Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[smestarz]

There is something funny I realized.
Some Rafale fanboys wants IAF and IN to use Rafale (twin engine planes) and to an extent that they want to scrap Tejas and buy Rafale
And same for Navy.

Thus in a way, if India ever ordered Rafale for IAF, it would be biggest operator (more than what French airforce has or plans to induct) no wonder why France is trying to resort to all things (including our own ACM manipulating the numbers to sell rafale to India


Here are some interesting nos for you Dassault Mirage 2000 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Variant Purpose Number
2000C Single-seat fighter 124
* Updated to 2000-5F specs 37
2000D Two-seat conventional strike 86
2000N Two-seat nuclear strike 75
2000B Two-seater with 2000C kit 30
Total 315

France still has 315 Mirage 2000 operational where as it has 91 Rafale thus a ratio of 3.46 Mirage 2000 to 1 Rafale.. NOTE THE RATIO.

Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
French Air Force – 91
French Navy – 40

Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
France had 71 Super Etendards which as per the page would be replaced by Rafale M by 2016, presently France uses 40 Rafale M and considering how slow the production is going, I feel the super entendard will not be replaced as France cannot afford to buy more Rafales, BTW Super Etendard is single engine plane


Now you seen the ratio of single engine planes in French air force which still continues to use 315 planes, and at the same time our IAF air chief want to scrap Tejas and buy Rafale, so what Single engine planes were we to have? Only Mirage 2000?

This does in a way prove the lack of vision with top brass of IAF, they seem to be either dumb as ----- or cannot be trusted like Crocodiles.

BTW how many of you know about the accidents of super etendards?
I read a bit below the page and noted Dassault-Breguet Super Étendard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It was interesting to know
Total nos produced 85
Argentina purchased 14 and 3 had accidents (pilot dead in all three cases)
French navy purchased 71 out of which 14 were lost to acccidents (about 20% loss)

Did you ever read an article calling super etendard as junk or flying offin? when 17 out of 85 planes crash? where as Su-30 MKI is called junk when only 5 out of 200+ plus planes had accident, but most of them have been found to be either by pilot error (when once the pilot actually switched of FBW system) and maintenance when the plastic on the plane lost its integrity and later caused the pilot to eject.

Few people have talked about availability, availability depends on plane as well as how it is maintained. A plane at factory is 90-100% available because its well maintained, but when it is used, the availablity rate depends on the plane and how well it is maintained.
For example, in France the availablity rate of Mirage 2000 is very good, but the one with IAF were having 0 availability when its entire fleet was grounded due to lack of spares. So now you might understand that when IAF talks of low availability of Su-30 MKI it is itself to blame and not point fingers at others. It is the same air force which had to ground its Mirage 2000 fleet due to lack of spares when other air forces which use them have no such problems.

Also one important point to stress is that Super Etendard (not a concern here) has had issues and accidents, but it never made a big news or people calling it junk. it seems to have accident rate competitive to IAF, and best part is that France has very good maintenance, and if a plane has accidents despite that due to failure of engine, then it is problem with plane, thus Dassault does not really produce 100% good planes, but they are quite good in spin doctoring.

 

[sgarg]

@smestarz, let us wait for official release for the correct costing. No point in guessing. There is a budget for MMRCA project and the cost needs to fit into that. Let us see how the negotiations go.

 

[smestarz]

@smestarz, let us wait for official release for the correct costing. No point in guessing. There is a budget for MMRCA project and the cost needs to fit into that. Let us see how the negotiations go.

IF we are going to sit, where is the fun of debating,
We might start a movie... NO FORUM FOR OLD MEN hahaha

 

[sgarg]

Rafale Accidents (from Wikipedia)

On 6 December 2007, a French Air Force twin-seat Rafale crashed during a training flight. The pilot, who suffered a black out, was killed in the accident.[207]
On 24 September 2009, after unarmed test flights, two French Navy Rafales returning to the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, collided in mid-air about 30 kilometres (19 mi) from the town of Perpignan in southwest France. One test pilot, identified as François Duflot, was killed in the accident, while the other was rescued.[208]
On 28 November 2010, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle crashed in the Arabian Sea. This aircraft was supporting Allied operations in Afghanistan. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by a rescue helicopter from the carrier. Later reports said the engine stopped after being starved of fuel due to confusion by the pilot in switching fuel tanks.[209]
On 2 July 2012, during a joint exercise, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle plunged into the Mediterranean Sea. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by an American search and rescue helicopter from the carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower

 

[jaciunite2]

Hey guys look at this
Su-35 cockpit-

 

[warrior monk]

It seems our govt has made up its mind in buying the french junk . The thing is we cannot win a war against china and again i like to reiterate we don't need 175 million $ french aircraft to shoot down Pakistani bought Chinese junk .
It seems IAF wants these fancy ass aircrafts to look good while doing exercises in foreign countries . After all we are a paper tiger which cannot manufacture a decent fighter plane .

 

[smestarz]

When there was discussion of Rafale Vs Eurofighter in many threads, Rafale fan boys did point out that Dassault / France prefer to do it themselves and they have enough experience. Also that in case India takes Eurofighter then we have to talk to 4 Govts (which is not true, we would have to talk to germany only and the other countries are in agreement to what Germany agrees) funnily what was supposed to be the strength of Dassault / Rafale seems now they are diluting it.

Was reading an article for nEUROn, here nEUROn Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) Demonstrator - Airforce Technology
And some interesting part about future production...

Dassault Aviation is the design authority with responsibility for the general design, system architecture, the flight control system and final assembly together with ground tests and flight tests. Dassault's UAV and UCAV design capability was developed under a sequence of experimental development and validation programmes, Aeronef validation experimental (AVE). Dassault started the AVE LogiDuc programme (AVE logistics to demonstrate UCAV) in 1999.

Saab Aerosystems, based in Linkoping, Sweden, is responsible for overall design, fuselage, avionics, fuel system, flight control, airworthiness, autonomy, multipayload capabilities, structural design and manufacture and ground and flight testing.

Dassault Aviation received the front and central fuselage section of the nEUROn UCAV demonstrator from Saab on 25 January 2011. Saab has built strong capability in UAV and UCAV technology with the SHARC Swedish highly advanced research configuration demonstrator, FILUR flying innovative low-observable unmanned research UAV,

In March 2004, the Hellenic Aerospace Industry (HAI) and Dassault signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) on the Dassault UCAV programme, which became the nEUROn programme. Under the terms of the MoU, HAI is responsible for the engine exhaust, the rear fuselage section and the test rig. The rear fuselage section was delivered to Dassault Aviation in January 2011.

EADS CASA of Spain is responsible for the wings and also the ground station and integration of the data link. EADS CASA and Dassault signed the MoU agreement in May 2005. EADS CASA delivered the wings of the nEUROn to Dassault in March 2011. The wings were shipped to Istres for final assembly.

Ruag in Switzerland is responsible for the weapons interface and wind tunnel testing.

Alenia Aeronautica in Italy is responsible for the development of the electrical power system, the air data system, development of the Smart Weapon Bay, and for flight testing. It delivered the weapon bay doors and mechanism of the nEUROn demonstrator to Dassault Aviation in May 2011

Wonder where is that attitude of France that we shall do it alone as we know the best and that Eurofighter because they have a JV it has limitations. With the sales of Rafale not even crossing 150, and Eurofighter going well past 200, seems France/Dassault now understand that it would be competitive to work together with other European powers that reduces cost of development.

 

[jaciunite2]

When there was discussion of Rafale Vs Eurofighter in many threads, Rafale fan boys did point out that Dassault / France prefer to do it themselves and they have enough experience. Also that in case India takes Eurofighter then we have to talk to 4 Govts (which is not true, we would have to talk to germany only and the other countries are in agreement to what Germany agrees) funnily what was supposed to be the strength of Dassault / Rafale seems now they are diluting it.

Was reading an article for nEUROn, here nEUROn Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) Demonstrator - Airforce Technology
And some interesting part about future production...

Dassault Aviation is the design authority with responsibility for the general design, system architecture, the flight control system and final assembly together with ground tests and flight tests. Dassault's UAV and UCAV design capability was developed under a sequence of experimental development and validation programmes, Aeronef validation experimental (AVE). Dassault started the AVE LogiDuc programme (AVE logistics to demonstrate UCAV) in 1999.

Saab Aerosystems, based in Linkoping, Sweden, is responsible for overall design, fuselage, avionics, fuel system, flight control, airworthiness, autonomy, multipayload capabilities, structural design and manufacture and ground and flight testing.

Dassault Aviation received the front and central fuselage section of the nEUROn UCAV demonstrator from Saab on 25 January 2011. Saab has built strong capability in UAV and UCAV technology with the SHARC Swedish highly advanced research configuration demonstrator, FILUR flying innovative low-observable unmanned research UAV,

In March 2004, the Hellenic Aerospace Industry (HAI) and Dassault signed a memorandum of understanding (MoU) on the Dassault UCAV programme, which became the nEUROn programme. Under the terms of the MoU, HAI is responsible for the engine exhaust, the rear fuselage section and the test rig. The rear fuselage section was delivered to Dassault Aviation in January 2011.

EADS CASA of Spain is responsible for the wings and also the ground station and integration of the data link. EADS CASA and Dassault signed the MoU agreement in May 2005. EADS CASA delivered the wings of the nEUROn to Dassault in March 2011. The wings were shipped to Istres for final assembly.

Ruag in Switzerland is responsible for the weapons interface and wind tunnel testing.

Alenia Aeronautica in Italy is responsible for the development of the electrical power system, the air data system, development of the Smart Weapon Bay, and for flight testing. It delivered the weapon bay doors and mechanism of the nEUROn demonstrator to Dassault Aviation in May 2011

Wonder where is that attitude of France that we shall do it alone as we know the best and that Eurofighter because they have a JV it has limitations. With the sales of Rafale not even crossing 150, and Eurofighter going well past 200, seems France/Dassault now understand that it would be competitive to work together with other European powers that reduces cost of development.

Uav and fighter planes are different things.And france make their own fighter because of work share agreement and their needed specification are different from other members.

 

[smestarz]

Uav and fighter planes are different things.And france make their own fighter because of work share agreement and their needed specification are different from other members.

nEUROn and Rafale are different things and yet connected. Firstly because both are military planes. Correct me if I am wrong but the last ever warplane JV between France and other country was it not Jaguar? Everybody knows the Story of Eurofighter and Rafale when France had issues with design and wanted to do it alone?
If you notice, then nEUROn is a Dassault design, but seems that they did learn from their earlier experience where they did not manage to either sell the numbers required by them to make significant profit. The most profit you make is when you export.
Further if you read the article, they are trying to develop the plane that it can be controlled by Ground stations and also by pilot of Rafale or Gripen, thus in a way, they are trying to make it sort of a package which is useful for future if you have Rafale or gripen, and in a way to push for Sales of Rafale (if the country could be interested in this product in future)

 

[sgarg]

Combat performance of Rafale

The Rafale has already proven itself in three different wars. In Afghanistan, it performed numerous ground strikes against the Taleban, sometimes with GBU-12 Paveway II bombs used against Taleban caves. In Libya, it successfully evaded Qaddafi's woefully obsolete 1960s-vintage Soviet air defense systems and led the fight against his regime. Most recently, in Mali, the Rafale flew long distances to perform strikes against Islamic insurgents.

Thus, the Rafale is a veteran of three wars despite entering service only a little more than a decade ago, a stark distinction to all of its competitors except the Super Hornet, none of which have seen any combat whatsoever, even against obsolete Soviet air defense systems or insurgents unable to contest control of the air.

Sure the above compares very well with the kind of enemies India has?

 

[smestarz]

Rafale Accidents (from Wikipedia)

On 6 December 2007, a French Air Force twin-seat Rafale crashed during a training flight. The pilot, who suffered a black out, was killed in the accident.[207]
On 24 September 2009, after unarmed test flights, two French Navy Rafales returning to the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle, collided in mid-air about 30 kilometres (19 mi) from the town of Perpignan in southwest France. One test pilot, identified as François Duflot, was killed in the accident, while the other was rescued.[208]
On 28 November 2010, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle crashed in the Arabian Sea. This aircraft was supporting Allied operations in Afghanistan. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by a rescue helicopter from the carrier. Later reports said the engine stopped after being starved of fuel due to confusion by the pilot in switching fuel tanks.[209]
On 2 July 2012, during a joint exercise, a Rafale from the carrier Charles de Gaulle plunged into the Mediterranean Sea. The pilot ejected safely and was recovered by an American search and rescue helicopter from the carrier USS Dwight D. Eisenhower

that is almost 10% of the Rafale M fleet used by French navy

 

[mans.randhawa]

It seems our govt has made up its mind in buying the french junk . The thing is we cannot win a war against china and again i like to reiterate we don't need 175 million $ french aircraft to shoot down Pakistani bought Chinese junk .
It seems IAF wants these fancy ass aircrafts to look good while doing exercises in foreign countries . After all we are a paper tiger which cannot manufacture a decent fighter plane .

only thing junk here is your post , there is none better multirole fighters than rafales in current era.
Only viable alternative would be mig 35 only if it comes at least 50% cheaper and ruskies agree for full tot.

 

[sgarg]

only thing junk here is your post , there is none better multirole fighters than rafales in current era.
Only viable alternative would be mig 35 only if it comes at least 50% cheaper and ruskies agree for full tot.

Russkies will dance on the streets if India agreed for Mig-35 at 50% of the price. TOT - India knows almost everything for building Russia-origin planes.

 

[Blackwater]

Russkies will dance on the streets if India agreed for Mig-35 at 50% of the price. TOT - India knows almost everything for building Russia-origin planes.

that's y MIGs felling from air like bird shit

 

[sgarg]

My preference is to station 10 sq. (5 each Mig-29K and LCA) in south India. Two sq. of Mig-29K are already in place. India should go for 3 more thus giving IN real air capability.
Better to have more capable 5th generation or large 4th generation planes in the north. A su-35 with massive radar and long range BVR missiles is a much better bet compared to Rafale.

 

[sgarg]

that's y MIGs felling from air like bird shit

Can you support your statement by evidence??

 

[sgarg]

Information of Mig-29 upgrade:

Three of six MiG-29s that were sent to Russia are back in India for some time now, featuring all the upgrades of the program. They have become MiG-29UPGs, sporting the new Zhuk-M2E radar made by Phazotron-NIIR, the OLS-UEM infrared search-and-track system (IRST) similar to the Indian Navy MiG-29Ks, thermal / TV / laser imaging made by Moscow-based NPK SPP, multi-functional full-colour LCDs in the cockpit, increased fuel capacity and an in-flight refuelling system. Moreover the aircraft feature the more powerful RD-33 series 3 turbo-jet engines.

New role
The new radar will increase the MiG-pilot's radar view up till 200 nautical miles, giving him – the Indian Air Force doesn't have female fighter pilots – the ability to track 60 targets simultaneously and adds terrain-following mode and ground-target acquisition. In other words: the MiG-jock turns from a sole fighter pilot to an asset that can be used for close air support and ground attack, meaning the Fulcrum crews need additional training for their new role.

Non-Russian
Different from the Russian Air Force MiG-29SMTs the Indian most-modern Fulcrums are set to have non-Russian equipment, like a sat-nav system from French Sagem, a helmet-mounted targeting system from French Thales, an Indian indigenous electronic warfare suite and Israeli-made electronic counter measures. Added Indian systems come from HAL and Bharat Dynamics.

Indian Air Force MiG-29s best on the block | AIRheads↑FLY

Mig-29 is a very important asset, stationed on three major IAF bases.

 

[Blackwater]

Can you support your statement by evidence??

 

[jaciunite2]

that's y MIGs felling from air like bird shit

1. IAF MiG-29 evaluation, versus the Mirage 2000-H.

Source:http://www.scribd.com/doc/21520658/Mirage-2000-Vs-MiG-29-Rivals-from-the-same-team

Air Marshal rtd, Harish Masand, then Wing Commander and CO of First Supersonics (MiG-29 squadron) versus the No.1 Tigers squadron led by then Wing Commander Ahluwahlia (later Air Marshal).

Evaluation in 1988:

MiG-29 outperformed the Mirage 2000 in "every sphere", parameters mentioned: STR, ITR, climb (climb rate). Range to payload of Mirage 2000 better, but MiG-29 and Mirage consumed almost the same amount of fuel in combat situations as the latter had to use afterburner more often.

Group combat and role specific missions: "Radar, IRST, HMSD, voice information system put to good use".

 

[jaciunite2]

IAF MIG-29 UPGRADE:-
source:-bharatrakshak.wikia

Its quite evident that the MiG-29 as such is a very lethal platform. With modern avionics, it can take on & defeat current generation aircraft, including the Block 50 F-16, when properly flown.

Its primary "deficits" were in terms of its older avionics and limited fuel capacity.

The IAF upgrade, which is to SMT level and beyond, addresses these issues.

Original IAF MiG-29s are believed to have received limited upgrades already, including local Tarang RWRs plus improvements to the radar to the N019ME standard.

Avionics

- New databus 1553B standard to incorporate newer avionics

- New mission computers, navigation system (RLG-INS w/GPS + possible Glonass module - Sagem's Sigma95N), Stores Management System, new VRS (Video Recording System) plus DMG (Display Map Generator). VRS and DMG likely to be sourced from Israel or locally.

-Glass cockpit with new HUD, two MFDs, HOTAS

-Zhuk ME MultiFunction radar with A2A/A2G modes; new IFF; Zhuk variant for IAF is Zhuk M2E, with an improved signal processor over Indian Navy MiG-29Ks which received the Zhuk M1E (source:AWST Sharper Eyes for India's MiGs) The improved processor would allow for improved raid assessment, and NCTR (non cooperative target recognition).

Deputy Director (Phazatron) Yuri Goskov quoted:

Guskov said that Phazotron is already working on the next modification of its slot array radars, the Zhuk M2E. This version will have a faster processor, allowing it to classify targets by type (for instance, fighters, bombers and helicopters) and to break-out formation targets flying at 20-30 meters apart. The radar can also be programmed to identify aircraft by type – in the case of a new type, it can record its reflected signal and later use it for identification.
The Zhuk M2E should start flight testing this year. The modernized radar will equip 62 Indian Air Force MiG-29s that MiG is modifying to the MiG-29UPG configuration under contract to the IAF.
Zhuk ME specifications

Brochure - note these are "public details" for advertising purposes. Actual specifications may exceed some of the specifications shown.



-NIPP OLS-UE (as on latest MiG-35 and MiG-29K). Has a TV channel. Also has an advanced IR matrix for increased range. For the MiG-35, MiG notes "The IRST system with infra-red, TV and laser sighting equipment has been developed using the space technologies which were not applied previously in aviation. The system distinctive features are the increased range, detection, tracking, identification and lock-on of air, ground/surface targets in the forward and rear hemispheres, at day and night measuring the distance with laser range-finder as well as the formation of target designation and laser illumination of ground targets. The IRST system and new helmet-mounted target designation system are integrated into the armament control system." The IAF SMT upgrade does not have the fuselage mounted pod, so it cannot track ground targets (IAF will use the Litening instead) but rest applies, for the forward facing IRST.

-D-29 EW suite: Developed by DRDO with inhouse high accuracy DF RWR fit which cues AESA jammers. Latter codeveloped with Elettronica. DARE developed a high performance EW system with a scalable, modular architecture. The system can receive signals from multiple channels, process them in an Indian developed signal processing suite, and then devise appropriate jamming countermeasures to be initiated by jammers linked to the output channels. The LCA & MiG-27 Upgrade, both feature conventional Transmitter based jammers but the MiG-29 has an AESA fit developed with Elettronica. This system combines high grade coverage with high ERP (Emitted Radiated Power) for effective countermeasures.

-Improved chaff & flares system: Likely to be the locally developed system by Bharat Dynamics Ltd.

-V/UHF radio fit + IAF datalink. Radios likely to be Software Defined Radios developed by HAL

-VOR/ILS/TACAN from HAL

Weaponry

-R73E,R77, KH-35UE, KAB-500/1500, Kh-31 A/P family.