AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[ersakthivel]

more power always better as long as mileage doesn't suffer ..

BTW F 35 is a single engine aircraft.

AMCA - dual.

we have signed up for F 414 IN S6, not yet with snecma..

so is there any chance for F 414 to get in AMCA ?

with F414, AMCA can be airborne at least 5 years ahead ..

The concrete specs like empty weight and max takeoff weight is needed to know how much engine thrust is needed.

And as the program proceeeds there will be more changes for extra facilities from IAF.This is bound to happen as new developments are gona come up needing more power and weight requirements.

So we should aim a bit higher with engine thrust as there is a real possibility that that like k-9 new engine may end up with 10 percent shortfall in wet thrust.

Thats why it makes sense to have the EPE version as back up for AMCA .And 2x90 kn k-10 won't be enough for around 18 ton empty weight of AMCA

 

[SATISH]

The concrete specs like empty weight and max takeoff weight is needed to know how much engine thrust is needed.

And as the program proceeeds there will be more changes for extra facilities from IAF.This is bound to happen as new developments are gona come up needing more power and weight requirements.

So we should aim a bit higher with engine thrust as there is a real possibility that that like k-9 new engine may end up with 10 percent shortfall in wet thrust.

Thats why it makes sense to have the EPE version as back up for AMCA .And 2x90 kn k-10 won't be enough for around 18 ton empty weight of AMCA

Yes I get your point but a 2x100Kn engine will be enough to power the AMCA. 2x130 Kn engine is an overkill for the AMCA. But it is a 5th Gen engine that we are talking about with lesser parts and less maintainance intensive. The Kaveri K10 might not be a true 5th Gen engine. The best will be 2x120 KN engines.Having more thrust than required is going to put more stress on the airframe which is not good.

 

[ersakthivel]

Yes I get your point but a 2x100Kn engine will be enough to power the AMCA. 2x130 Kn engine is an overkill for the AMCA. But it is a 5th Gen engine that we are talking about with lesser parts and less maintainance intensive. The Kaveri K10 might not be a true 5th Gen engine. The best will be 2x120 KN engines.Having more thrust than required is going to put more stress on the airframe which is not good.

Considering the present k-9 experience if we aim for 130 kn for each of the two engines , we may end up with 120 kn engine ,factoring in the worst case scenario.

If we follow a JV from the start we may achieve the targeted 120 kn thrust without deviation as foreign engine majors are bound to have more experience in this field.
For tejas ge engine was available as backup. There is no back up engine identified for AMCA I think or does IAF has any idea of using the higher thrust version of GE-414 engine as back up or during the testing period?

So going for a bit higher target will cover up any shortfalls on the way.


Also is there any discussion between IAF and ADA about tejas mk-3 as stealth version, which is being hinted at by DRDO chief V.K.Saraswath , when he said the previous configuration studies done before the final ASR of AMCA given by IAF ,by ADA will be used for TEJAS-mk-3? Is there any official project or it is a inhouse design work by ADA as one of the concepts for study?

Thanks for the reply.

 

[p2prada]

The K-10 will be a 5th gen engine. Actually IAF seems to be looking at an engine superior to the M88-3 ECO for the K-10.

AMCA is only said to be between 16 to 18 tons. It doesn't need 130KN engines or even 120KN engines. It needs regular 90KN engines for a greater than EF/Rafale T/W ratio.

At 16 to 18 tons, that would be 9 to 10 tons empty weight, 4 to 5 tons of fuel and 2 tons of internal payload, according to ADA. A 90KN engine will give a T/W ratio of greater than 1 at this spec. That will keep it on par with Rafale and EF, but with 5th gen advantages. Imagine a Rafale with 90KN engines and that will be the AMCA. If we consider growth prospects of the 90KN engine to 120KN over a 20 year period, then any weight gains made during the time will be taken care of with a corresponding decrease in range.

At 16 tons and 90KN engine, mind blowing specs. At 18 ton and 90KN engines, pretty much what's on EF and Rafale today. At 18 ton and 100KN engines, again mind blowing specs. Anything higher and 4 to 5 tons of fuel may not be enough with expected levels of SFC on the M88-3. As of today, the design for M88-3 ECO is for 90KN with future growth prospects.

F-35 is a 24 to 25 ton fighter. In that respect, it is a heavy fighter. It's requirement for a 180KN engine is significantly different and is more in the F-15 weight class, albeit with lower T/W ratio, but better than SH minus the range.

 

[p2prada]

120 to 130 KN engines will bring it to PAKFA's T/W level. But the Russians level of R&D is entirely off the charts for us to catch up. For one, we will need to be able to carry fuel that can burn for enough time. PAKFA will manage with 11 to 12 tons of fuel, AMCA may not. Next the engine itself should be light and deliver huge amount of thrust compared to its weight. Expecting that from France is too much.

@SATISH

Did you hear the latest news? PAKFA's engine is expected to be 30% lighter than 117S and deliver 176KN. That will push the engine past 17:1 T/W ratio. This is consistent with the earlier news of the Russians having surpassed the F-135 in T/W.

This level of R&D is impossible to expect here. Even the Americans will be hard pressed to catch up, let alone the Chinese. Especially considering first flight test of Item 30 is planned for 2014.

 

[cir]

Try to learn how to walk before you dream about running。

This is my advice to our Indian friends。

This is 2012. And I will bet my underwear on the certainty that， come 2022， you guys will still be discussing AMCA on paper。

 

[SPIEZ]

Try to learn how to walk before you dream about running。

This is my advice to our Indian friends。

This is 2012. And I will bet my underwear on the certainty that， come 2022， you guys will still be discussing AMCA on paper。

And I ll bet on mine, that even in 2022, China will stop copying

 

[bose]

Try to learn how to walk before you dream about running。

This is my advice to our Indian friends。

This is 2012. And I will bet my underwear on the certainty that， come 2022， you guys will still be discussing AMCA on paper。

Simply FU$$ Off !!!

Who has has asked for your advice ??

Champion of cheats !!

 

[ersakthivel]

Try to learn how to walk before you dream about running。

This is my advice to our Indian friends。

This is 2012. And I will bet my underwear on the certainty that， come 2022， you guys will still be discussing AMCA on paper。

Welcome expert opinion!!!!! Can you give us a your educated guess for the question when will the J-20 get a chinese 5th gen engine?

 

[ersakthivel]

120 to 130 KN engines will bring it to PAKFA's T/W level. But the Russians level of R&D is entirely off the charts for us to catch up. For one, we will need to be able to carry fuel that can burn for enough time. PAKFA will manage with 11 to 12 tons of fuel, AMCA may not. Next the engine itself should be light and deliver huge amount of thrust compared to its weight. Expecting that from France is too much.

@SATISH

Did you hear the latest news? PAKFA's engine is expected to be 30% lighter than 117S and deliver 176KN. That will push the engine past 17:1 T/W ratio. This is consistent with the earlier news of the Russians having surpassed the F-135 in T/W.

This level of R&D is impossible to expect here. Even the Americans will be hard pressed to catch up, let alone the Chinese. Especially considering first flight test of Item 30 is planned for 2014.

Can you explain at what TRL level that the PAKFA engine is at?

You are writing page length articles on supposed immaturity of epe engine tech,can you give us an insight of the maturity of pakfa engine which is supposed to enter service in 4 yerars time?

 

[p2prada]

Can you explain at what TRL level that the PAKFA engine is at?

You are writing page length articles on supposed immaturity of epe engine tech,can you give us an insight of the maturity of pakfa engine which is supposed to enter service in 4 yerars time?

You are bringing in Western rating system into Russian.

We have basic info about Item 30 as of today. But this is a sure shot development program which has already been initiated and planned, right from design stage to serial production. Meaning this project is a definite one, just like F-35, regardless of the delays. All we know is it will fly with the T-50 in 2014. That's plenty to know actual ground tests are being carried out today.

The fact is we want the FGFA in 2019, not in 2014. LCA's timeline is not realistic with the development timeframe for EPE. PAKFA/FGFA's timeline is realistic and that's what matters.

 

[ersakthivel]

You are bringing in Western rating system into Russian.

We have basic info about Item 30 as of today. But this is a sure shot development program which has already been initiated and planned, right from design stage to serial production. Meaning this project is a definite one, just like F-35, regardless of the delays. All we know is it will fly with the T-50 in 2014. That's plenty to know actual ground tests are being carried out today.

The fact is we want the FGFA in 2019, not in 2014. LCA's timeline is not realistic with the development timeframe for EPE. PAKFA/FGFA's timeline is realistic and that's what matters.

The INS6 notation in the GE-414-INS6 is a pointed reference to 6 stage epe derivative according to decklander's post. Because the pervious 414 versions were 7 pressure stage engines not 6 stage. A wide swept 3 dimensional fan is introduced in all EPE derivatives. And one pressure stage is eliminated along the introduction of this wide swept fan.
From the begining the mk-2 engine is called INS6 with reference as being the highest thrust variant based on the EPE derivative tech.

Anyway lets wait for the official announcement from next aeroindia in this regard or from the naval tejas program for this.

i do wish that pakfa engine finishes development in time and fgfa introduced in time for IAF.
Lets hope the russians deliver a reliable engine for pakfa as their future standing in avionic world depends upon this engine ,they would give it their best shot to make it powerful and reliable.

 

[SATISH]

120 to 130 KN engines will bring it to PAKFA's T/W level. But the Russians level of R&D is entirely off the charts for us to catch up. For one, we will need to be able to carry fuel that can burn for enough time. PAKFA will manage with 11 to 12 tons of fuel, AMCA may not. Next the engine itself should be light and deliver huge amount of thrust compared to its weight. Expecting that from France is too much.

@SATISH

Did you hear the latest news? PAKFA's engine is expected to be 30% lighter than 117S and deliver 176KN. That will push the engine past 17:1 T/W ratio. This is consistent with the earlier news of the Russians having surpassed the F-135 in T/W.

This level of R&D is impossible to expect here. Even the Americans will be hard pressed to catch up, let alone the Chinese. Especially considering first flight test of Item 30 is planned for 2014.

Well havent gotten in contact with my Saturn guy...will get more info from him before i talk.

 

[p2prada]

Well havent gotten in contact with my Saturn guy...will get more info from him before i talk.

Yeah. PM, if you do.

Anyway,
Testing of the new engine for the PAK FA in 2014 | idrw.org

cientific production association "Saturn" has began development of a new engine for bench testing in PAk-Fa aircraft . has informed by Yevgeny Marchuk, General Designer, Director of the Scientific and Technical Center , part of the "Saturn". Engine will begin test in 2014.

"Engine will be ready in two years, and will begin bench testing. This – essentially a new engine, so it took a long time" – said Marchuk. According to him, the weight of the new power plant will be 30 percent less than that of the AL-41F1 ("Item 117"³, the modified version of the engine AL-41F1S for the Su-35), known as the engine of the first stage.

As expected, the life-cycle costs will also be almost a third less than that of the AL-41F1S and according Marchukova, "it also will be cheaper." New engine for the PAK FA engine known as the second phase or "Type 30"³ will be significantly different from the currently used "Products 117"³. The latter will be installed in the first production aircraft, until the end of the development of "Type 30"³.

A new propulsion system for the T-50 is still unknown for many. According to preliminary data from the AL-41F1 engine will differ , will have increased thrust and improved fuel efficiency. According to unconfirmed reports, the power plant will be able to develop a thrust of 107 kN in cruise flight and 176 kN after burning mode.

In April 2011, the general director of "Saturn," Ilya Fedorov said that the establishment of the second stage engine is ahead of schedule, and the supply of new power plants is scheduled for 2015 informed the Russian Defense Ministry . In the same year, the Russian air force to will get the first production T-50.

I am just speculating here, but I think there are three engines for PAKFA. 117 at 15 tons, uprated 117 at 16.5 tons and Item 30 at 17.6 tons.

IAF only mentioned that the engine they have chosen will be higher than the 117. No idea what they mean, the uprated 117 or the new 30. I am thinking it would be the 30 while keeping the uprated 117 for prototype testing and a possible MLU program for Su-35 at a later date.

 

[Tshering22]

If reasonable specs were issued AMCA will fly in 15years,IfIAF want's a fancy plan with more stealth,more TWR,and more weaponload then it should be pursued as separate project under another name.

Tejas - Feature - The Light Combat Aircraft Story by Air Marshal MSD Wollen (Retd)

For the LCA the following approach was undertaken as per the article.



Trying to better F-22 in all aspects will take longer time and it must be taken into account and a less demanding AMCA with stealth as a prime requisite with optimum weapon load and range in 12 to 14 ton weight class for 2x90 kn k-10 must be proceeded fast.

If people want bigger plane with 16to 18 ton weight class with 2x130 kn engine it should be done as separate project with realistic time line.IAF should be asked to set aside 50 percent of the project cost from their budget.

Then they will know the importance of giving realistic specs after tech audit and freezing the finalized specs. Instead it took time till 2011 august for IAFto finalize the specs.

The chinese 5th gen is flying in 2012.IAFis freezing the specs in 2011!!!!!!.Who will hold them responsible for the delay between 2005 and 2011?

The chinese are doing 2 or 3 5th gen stealths at the same time,We too must follow the same path with a realistic amca in one project and more demanding plane in another project.

The chinese leadership is not a tenth as bureaucratic as ours is.

In our system, the other member of cabinet has to be convinced. Once IAF decided which lollypop it wants (after years of contemplating), it will set forth its impossible demands out of a shoestring funding. Then a committee will be setup to review the specs which will take another 5 years. After that once the government changes, IAF will remember some more new specs which will delay the project then after lots of delays the project will be sanctioned with cost escalations.

Then HAL and ADA will start working on the design which will take a decade.

Its the same cycle again and again.

The problem is with the system.

 

[sasi]

AMCA yet to take off from drawing board | idrw.org

 

[ersakthivel]

thats what happens when the user keeps changing requirement.May be it is the shortfalls on the FGFA front ,(where the FGFA is not according to the IAF specification of 100 percent stealth and two seater type ), that is forcing IAF to insist on a much stringent requirement for AMCA. A back up program like tejas mk-3 is essential in case the AMCA drags on.The AMCA is going to be the truly F-22 equivalent stealth platform in IAF as PAKFA isgoing to be in the league of F-35.

 

[ersakthivel]

The chinese leadership is not a tenth as bureaucratic as ours is.

In our system, the other member of cabinet has to be convinced. Once IAF decided which lollypop it wants (after years of contemplating), it will set forth its impossible demands out of a shoestring funding. Then a committee will be setup to review the specs which will take another 5 years. After that once the government changes, IAF will remember some more new specs which will delay the project then after lots of delays the project will be sanctioned with cost escalations.

Then HAL and ADA will start working on the design which will take a decade.

Its the same cycle again and again.

The problem is with the system.

AMCA yet to take off from drawing board | idrw.org

This inept system has already taken it's toll onthe AMCAA program.From 2005 to 2013 I am reading about a projeact called AMCA all over the web A tail less design was first unveiled then a raptor like figure was unveiled and now a hornet type figure is doing rounds.
Three weight specificatios of AMCA are doing the rounds on the net.
1.25 ton
2.20 ton
3.And finally 16 to 18 ton.
Who is responsible for these 3 different configurations and when will the design start?
Who is responsiblle for finalzing the ASR? And who changes it again? And who finalizes it again? And who will change it in the future again?

Do people think extra specs in ASR are just like additional items in a shopping list that can be dded as per their whims and fancies?
Do they have any technical background to understand that for every change in ASR the program slips by 5 or 6 years or sometime becomes even unviable ?
The RAPTOR flew in 2000.Then why it took 13 years even to frame the ASR?
Is it the responsibility of IAF chief? so the problem is every IAF chief has a max duration of 3 or 4 years and ASR keeps changing every 3 years?
Or is there a committee for this purpose in IAF?Why is MOD allowing this kind of hallucination about the specs?
The chinese J-20 flies now because it's specs must have been finalized 15 years before atleast.
So even in finalizing ASR are we behind china by 15 years?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Only when the PLAF flies the prototype IAF realizes what a 5th gen stealth is all about and hurries with the ASR.
Strange the above mentioned site gives no info on this.Just like a bride in wedding , they report whatever is given to them by the authorities.
Then they will jump like monkies that the AMCA program started in 2004 still hasn't produced a fighter after 25 years and keep on dumping bullshit forever.

 

[Sam2012]

Shiv Aroor, watermarking every image he can lay his hands on. I bet even the photograph of his first born would come with livefist watermark

Anyhow, the correct caption of the image is :-



From:- http://www.nal.res.in/pdf/ch1dir.pdf
So its too early to read anything into the image as it might be one of the many configurations under study.

It looks more like a F-18 , is this because boeing is partnering the AMCA project?

 

[Austin]

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: EXPRESS EXCLUSIVE | India’s stealth fighter dream takes shape in Bangalore | AMCA configuration in final stages | Catch the 1:8 scale model at Aero India