AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[MirageBlue]

Look at the speed they're developing their fifth gen. Is it possible to manufacture a fifth gen prototype within 2 years from initial PDR. This kind of speed is possible only when most of the parts are commercial off the shelf. Even the chinese aren't that fast with their J31 even though all of their parts are indigenous

They are the biggest fibbers out there. Look how far along that Hurjet is and then you'll know how the TF-X is not going to meet any of these ridiculous timelines. They haven't even frozen on the engine selection as yet, and they're talking about prototypes being built. Nothing can be stupider.

 

[Spitfire9]

They are the biggest fibbers out there. Look how far along that Hurjet is and then you'll know how the TF-X is not going to meet any of these ridiculous timelines. They haven't even frozen on the engine selection as yet, and they're talking about prototypes being built. Nothing can be stupider.

I see an indigenous/JV engine as highly unlikely but they can just stick to GE F110 if required, can't they?

AMCA does not have an engine either. Difference to me is that an JV engine for Mk2 is not highly unlikely. To me all depends on how committed GOI is to getting into the engine business.

 

[amit6371]

According to link below

Turkey’s TAI plans to start production of jet trainer at year-end

Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI) plans to start manufacturing the indigenous advanced jet trainer and light attack aircraft, Hürjet, at the end of this...

www.dailysabah.com

Project started Aug 2017
Conceptual design completed Apr 2018
Preliminary design completed Jul 2019
Critical design activities completed Feb 2021
Start of manufacturing planned Q4 2021
First flight planned Dec 2022
Product launch planned 2025/2026

Another 4-5 years envisaged to complete the project. Is that too optimistic, based on progress so far?

Showcasing an airframe and building the whole aircraft is not the same thing. There is a reason why it takes at least five years to get IOC. Iterations have to be made even on the airframe depending on flight trials and it is a frustrating and time-consuming process. Let's see how Turkey does it.

 

[VIP]

I see an indigenous/JV engine as highly unlikely but they can just stick to GE F110 if required, can't they?

AMCA does not have an engine either. Difference to me is that an JV engine for Mk2 is not highly unlikely. To me all depends on how committed GOI is to getting into the engine business.

Forget american engines atleast for now.

 

[MirageBlue]

I see an indigenous/JV engine as highly unlikely but they can just stick to GE F110 if required, can't they?

AMCA does not have an engine either. Difference to me is that an JV engine for Mk2 is not highly unlikely. To me all depends on how committed GOI is to getting into the engine business.

AMCA has an engine selected for the prototypes and the first block. Already announced and the AMCA's structures and electricals are being designed around it.

With TF-X it is still undecided and they keep announcing dates.

 

[MirageBlue]

Showcasing an airframe and building the whole aircraft is not the same thing. There is a reason why it takes at least five years to get IOC. Iterations have to be made even on the airframe depending on flight trials and it is a frustrating and time-consuming process. Let's see how Turkey does it.

the Hurjet hasn't yet even flown once and already they're talking about production by year end..Beyond stupid!

 

[Nationalist Manasvi Papa]

the Hurjet hasn't yet even flown once and already they're talking about production by year end..Beyond stupid!

What's the meaning of Hurjet?
Like Hur in 72 hoors?

 

[FalconSlayers]

What's the meaning of Hurjet?
Like Hur in 72 hoors?

Hoor means an angel afaik, so an angel jet by translation.
But why tf are discussing it here? We have a TF-X thread, CC: @hit&run nibbiar.

 

[Starlight]

My point is that it does not exist. Given funding, it can exist in the future. Sure, that will happen if it is selected for F/A-18. If...

PS When a decision is taken on E matters, too. India does not want to agree not to agree with RR at the end of this year then to find that USN has declined to pay for 414E - leaving India with still no engine for Mk2.

So which engine company do you suggest? Let me tell you... the engines are made first, tested and then advertised here and there. So I think Brexit from India too I what I think you guys should do simply because mainland will not do business with Britain and her colonies. I think you get a better picture with my suggestion. Other wise we can try some other tweaked English junk on your suggestion ofcourse. But please tell us names you guys come up with for your products; we like Merlin.

 

[Spitfire9]

So which engine company do you suggest? Let me tell you... the engines are made first, tested and then advertised here and there. So I think Brexit from India too I what I think you guys should do simply because mainland will not do business with Britain and her colonies. I think you get a better picture with my suggestion. Other wise we can try some other tweaked English junk on your suggestion ofcourse. But please tell us names you guys come up with for your products; we like Merlin.

'So I think Brexit from India too I what I think you guys should do simply because mainland will not do business with Britain and her colonies.'

Lost me. What are you talking about?

' I think you get a better picture with my suggestion. Other wise we can try some other tweaked English junk on your suggestion ofcourse.'

India is obviously wasting time talking to RR about a joint venture, then. By the way, I have no idea whether RR is proposing to rework existing junk or to create brand new junk. I hope it is brand new junk being proposed.

 

[Starlight]

'So I think Brexit from India too I what I think you guys should do simply because mainland will not do business with Britain and her colonies.'

Lost me. What are you talking about?

' I think you get a better picture with my suggestion. Other wise we can try some other tweaked English junk on your suggestion ofcourse.'

India is obviously wasting time talking to RR about a joint venture, then. By the way, I have no idea whether RR is proposing to rework existing junk or to create brand new junk. I hope it is brand new junk being proposed.

It's your flag which led me to believe you were promoting some English produce. So you are a native from here? If so kindly hold back from derogatory comments and derailing remarks related to programmes which are in full swing here. It's great to know expats do take a kind interest in their own native country but it's really depressing to read your comments related to GE and HAL and how slow we are on the technological speed uptake. That is all and we hope, if you are a native that someday you too might get a grip on what goes on here.

 

[FalconSlayers]

It's your flag which led me to believe you were promoting some English produce. So you are a native from here? If so kindly hold back from derogatory comments and derailing remarks related to programmes which are in full swing here. It's great to know expats do take a kind interest in their own native country but it's really depressing to read your comments related to GE and HAL and how slow we are on the technological speed uptake. That is all and we hope, if you are a native that someday you too might get a grip on what goes on here.

Desperately waiting for a Bri’ish fighter aircraft made by themselves.

 

[Maharaj samudragupt]

Desperately waiting for a Bri’ish fighter aircraft made by themselves.

Bhai, I assume you are talking about british being unable to developed their own fighter plane but don't forget if they want it , they surely can roll out a new fifth generation plane all by themselves.
Except pakis we should not call out to brits or chinese or russkeis about aircraft manufacturing

 

[Spitfire9]

Bhai, I assume you are talking about british being unable to developed their own fighter plane but don't forget if they want it , they surely can roll out a new fifth generation plane all by themselves.
Except pakis we should not call out to brits or chinese or russkeis about aircraft manufacturing

We Brits can't afford/don't want to do it alone and pay all the development costs ourselves. Tempest programme is a mixture of R&D and de-risking so the cost to develop a 5G+ fighter is more estimable before a decision is made mid-2020's on whether to go ahead or not. Whatever happens, it is extremely unlikely that the UK govt would go ahead without at least one other foreign partner participating.

One advantage of Tempest I see for India is that RR is being funded to advance its technology which could feed into an engine for AMCA and other Indian types.

 

[Starlight]

We Brits can't afford/don't want to do it alone and pay all the development costs ourselves. Tempest programme is a mixture of R&D and de-risking so the cost to develop a 5G+ fighter is more estimable before a decision is made mid-2020's on whether to go ahead or not. Whatever happens, it is extremely unlikely that the UK govt would go ahead without at least one other foreign partner participating.

One advantage of Tempest I see for India is that RR is being funded to advance its technology which could feed into an engine for AMCA and other Indian types.

Still trying to wriggle in ? I am being very straight and specifying we don't need rolls royce to join in with any of our immediate and future programmes. Please focus on your own country for once and work out your own programmes, on your own, without giving other countries an opportunity to put you guys out of business abroad. Have a little self respect and focus on your own people and land instead of what you guys were doing all along. Very unsuccessful.

 

[abingdonboy]

I remember reading:

1 AMCA should get the official go ahead by end 2021
2 Talks with RR on an engine should be concluded by end 2021

Is there any point in officially launching the project until an engine has been secured? If there is no deal on an engine for Mk2 (India says "no" or RR says "no") does AMCA Mk1 go ahead anyway?

AMCA MK.1 is fixed with F414 regardless of what happens with RR

if something happens with RR it’ll be a setback but not terminal- they’ll restart the MK.2 engine search (still doubt they’ll go to the Americans, maybe the French next?)

MK.1 anyway is going to be highly instructive for MK.2 and they’ll share likely >95% commonality so there’s no reason to assume MK.2 engine woes would derail MK.1 and it was worth going for this approach.

they have basically learned their lesson from the LCA saga; they’ve de-linked the domestic engine project from the development of the aircraft. If they’d gone with the off the shelf proven engine from day one (F404) they’d have saved plenty of time and headaches.

this is definitely optimising what they have planned

 

[abingdonboy]

The GE blurb says the E will have 116kN thrust. Unless GE has decided to go ahead with it thanks to US government financing for a US military order, it will not have 116kN thrust because it won't be made. Unless India is so misguided as to pay GE several $ billion to develop it.

If it is going ahead, great. Gives India a suitable engine for Mk2 and another decade or two to develop an indigenous/JV engine.

The EPE never got the money it needed and certainly won’t from India, as it stands india will be getting the standard 414 for LCA MK.2, TEDBF and AMCA MK.1

this will mean the AMCA MK.1 is not fully optimised as the airframe is designed around 2x110KN power plants

 

[Spitfire9]

Still trying to wriggle in ? I am being very straight and specifying we don't need rolls royce to join in with any of our immediate and future programmes. Please focus on your own country for once and work out your own programmes, on your own, without giving other countries an opportunity to put you guys out of business abroad. Have a little self respect and focus on your own people and land instead of what you guys were doing all along. Very unsuccessful.

India is not capable of making an engine suitable for AMCA. If India does not need RR, fine. Switch to talking to another company. Question is: is a French, US or Russian company going to give India a better deal tha RR? If yes, I suggest going down one of those routes.

Regarding foreigners taking an interest in Indian or US, Turkish, SK, Japanese, Russian or Chinese aviation projects - why shouldn't they?

I'm never going to be an uncritical fanboy of British aviation just because I hold a UK passport. I'm not that blinkered.

 

[fire starter]

As per Midhani annual report, Midhani has delivered test blocks of High Strength titanium alloy forging for high precision milling used to reduce the amount of structural work for the AMCA bulkhead similar to the F-35's monolithic titanium bulkhead.

 

[gearedcombustor]

As per Midhani annual report, Midhani has delivered test blocks of High Strength titanium alloy forging for high precision milling used to reduce the amount of structural work for the AMCA bulkhead similar to the F-35's monolithic titanium bulkhead.

Thanks for cross-posting from the other forum

I have some more things to add to this. This is my first post on this forum.

For F-35's bulkhead see slide 7 of this presentation by Alcoa https://cdn.ymaws.com/titanium.org/resource/resmgr/2010_2014_papers/RoegnerEric_2010MilitaryAeri.pdf

I have my doubts (I'm neither a metallurgist nor Mech engineer) on wether this will make it into the final design as the challenges in ensuring QC/QA for this are immense and will depend on High Cycle Fatigue testing that will probably be carried out now. The fatigue testing is important to ensure durability for the whole lifecycle of the aircraft. F-35 bulkheads faced a lot of challenges during development regarding this as they very frequently observed fatigue cracks in HCF testing.

I also have doubts on how Midhani achieved this as F-35 related reports indicate that they needed large 35000 Ton force and 50000 Ton force forge presses to achieve (due to the thickness) this but AFAIK Midhani only has max up to 6000 Ton force (for steels not aerospace metals.

The largest forge presses in India are at Bharat Forge (15000 Ton) and L&THSSF (L&T-NPCIL JV) Hazira( 9000 Ton I think - planned 17000 Ton). All the presses mentioned above including MIDHANI, L&SSHF, Bharat Forge are all hammer presses for Steel applications and cannot be used for stamping applications required for Metals like Aluminium, Titanium and Magnesium stamps commonly used in Aerospace.

Maybe they can make it work without going too high end like F-35 and making some compromises.

For Aerospace, HAL has a 3000-tonne water hydraulic press with extrusion capability for Aerospace applications and this will probably be used to forge it at HAL after the die is received from Midhani.

HAL can probably accelerate this process by building a 50000 Ton or 60000 Ton press. There are very few of these in the world as their need is only for high precision aerospace components mainly large civil aircraft.

Few were built in the US as part of USAF's Heavy Press Program in the 1970's which are still used for all US applications including civil aircraft at Boeing

France has an USSR's (Ukranian) NKMZ built 75000 Ton press which is used by Airbus, Boeing etc. & other European companies. There's one in Ukraine and one in Russia (both 75000 Ton soviet era).

Japan and China each recently built theirs - circa 2013.

We haven't built one as there is no civilian aircraft manufacturing to make it viable but either HAL or MIDHANI or HINDALCO have to dip their hands in it now.

Based on American data, Each press of this size is expected to cost around USD 200 Million to USD 400 Million atleast which will have to come out of GoI capex. Won't be economically viable without govt funding as there is very little commercial need since we don't have a civil aircraft program. Even for Civil applications most of these forges were never economically viable to build and operate and were always govt funded. F-35 project had to pay USD 100 Million just to repair one of the presses at Alcoa.

HAL uses this old soviet era 3000 Ton closed die forge press seen in this video at Timestamp 7:41 that was procured during the MiG-23 license building era