of a 4th gen fighter.
.
Compare that with what DRDO has achieved. Look at Naval Tejas. One of its most astounding features is that when the pilot trying to land on the aircraft carrier and tilts the stick to get a certain glide angle, that position becomes neutral in the autopilot, so the pilot now doesn't have to continuously make an effort to adjust the stick to have a constant glide angle. This almost takes the challenge out of carrier landings. I remember watching the entire online presentation at Aero India where they discussed Control Systems of Naval Tejas.
.
This feature of Tejas is so revolutionary, the only other plane I know that has this is the Super Hornet, which also only got this feature in around 2016. Such is the stature of Indian CLAW software. Meanwhile, Turks are impressive because they can do some basic MALE drones? Even University students can build FBW? Yes, but its complexity is a function of the beast you are trying to control and the situation in which you are trying to control it.

I also believe they designed the N-LCA to have hands free takeoff from carriers- that was the intention anyway, I don’t know if it’s been implemented today.

they definitely have developed the CLAW on LCA to its extremes, it has an auto recovery mode that will automatically or manually recover the plane to straight and level flight in case of pilot incapacitation/loss of spatial awareness/GLOC. I believe one of the ASTE test pilots said only the Rafale has a similar feature in the IAF.

what’s more interesting is to see what they add for MK1A and MK.2 based on user input from the line guys

 

[Lonewolf]

I also believe they designed the N-LCA to have hands free takeoff from carriers- that was the intention anyway, I don’t know if it’s been implemented today.

they definitely have developed the CLAW on LCA to its extremes, it has an auto recovery mode that will automatically or manually recover the plane to straight and level flight in case of pilot incapacitation/loss of spatial awareness/GLOC. I believe one of the ASTE test pilots said only the Rafale has a similar feature in the IAF.

what’s more interesting is to see what they add for MK1A and MK.2 based on user input from the line guys

I am waiting for TEDBF CLAW ,they might manage it to carry more payload than mig 29k

 

[FalconSlayers]

Old news but indicative of the state of the TF-X programme...


https://www.defensenews.com/industry/te ... ghter-jet/

Sounds like things are not going according to plan: 2-3 year delay in first flight; no engine in sight. I wonder if it will be cancelled once the current president loses power.

Can you stop posting Turkroach-FX here? There is a thread for it already.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

The scaling part is not easy as you say.

The drones developed by Turkey are all subsonic barely maneuverable. Now going from that to a machine that flies almost twice the speed of sound and which has to be agile and nimble.

You are talking about a whole new level here.

This is more of a problem with aerodynamics and fluid dynamics.
Modern computers are powerful enough to handle flight control complex control algorithm in real time. They can always import developers from Germany if required.

In the case of Tejas it was just the start of the control law development where we had access to the F 16 iron bird which was basically testing a downgraded F16 fly by wire control laws which were being adapted for the Tejas. After the sanctions the Americans withdrew there cooperation entirely and the data of the test was never shared with us. The CLAW team then set out indigenously to develop them which really did take half a decade to a decade

For any new venture you always need help at the beginning when you have no idea of how things should work. Once you get that idea you can incrementally improvise on your work.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

I also believe they designed the N-LCA to have hands free takeoff from carriers- that was the intention anyway, I don’t know if it’s been implemented today.

they definitely have developed the CLAW on LCA to its extremes, it has an auto recovery mode that will automatically or manually recover the plane to straight and level flight in case of pilot incapacitation/loss of spatial awareness/GLOC. I believe one of the ASTE test pilots said only the Rafale has a similar feature in the IAF.

what’s more interesting is to see what they add for MK1A and MK.2 based on user input from the line guys

As far as I know, they have indeed already implemented hands-free take-off in NLCA.

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Fly-by-wire is 4th gen. 5th gen use fly-by-light, correct me if i am wrong. More importantly though, these are control systems. The challenge lies in what they are trying to control. A drone, especially the kind that Turks build, are aerodynamically stable, as far as I know. Unlike 4+ gen fighters that are designed to be unstable. Moreover, they aren't air superiority platforms, so their flight envelope is not nearly comparable. Their control algorithms are much simpler. Not even close to that of a 4th gen fighter.
`

5th gen do prefer to use fly-by-light. Except for physical medium for transmission of data/signal fly-by-light is almost same as fly-by-wire.
In fly-by-light we transmit data in as optical signal over fiber-optic cables where as in fly-by-wire we send data as electrical signal over cooper.
Control algorithms developed for fly-by-wire can easily adopted for fly-by-light.
The most difficult part in fly-by-light is developing reliable optical communication between all avionics, control surfaces and mission computer.
As for Turks in house technical capability if they find they lack in some area they can always import scientist, developers and engineers from Germany. This is a very common practice in Turkish companies.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

5th gen do prefer to use fly-by-light. Except for physical medium for transmission of data/signal fly-by-light is almost same as fly-by-wire.
In fly-by-light we transmit data in as optical signal over fiber-optic cables where as in fly-by-wire we send data as electrical signal over cooper.
Control algorithms developed for fly-by-wire can easily adopted for fly-by-light.
The most difficult part in fly-by-light is developing reliable optical communication between all avionics, control surfaces and mission computer.
As for Turks in house technical capability if they find they lack in some area they can always import scientist, developers and engineers from Germany. This is a very common practice in Turkish companies.

Ofcourse. Fly by light is a hardware upgrade. And turkey has demonstrated neither that nor the software needed for the FBW. Turks can import scientists and engineers from Germany and start work but it'll still take years to achieve given their starting point. Have they imported the required number of scientists and engineers yet? If not, why are they handing out ambitious timelines? Anyhow, point is, AMCA is more advanced in its development than Turkish fighter at this point. No doubt the Turks are trying to rush theirs into service without half the features while IAF will simply refuse any half-baked product. So we might still see AMCA enter service after the Turkish jet.

 

[SajeevJino]

Have they any aircraft building experience that they have directly undertaken a 5th gen Fighter jet program upon themselves? If I recall correctly, the Fly-by-Wire system, which is considered pretty standard for a 4th gen aircraft, for Tejas took close to half a decade for development and testing from scratch and then some more time to mature it. Chinese took close to a decade to develop an AESA radar fit for their requirements. 5th gen fighter jets are way more complex with the sensor data fusion and the control surface laws on a complex geometry designed for stealth. Plus the weapons package- are they developing those too? Who is helping them?

and you believe Indian DPSU can make AMCA in home

 

[Dark Sorrow]

Ofcourse. Fly by light is a hardware upgrade. And turkey has demonstrated neither that nor the software needed for the FBW. Turks can import scientists and engineers from Germany and start work but it'll still take years to achieve given their starting point.

AFAIK you can buy standard FBW wire enabled mission computer and avionics from off the shelf market.
They can use these off the shelf hardware then the only part pending is their interfacing (for which these companies provide design services) and implementation of FBW software which is also available off the shelf. Optimizing with respect to aircraft's aerodynamics is done by they company providing FBW software or their design partners.

Have they imported the required number of scientists and engineers yet? If not, why are they handing out ambitious timelines?

Turks will not disclose what and how much work has been outsourced to third party contractors. By import what I mean is that Turks will outsource a part of work to European design house (most probably German). In EU their a lot of specialized design houses some as small as 1 man team to team comprising of 1000s of individuals; these design houses do R&D and give you the product or technology with or without IP rights depending on the deal. They might even assist with production. (kindly note in other EU countries such design houses might also be available).
Why they are handing out ambitious timelines? Don't know. May be they thought it was doable or propaganda or etc. take your pick.

Anyhow, point is, AMCA is more advanced in its development than Turkish fighter at this point. No doubt the Turks are trying to rush theirs into service without half the features while IAF will simply refuse any half-baked product. So we might still see AMCA enter service after the Turkish jet.

No one is comparing Turkish fighter to AMCA, both are independent aircraft. Lets see how things pan out for both these aircraft.

 

[Okabe Rintarou]

No one is comparing Turkish fighter to AMCA, both are independent aircraft. Lets see how things pan out for both these aircraft.

My bad. I thought this was being done in the spirit of comparison since we are talking Turkish fighter in AMCA thread.