AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[smestarz]

Basically going by history of LCA, it might be best to design a plane in such a way that we have plan B.
for example we design using say GE F-414 engine, but might help if we also consider what if we need to use Kaveri or EJ-230 ?

The problem would be that we have to take some dimensions of engine and then to build plane around it, or build a plane with some dimensions and then try to design an engine that fits in the plane., The second approach is risky and surely going to take delays

IAF wantsc120 KN thrust engines..Don't know why 2 GE414s can't be used... unknown engine causes delay uncertainty...with GE 414, at worst, it would be stealth plane with carrying capacity of Raffle or F18...

 

[Kay]

FBW? We have reached the Era of Fly by Light,. Kawasaki P-1 is already using this system.
We dont have a very powerful AESA. and now there are developments that call for DIGITAL AESA (more capable than AESA) how about receivers, Jammers and also EW warfare suite? Also Targeting pod will be imported too. In Avionics there is very less Indian content.

Generally a lot of stuff have fancy marketing names ... overpromise and underperform...but still none of that would matter if the engine was Indian

 

[TPFscopes]

AMCA is still a paper tiger, tell me what content is fixed for AMCA? How about talking about the engine or Radar? What is indian? Just the presentation and of course design which does seem to be infulenced by YF-23

What types of similarities you find between both jets?

Initial Airframes will have GE or EJ Engines which will be replaced by K9+ or K10 Engines.
UTTAM AESA is proposed to be used with AESA which will be lates replaced by GaN based AESA which is under development by DRDO.
Also after successful FBW , FBL system is under development at DRDO Labs.

 

[xeaaex]

FBW? We have reached the Era of Fly by Light,. Kawasaki P-1 is already using this system.
We dont have a very powerful AESA. and now there are developments that call for DIGITAL AESA (more capable than AESA) how about receivers, Jammers and also EW warfare suite? Also Targeting pod will be imported too. In Avionics there is very less Indian content.

As far as i know light wire or power wing change the control system design, just the control signals are transmitted using wire or optical fibre etc.

 

[TPFscopes]

As far as i know light wire or power wing change the control system design, just the control signals are transmitted using wire or optical fibre etc.

The basic fact to switch from FBW to FBL is that , the signal transmission through fiber is faster along with lesser attenuation.
When you already know the FBW than it will not be too hard to stitch it to FBL. No-one wants to reinvent the wheel.

 

[TPFscopes]

This pic is for those who think India lacks in AVIONICS

 

[smestarz]

Did you follow AMCA closely? Before, its design was a tailless delta,
The wings are similar, And you do wait, you will see the exhaust change drastically becauuse those exhaust are general exhaust and not for 5th Gen (sawed exhaust to reduce heat signature)

What types of similarities you find between both jets?

Initial Airframes will have GE or EJ Engines which will be replaced by K9+ or K10 Engines.
UTTAM AESA is proposed to be used with AESA which will be lates replaced by GaN based AESA which is under development by DRDO.
Also after successful FBW , FBL system is under development at DRDO Labs.

 

[smestarz]

There is big difference in what we produce and what the user wants,
If it was not the case then LCA would have been inducted long while back using MM Radar and by now we would have started incorporating AESA on the earlier production Models. Further by this time IAF would not be crying about NUMBERS. But here we are.,

Like I said, we do make avionics, but are we making avionics that are deemed for actual 5th Gen plane? Is the user accepting those or will have objection?

Just for example. for AESA radar, I believe we are producing Gallium arsenide TRMs while France, USA and Russia are already using Gallium Nitride GaN modules., this is what I am talking about, These small small steps are coming little too late. Baby steps cannot come at ate of 18 my friend

This pic is for those who think India lacks in AVIONICS

View attachment 15993

 

[smestarz]

It seems if its Indian then there is big matter. Our users (IAF and IN ) are not so comfortable when the plane or its engine or Radar is India, Do read the saga of Tejas.

Generally a lot of stuff have fancy marketing names ... overpromise and underperform...but still none of that would matter if the engine was Indian

 

[smestarz]

And what part are the components of Engine here?
There are TRM modules for Radar, but what we are making are GaA TRM modules and the world (of avionics) has moved to more efficient and better GaN .. in a way it would be similar to coming with Mechanical radar in the era of AESA, Of course we can use it, but would the forces accept it without ANY OBJECTIONS?
That my friend is the important point.

This pic is for those who think India lacks in AVIONICS

View attachment 15993

 

[TPFscopes]

And what part are the components of Engine here?
There are TRM modules for Radar, but what we are making are GaA TRM modules and the world (of avionics) has moved to more efficient and better GaN .. in a way it would be similar to coming with Mechanical radar in the era of AESA, Of course we can use it, but would the forces accept it without ANY OBJECTIONS?
That my friend is the important point.

Initially various designs (canardless delta, Pure delta, Delta with tail etc) are considered as usual what others did in initial design phase and select the present design to develop an Airframes.

For your kind information, ADA said that during flight trials and taxi trials ,they will use lower thurst Engines like F414-in6 but will later replace it with K9+ or K10 means they have about 5-6years for Engine development.

For initial Operations AMCA will have Uttam AESA than after may be upgraded with DRDO GaN based AESA.

Drdo's Next Generation Gan Radar Technology

If you always think about others (like what they have and what they are doing) than sure you will not be successful anyway. Keep going with your footsteps will help you to grow up.

 

[smestarz]

Nice reply but few things I would like to add
We know how long it took last time to design an engine (READ KAVERI) and its still not acceptable to users (IAF and IN) so, if they are saying 5-6 years development, it might be safe to assume a decade. Expert countries like Russia are also finding delays in their engine designing and these countries have vast knowledge and experience in designing and producing an engine. Thus the engine.. UNCERTAIN.
But one good step is that they are using F-414 and going on that way the development will not stop.

This GaN wafter that is shown is a recent development, still a long way off to go into actual production. So another few years at least?

UTTAM is JV with israel actually its an Israeli radar with indian name..


You are right that we should learn ourselves, but unfortunately whatever we are producing by our own knowledge and experience (read Tejas) is not acceptable to the user at all @!!! AND THIS IS THE PROBLEM

Initially various designs (canardless delta, Pure delta, Delta with tail etc) are considered as usual what others did in initial design phase and select the present design to develop an Airframes.

For your kind information, ADA said that during flight trials and taxi trials ,they will use lower thurst Engines like F414-in6 but will later replace it with K9+ or K10 means they have about 5-6years for Engine development.

For initial Operations AMCA will have Uttam AESA than after may be upgraded with DRDO GaN based AESA.

Drdo's Next Generation Gan Radar Technology

If you always think about others (like what they have and what they are doing) than sure you will not be successful anyway. Keep going with your footsteps will help you to grow up.

 

[scatterStorm]

That means we will have first flight by 21
Hopefully

Let's just say by 25 in worse case scenario.

What's wrong with avionics? We already have the best flybywire. Only part we need to focus and get immediately is the engine.

Our private military industrial complex is not on level of even chinkies, let alone US so it's possible that almost half of the avionics will still be imported.

 

[scatterStorm]

Initially various designs (canardless delta, Pure delta, Delta with tail etc) are considered as usual what others did in initial design phase and select the present design to develop an Airframes.

For your kind information, ADA said that during flight trials and taxi trials ,they will use lower thurst Engines like F414-in6 but will later replace it with K9+ or K10 means they have about 5-6years for Engine development.

F414-E is the way to go IMHO, while proceeding with the Kaveri problems in tandem, which hopefully will take few more years to resolve. Metallurgical science is something we lack our expertise in, thus it may take few more years to better say that we have an indigenous engine that could produce a T/W of 90-110 KN, 125 is still a moonshot though.

 

[akk]

I think we should keep ge or safran for the foreseeable future for all single engine fighters. kaveri, even if certified and upgraded should be reserved for twin engine only. Its a new engine and it's difficult to be certain about long term performance specially as we don have a history of developing and running indigenous engines. One or 2 crashes and entire fleet will be grounded. All efforts will thus be in vain. Once there is atleast a few years of experience using kaveri in twin engine, it should be adapted in single engine planes.

 

[TPFscopes]

As I already mentioned that Nobody wants to reinvent the wheel.
It means we will not start the things from basic again and again.
Everything needs to be modified according to the user requirements.

For LCA orders, I want to say that IAF didn't show reluctance towards Mk1A and MK2. as far as mk1 is concerned, HAL said that they will Upgrade all mk1 jets to Mk1A later.

Nice reply but few things I would like to add
We know how long it took last time to design an engine (READ KAVERI) and its still not acceptable to users (IAF and IN) so, if they are saying 5-6 years development, it might be safe to assume a decade.

KAVERI was never pitched to IN/IAF. It was assumed to be used in LCA.
Right now , SNECMA is working with GTRE to remove hiccups found on KAVERI GTX 35VS than certify it for flights by 2018 end (18 months program).

UTTAM is JV with israel actually its an Israeli radar with indian name..

You're confused between MMR & UTTAM AESA.
That was MMR in which ELTA was roped in whereas UTTAM AESA is completely Indian development by LRDE.
MMR is being used on LCA mk1 whereas UTTAM will be installed on Mk1A and MK2.

 

[smestarz]

Indian air force sources are on record saying that kaveri has higher weight than their requirements

As I already mentioned that Nobody wants to reinvent the wheel.
It means we will not start the things from basic again and again.
Everything needs to be modified according to the user requirements.

For LCA orders, I want to say that IAF didn't show reluctance towards Mk1A and MK2. as far as mk1 is concerned, HAL said that they will Upgrade all mk1 jets to Mk1A later.


KAVERI was never pitched to IN/IAF. It was assumed to be used in LCA.
Right now , SNECMA is working with GTRE to remove hiccups found on KAVERI GTX 35VS than certify it for flights by 2018 end (18 months program).

You're confused between MMR & UTTAM AESA.
That was MMR in which ELTA was roped in whereas UTTAM AESA is completely Indian development by LRDE.
MMR is being used on LCA mk1 whereas UTTAM will be installed on Mk1A and MK2.

 

[TPFscopes]

Indian air force sources are on record saying that kaveri has higher weight than their requirements

GE F414-in6 has dry weight of 1176Kg where as Kaveri GTX-35vs has dry weight of 1181Kgs (which will be reduced after design Completion.

GE F414 has dry thurst of 57Kn & afterburner thurst of 97Kn where as Kaveri has 53Kn dry and 81Kn afterburner (proposed >95Kn) thurst.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

₹100 Crore was released during 2011 to 2013 for preliminary Design and it is 2017 now

So? preliminary design has been completed now and development design phase started.

 

[Chinmoy]

So? preliminary design has been completed now and development design phase started.

Kaha rehte ho bhai aaj kal?? Gadhe ke sing ban gaye ho .... :bounce::bounce::bounce: