AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[WARREN SS]

Abe yaar, do you know what profit is? It all depends on selling price and cost price. Reliance case is very different, they didn't deliver on the contract. Here, I am saying private companies are all concerned with profit by pushing their particular products and the customer buys it then it means profit for them

Profit is Core for any business to grow why would they invest if there is no profit
Its Similar for Lockheed ,BAE ,Airbus or Boeing Same goes for Indian defense firms

 

[Chinmoy]

One small question have we devloped stealth like plasma tech

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No.... IMO we would go with the Indium Tin Oxide coating which is reportedly being used in Tejas for start.

 

[vayuu1]

No.... IMO we would go with the Indium Tin Oxide coating which is reportedly being used in Tejas for start.

But that is relatively older compared to plasma stealth don't you think.

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[Chinmoy]

But that is relatively older compared to plasma stealth don't you think.

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Yes it is, but it is a tried and tested and more then that established technology then the theoritical plasma stealth tech.

 

[BON PLAN]

Why not posted here? Photos from Aero India, quoting Indo-Pacific SCS Info:

A kind of twin engines F35 (with its bad rear view canopy), with F22 air intakes.

 

[Kchontha]

Do they develop body conformal antennae for amca?


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[Bleh]

With Tejas evolving into MWF (that's to have semi-stealth) it looks like AMCA too might get heavier & high-endurance.

Right now AMCA has higher empty/takeoff weight & fuel capacity, thus range. But both are pegged at similar weapons payload.

But earlier both were supposed to have 70-110kn class engines & they are currently projecting 76-107 for Kaveri.
But the "Ganga" engine is planned to be of 123-137kn class! MWF shouldn't be able to use it without considerable design changes... also its range would take a hit.

All going well, both platforms might start with Kaveri engine.
But i think they're planning on steroiding the AMCA into a borderline heavy-class fighter, now that the FGFA project has gone down the drains & that's why they're developing the other powerful one.

HAL has been harping about how making bigger jets would easier with the basics in place with MWF.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

With Tejas evolving into MWF (that's to have semi-stealth) it looks like AMCA too might get heavier & high-endurance.
View attachment 33716
Right now AMCA has higher empty/takeoff weight & fuel capacity, thus range. But both are pegged at similar weapons payload.

But earlier both were supposed to have 70-110kn class engines & they are currently projecting 76-107 for Kaveri.
But the "Ganga" engine is planned to be of 123-137kn class! MWF shouldn't be able to use it without considerable design changes... also its range would take a hit.
View attachment 33717
All going well, both platforms might start with Kaveri engine.
But i think they're planning on steroiding the AMCA into a borderline heavy-class fighter, now that the FGFA project has gone down the drains & that's why they're developing the other powerful one.

HAL has been harping about how making bigger jets would easier with the basics in place with MWF.

Both MWF & AMCA will have 70-110KN engine. It is impossible to use any other engine for a plane like MWF with MToW of 17.5tons.

AMCA will have twin engine of 110kN similar to MWF But due to its role of air superiority or deep strike, it will need higher speed and hence will have over powered engines to give it supercruise well above 1Mach without afterburners

Also, there is not 123-137kN engine being developed by India. The 123kN is Su30 "Al31F" engine and the 137kN is Su35 or Super Su30 "Al41F" engine.

 

[cyclops]

GTRE some time back floated an RFI for a 'twin test cell' for a 130kN class engine.

 

[Bleh]

It is impossible to use any other engine for a plane like MWF with MToW of 17.5tons.

That's what i said...

AMCA will have twin engine of 110kN similar to MWF But due to its role of air superiority or deep strike, it will need higher speed and hence will have over powered engines to give it supercruise well above 1Mach without afterburners...

...The 123kN is Su30 "Al31F" engine and the 137kN is Su35 or Super Su30 "Al41F" engine.

Old info, everybody here knows.

Also, there is not 123-137kN engine being developed by India.

And you know that how?

BTW @amit19 @cyclops Where did you find those?

 

[patriots]

India is developing a engine of 110 kn..

Confirmed sjha...........

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

And you know that how?

India already has Al31F engine which has been fully indigenised with 100% manufacturing from nuts and bolts to blades. There is no need to make another engine of same class. Moreover, India does not have any plane other than Su30 which can use engines of that high thrust. None makes engines without having a suitable use

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

GTRE some time back floated an RFI for a 'twin test cell' for a 130kN class engine.

View attachment 33734

Testing will always have margin. We can't have testing system for 110kN engine as the engine while being developed may turn to be 115kN in ultra-mode. Also, every engine is capable of being overboosted beyong the rated power. Moreover, India has Su30 engine manufacturing too and hence it is best if the test bed can fit all engines which India has or will have. Maximum limit of test bed is not same as actual power of engine

 

[Bleh]

India already has Al31F engine which has been fully indigenised with 100% manufacturing from nuts and bolts to blades. There is no need to make another engine of same class. Moreover, India does not have any plane other than Su30 which can use engines of that high thrust. None makes engines without having a suitable use

You can keep repeating that as many times you want, but i'd prefer these two over your words.

Neither MWF norwasn't given the (no-so-reliable & fuel-guzzling) AL31 like J-10 does despite being of comparable wing area, payload, loaded weight etc... that tells me all i need to know.

 

[Advaidhya Tiwari]

You can keep repeating that as many times you want, but i'd prefer these two over your words.

MWF wasn't given the (no-so-reliable & fuel-guzzling) AL-31 like J-10 does despite being of comparable sizes... that tells me all i need to know.

Where is the calculation EXCEL sheet from? DRDO or some online forum like Bharat-Rakshak? If it is not from DRDO, it is to be discarded.

Also, MWF has MToW of 17.5tons whereas J10 has MToW of 19.5tons. J10 is comparable to F16 in weight class. So, it will need about 12-13% extra thrust than MWF and hence it uses AL31 engine. Though J10 looks like MWF, it is slightly bigger in size and uses more metals (compared to composites) due to which it has higher empty weight.

 

[Eastman]

India already has Al31F engine which has been fully indigenised with 100% manufacturing from nuts and bolts to blades. There is no need to make another engine of same class. Moreover, India does not have any plane other than Su30 which can use engines of that high thrust. None makes engines without having a suitable use

You cant put a truck Engine in a Passanger car, even if possible, it wont be practical

 

[Bleh]

Where is the calculation EXCEL sheet from? DRDO or some online forum like Bharat-Rakshak? If it is not from DRDO, it is to be discarded.

Asked OPs in last post for original source... so don't discard them yet.

Also, MWF has MToW of 17.5tons whereas J10 has MToW of 19.5tons.

Because of its lower thrust engine!

As i said earlier... Despite higher empty weight J-10's wing area, payload, loaded weight etc. are all comparable to MWF.
AL31 would also be ideal for 5th Gen AMCA to achieve T/W ratio comparable to Su-35 & Su-57.

I believe the "Ganga" engine (if it exists) is supposed to be a sleeker & lighter counterpart of AL31's class with 3D TVC for AMCA+.

You feel free to disagree.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

You can keep repeating that as many times you want, but i'd prefer these two over your words.

Neither MWF norwasn't given the (no-so-reliable & fuel-guzzling) AL31 like J-10 does despite being of comparable wing area, payload, loaded weight etc... that tells me all i need to know.

So, might be possible that AMCA may be upgraded to heavy class like F-22, Su-57 or J-20? Or another 5G aircraft of heavyweight class is under development in India as FGFA is cancelled?

 

[cyclops]

@Bleh from a DRDO tender from 3 years ago.

India already has Al31F engine which has been fully indigenised with 100% manufacturing from nuts and bolts to blades. There is no need to make another engine of same class. Moreover, India does not have any plane other than Su30 which can use engines of that high thrust. None makes engines without having a suitable use

Al31 and all its analogues are not owned by India, its IP remains with Russia & we can never truly be free to use it as we please.
It is only prudent to develop a 130kN class turbofan in India where 100% of its IP resides in India.

And no I don't believe all of the raw materials for the Al31FP comes from India; imports do happen, so you can't really say we manufacture 100% of the Al31 in India maybe majority of it but definitely not 100%.

No country is going to give you all of the critical tech that goes into a turbofan engine.
After all, turbofans are an extremely coveted technology, there are more countries that make nukes than those who can make a proper functioning turbofan.

HAL has also partially indigenised the Su-30MKI's giant AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha. Fifty-three per cent of the engine by cost has been indigenised, with the remaining 47 per cent consisting of high-tech composites and special alloys - proprietary secrets that Russia will not part with. Even so, HAL builds 87.7 per cent of the engine's components in India.
https://wap.business-standard.com/a...-hal-s-growing-capability-114102300636_1.html

Stankoimport said in a release that the equipment to be supplied to India would be of "general industrial purpose" - meaning that it does not fall into banned items under Russia''s international non-proliferation obligations.
https://m.timesofindia.com/india/HAL-inks-300-million-Sukhoi-deal/articleshow/9008.cms

Nashik facility of the firm is domestically manufacturing over 31,500 components that are integrated into the fighter jet, in addition partially indigenizing its AL-31FP engines, which are built in Koraput, Odisha, India.
http://www.defenseworld.net/news/15..._2015_16_From_Raw_Material_Phase#.XKWX-qBN2z4

Also, Al31 might have a high thrust but that does not mean it's a perfect or an uber modern engine that conforms to all of IAF & IN's requirements.

India is a land of extremes & you don't just need a high thrust engine, you need one that is fuel efficient and can provide optimal thrust in all environments and altitudes.
This is exactly why GTRE went for a variable cycle function for the Kaveri from the get go.

Have some faith in GTRE, the new engine will indeed be way different & definitely be more advanced than the Al31FP.

Testing will always have margin. We can't have testing system for 110kN engine as the engine while being developed may turn to be 115kN in ultra-mode. Also, every engine is capable of being overboosted beyong the rated power. Moreover, India has Su30 engine manufacturing too and hence it is best if the test bed can fit all engines which India has or will have. Maximum limit of test bed is not same as actual power of engine

On the contrary.

These are the very specific engine requirements posted in the same RFI which the test cell should be able to accommodate.

Notice the dry & wet thrust requirements.

Now, we don't technically know if these are the exact specs of the engine but I doubt the deviation will be too high either.
After all, a 110kN class engine and a 130kN class engine are two very different class of aero engines.

 

[Bleh]

So, might be possible that AMCA may be upgraded to heavy class like F-22, Su-57 or J-20? Or another 5G aircraft of heavyweight class is under development in India as FGFA is cancelled?

Completely my personal speculation man... based on recent developments!

Taking in consideration that:

1. MWF is now equal to AMCA in terms of payload with borrowed tech & stealth features;
2. FGFA is cancelled & we have no backup for a high-end but the need for one;
3. They claiming how it'd be easier for us to now make bigger fighter jets based on what we have;
4. This unconfirmed "Ganga" engine;
5. General Electric offering enhanced F414 engine with 116kn with 1% improved fuel burn over F414-INS6 engines with negligible weight gain. (They have every reason to go for it, but that'll end Kaveri, leaving only this one in business.)

Maybe not Su-30, J-20 size, but something larger than f-18 might surely come up based on AMCA that can be powered by 123-137kn class engine with similar T/W ratio.