Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[smestarz]

India needs the FGFA humbly. But the question is when iaf can not maintain their 4th generation frontline fighter-How can they gona maintain a fifth generation aircraft.The government needs to look at this.

Very very valid point, I think being 5th Gen it will need more maintenance than 4th Gen planes, mainly RAM coating to ensure its Stealthiness. What if IAF does not stock that either? The 5th Gen plane will become sub 5th Gen and again someone will call it "Russian junk" thanks to inability of the IAF to use and maintain planes.

 

[roma]

the justified charisma and technical superiority of the rafael deal
is now fast running out ........ people all over the nation are getting
weary with the mis-management of the time-frames and indeed St Antony had
said the money wasnt there a year ago or so .

secondly yes , NDA has the right to politicise the matter , blame congi for a 10 year delay
congi had gte grand opportunity of doing something great for the air defence and the nation
but they flunked it -now NDA has the right to rub it in .....,yes , for the national interest

t he alternatives to rafael WILL NOT BE EASY ...because it is likely tgo slant towards more russian stuff
and they ARE good planes , but we will be going back on our plan to diversify away from the
soviet era dependence on those proven friends of ours

well besides france who else then - possibilities are Japan , usa and eurofighter.
eurofighter probabaly costs similar to rafael and now we have to go to 4 governments
any one of whom can object to any new request and it is a messy arrangement !

i therefore conclude that either we go for Japanese planes which is a great risk given that their
antiwar legislation a also kick in at any crucial stage

or

we take the risk with continued supply frmo russia - a proven friend although not entirely risk-free
( nothing ever is ) and use the monies saved to go to MCA development and other aircraft in our quest
to become more self-sufficient in our warplane development .

i therefore suggest getting Sukhoi coba and sukhoi 47 berkut as excelent alternatives to the now
drabby rafeal and the monies saved strictly accounted into MCA development .

both planes the cobra and the berkut are superb mechanically and engine-wise, if absolutely
necessary the competent indian engineers can upgrade the electronics.and stealth paint

Su-47 (S-37 Berkut) Golden Eagle Fighter - Airforce Technology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ygvIbhZkw

if we want a less expensive plane or a less recognizable
signature then we can go for su35 cobra - which
is still ahead of rafael

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVlmoNtcyhY

 

[sgarg]

@roma, nobody can predict the behaviour of our "western" friends in wartime. Sanctions on India are likely. The social conditions in Pakistan are getting worse. Pakistani elite ALWAYS resorts to war with India when things go out of control at home.

American policy favours Pakistan over India. This is a fact seen constantly over the years.

We can go for "western" equipment but with clear idea that such equipment can become useless in wartime. Most western equipment will become very expensive show pieces when their actual use is needed.

One very good example is WLR imported 10 years back, which are mothballed for lack of spares at a time when there are no sanctions.

 

[sgarg]

The best course for India is local development and manufacturing. The next best is to import from Russia, or other sanctions-proof countries, even if the equipment is technically inferior.

 

[smestarz]

the justified charisma and technical superiority of the rafael deal
is now fast running out ........ people all over the nation are getting
weary with the mis-management of the time-frames and indeed St Antony had
said the money wasnt there a year ago or so .

secondly yes , NDA has the right to politicise the matter , blame congi for a 10 year delay
congi had gte grand opportunity of doing something great for the air defence and the nation
but they flunked it -now NDA has the right to rub it in .....,yes , for the national interest

t he alternatives to rafael WILL NOT BE EASY ...because it is likely tgo slant towards more russian stuff
and they ARE good planes , but we will be going back on our plan to diversify away from the
soviet era dependence on those proven friends of ours

well besides france who else then - possibilities are Japan , usa and eurofighter.
eurofighter probabaly costs similar to rafael and now we have to go to 4 governments
any one of whom can object to any new request and it is a messy arrangement !

i therefore conclude that either we go for Japanese planes which is a great risk given that their
antiwar legislation a also kick in at any crucial stage

or

we take the risk with continued supply frmo russia - a proven friend although not entirely risk-free
( nothing ever is ) and use the monies saved to go to MCA development and other aircraft in our quest
to become more self-sufficient in our warplane development .

i therefore suggest getting Sukhoi coba and sukhoi 47 berkut as excelent alternatives to the now
drabby rafeal and the monies saved strictly accounted into MCA development .

both planes the cobra and the berkut are superb mechanically and engine-wise, if absolutely
necessary the competent indian engineers can upgrade the electronics.and stealth paint

Su-47 (S-37 Berkut) Golden Eagle Fighter - Airforce Technology
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-ygvIbhZkw

if we want a less expensive plane or a less recognizable
signature then we can go for su35 cobra - which
is still ahead of rafael

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVlmoNtcyhY

There are few things here which you need to understand.

1. THREAT PERCEPTION
IAF is always telling India about how China and Pakistan can attack us and we need to have the Rafale now. Now if you see when the IAF initially thought to order 126 new Mirage 2000 and that later got changed to RFP and then in 2012 Rafale was declared L1, how many times has Pakistan or China have gone to war with us? I mean serious war involving Air forces? NIL
So its not that PAF is going to attack tomorrow, and PAF knows that with the 200 Su-30 MKI that India has, it would be very bad adventure.

2. Anthony (ex defence minister) wanted to ensure that he was a clean Minister, and so he did not involve in any scam, rather even if you see the PILATUS part, he is covered because the IAF chief wrote lies in his letter claiming that Pilatus is cheaper and the cost of LCC over 30 years it will be lower than HTT-40, so can we blame AK Anthony for believing the lies of Air Chief? Btw why is the Air chief not being prosecuted by court of law or even a court martial (he may be an ex IAF chief but this way its to ensure that he is not addressed as ACM and also take away all the decorations)

3. The planes that India can look at besies Rafale
A) Su-30 MKI we are already using them and is one of the top air dominance plane, truly an asset, but if we handle their servicing well, we can ensure that pakistan does not do any mischief.
B) Su-35, a variant of Su-30 and modified with IRBIS Passive Radar, supposed to be very capable. We already have su-30 MKI
C) Eurofighter, a very good plane and now being upgraded to be able to carry and use a lot of A2G weapons, will be very lethal. Cost as expensive as Rafale and if we want to produce it there will be more delays.
D) F-16, F/A-18 no options, too mature designs and IAF is not interested.
E) Gripen, a good plane but way to expensive.
F) PAKFA, Russia already started to use it, and if we can buy 2-3 squadrons off the shelf (about 50) it solves a lot of things, as we would be having top of the line 5th Gen plane which China might be having, hence we would be successful to counter them, and we shall have a more cutting edge over Pakistan. The flipside is not many things are known in fact about PAKFA, thus its a chance, the plane will be expensive (maybe not as expensive as Rafale) would IAF which blotches the maintenance of 4th Gen plane be able to handle maintencance of 5th gen plane?

Berkut as per Russia is tech demonstrator and they would not be making a fighter plane out of it.

In my view the best way would be
A) order a few PAKFA off the shelf and use them and then advice what avionics that India might need, sort of MKIsation of PAKFA which would work faster than developing FGFA because for developing FGFA the policy etc etc have to be looked at and will take more time.

B) Invest heaviliy in development of Avionics for planes (Tejas AMCA PAKFA etc) having good avionics is important

C) Invest more into development of making good engine, (engine development) Engine seems to be one problem that we face and that is holding up other developments, hence we need to master the art of engine making

 

[sgarg]

@smestarz, it makes sense to buy Su-35 and PAK-FA, that is why these are being considered.

Cost is always an issue in India as budget is limited. Government spending is only 15% of GDP in India. India has to build its defence within a limited amount of money. India cannot imitate Western models for defence as their economy is very different from ours.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

i think if we are considering

stop gap arrrangements till pkfa turns into FGFA - MKIsation of PAKFA
stop Nos from falling before a critical level

thenwe should consider the following

1. Some more Su30MKI upgraded to super Su30 MKI standard with better radar (maybe IRBIS) avionics & Engines
2. Some Mig29 SMT MKI
3. PAKFA
4. more Tejas

all of which can be achieved in the Rafale Budget and can give us more than 160-200 fighters

 

[Prometheus]

I dont think 5 gen planes are that BIG a deal, even as and when we have the PAKFA, FGFA and the AMCA, we wont be switching over to 5th Gen planes totally. We will still have 4+, 4++ gen planes doing all the dirty work. Remember, a 5th Gen plane can NEVER compete with a 4 gen plane, because it will always be handicapped by stealth in its designs, which will always limit its weapons carrying ability and dog fighting capability.

We just need 5th gen planes in small numbers for the first strike! to knock out the enemies radar and defenses. We just need to keep ourselves invested in stealth and the 5th gen concept, and continue to develop them and order them in small numbers. The 5 Gen planes are NEVER gonna completely REPLACE the fighter fleet. Its monetarily simply too expensive and way too handicapped( its like fighting with a hand tied behind your back). And considering we are already going for the above mentioned 3 concepts, even if we order 100 of each (and as of what I know we have already ordered 144 of PAKFA's), it will be more then enough! in fact we would have too many already.

Going for a 4++ gen aircraft is not a bad idea at all!. RE: Rafale(and also the Griphen), its a sinking ship. France is not gonna invest or adventure into making a new platform EVER again, the Rafale itself has left a bad taste in their mouth. Eurofighter, can be buckled down by sanctions. I don't even want to talk about the F's. So the BEST place to source our stock is Russia!. Remember we NEED to keep close ties with Russia. The Russian defense industry, is and will be severely hit by sanctions. Its time to bail them out. If we don't bail them out NOW, and the Russian defense Industry collapses . We (and the rest of the world) will be blackmailed for the rest of our existence for what ever price the west quotes. China wont be selling us their arms, to fight them, and it will take a few decades before we could start making top of the line weapons ourselves, so Russia IS critical for India. Also considering the bulk of our weaponry is from Russia, imagine the day when spares are not available and no new upgrades are available on our already acquired arsenal .

Not only will we be bailing out our tried and tested friend, but with the Rouble at an all time low, we could get ourselves a good deal!. Also India is tilting way towards the west, if at this juncture, Russia is left with no choices, it will tilt towards China and that would be devastating for India. Remember the cold war in Europe took place because Europe was well balanced. If a CW2 occurs India WILL be the only obstacle for Russia, China, Pakistan, Shri Lanka.... it will NEVER be a stale mate like it was in Europe. Besides the American's have no cultural ties with India or Japan, for that reason. They would never hesitate to put either put Japan or India in harms way, also we would be a slave to US foreign policy, and see where it has taken Pakistan. Unlike Russia, which seek partners. The US seeks vassal states like UK, Israel and Pakistan, who obey every order given. I dont think either me or anyone in India does/ or will ever like to play that role!

 

[smestarz]

@smestarz, it makes sense to buy Su-35 and PAK-FA, that is why these are being considered.

Cost is always an issue in India as budget is limited. Government spending is only 15% of GDP in India. India has to build its defence within a limited amount of money. India cannot imitate Western models for defence as their economy is very different from ours.

Su-35 is a new plane with lot of commonality of parts with Su-30 MKI, so why you prefer to go for Su-35 instead of more Su-30 MKI, what is your logic?
PAKFA makes sense.

We do not have to imitate the west but if you see the logic is to make fighting a war sustainable. In conflict with Pakistan, pakistan will be using single engine planes only making their sorties more affordable, and the only way for us to ensure that we ensure complete air dominance on PAF and put in Tejas in air.

It is not only economy, we need to have armed forces doctrine for each arm, one of the logical yet funny thing is when some people on the forum say "Rafale is an Omni role plane" but without knowing what exactly it means. What they mean is swing role, but for swing role, the plane should be armed with armament that require that. For example many of us wear watches that are 100 metre water resistant, how many of us have tried to test this quality?

Further Rafale was designed to be MRCA. where as Su-30 MKI was designed to be air dominance plane, but it was the short sightedness of IAF and their doctrine that they could not foresee another role for Su-30 MKI OR ELSE the Air chiefs wanted to ensure that french weapons are deemed important and then they can milk the proverbial Indian cow. The Super 30 upgrades will also allow the 40 Su-30 MKI to conduct Nuclcear strikes if required, thus what exactly would be the role for Mirage 2000 or Jaguar which are being upgrades at high cost? Whatever these planes can do Su-30 MKI can do better and with more weapons, I guess the air chiefs carefully planned the upgrades of these planes to ensure that their pockets were lined up. It is strange that though Russia has been using some A2G weapons for their Su-30 and they did modify Su-34 to be a strike plane, why did IAF top brass not have a vision to see if our Su-30 MKI have the ability to have strike role also? Already Su-30 MKI has LITENING POD which is a targeting pod. The more I think the more I feel that IAF top brass is corrupt and incompetent, it seems the lower echelon of the services have the desire to fight for their country, the patriotism and the time they get behind the desk, they start thinking of retirement plans and hence this LACK OF VISION AND DIRECTION, and also NAK Browne did put the classic example of manipulating the figures to ensure that some planes of their choice were declared L1. Why is it NOT A SCAM ?

 

[smestarz]

I dont think 5 gen planes are that BIG a deal, even as and when we have the PAKFA, FGFA and the AMCA, we wont be switching over to 5th Gen planes totally. We will still have 4+, 4++ gen planes doing all the dirty work. Remember, a 5th Gen plane can NEVER compete with a 4 gen plane, because it will always be handicapped by stealth in its designs, which will always limit its weapons carrying ability and dog fighting capability.

We just need 5th gen planes in small numbers for the first strike! to knock out the enemies radar and defenses. We just need to keep ourselves invested in stealth and the 5th gen concept, and continue to develop them and order them in small numbers. The 5 Gen planes are NEVER gonna completely REPLACE the fighter fleet. Its monetarily simply too expensive and way too handicapped( its like fighting with a hand tied behind your back). And considering we are already going for the above mentioned 3 concepts, even if we order 100 of each (and as of what I know we have already ordered 144 of PAKFA's), it will be more then enough! in fact we would have too many already.

Going for a 4++ gen aircraft is not a bad idea at all!. RE: Rafale(and also the Griphen), its a sinking ship. France is not gonna invest or adventure into making a new platform EVER again, the Rafale itself has left a bad taste in their mouth. Eurofighter, can be buckled down by sanctions. I don't even want to talk about the F's. So the BEST place to source our stock is Russia!. Remember we NEED to keep close ties with Russia. The Russian defense industry, is and will be severely hit by sanctions. Its time to bail them out. If we don't bail them out NOW, and the Russian defense Industry collapses . We (and the rest of the world) will be blackmailed for the rest of our existence for what ever price the west quotes. China wont be selling us their arms, to fight them, and it will take a few decades before we could start making top of the line weapons ourselves, so Russia IS critical for India. Also considering the bulk of our weaponry is from Russia, imagine the day when spares are not available and no new upgrades are available on our already acquired arsenal .

Not only will we be bailing out our tried and tested friend, but with the Rouble at an all time low, we could get ourselves a good deal!. Also India is tilting way towards the west, if at this juncture, Russia is left with no choices, it will tilt towards China and that would be devastating for India. Remember the cold war in Europe took place because Europe was well balanced. If a CW2 occurs India WILL be the only obstacle for Russia, China, Pakistan, Shri Lanka.... it will NEVER be a stale mate like it was in Europe. Besides the American's have no cultural ties with India or Japan, for that reason. They would never hesitate to put either put Japan or India in harms way, also we would be a slave to US foreign policy, and see where it has taken Pakistan. Unlike Russia, which seek partners. The US seeks vassal states like UK, Israel and Pakistan, who obey every order given. I dont think either me or anyone in India does/ or will ever like to play that role!

5th Gen planes will be very capable and will bring in lot of cutting edge avionics and systems, but also it brings in lot of other headaches, mainly being MAINTENANCE. 5th Gen planes will need a lot of maintenance and the cost of using these planes will be high. YES you are right that 4th Gen will be the ones doing all the dirty works, but if you come up with doctrine we can do much better.

Being stealth planes they have benefits, so these planes can be used in limited roles like COMMANDOS to have a critical strike that cripples the enemy defence, and then the 4th Gen planes can ensure air dominance (Su-30 MKI) and that would then allow single engine planes like Tejas to fly with immunity. After all using single engine plane like Tejas is more economical. F-35 will bring world peace, mark my words. Countries have ordered it in quantity, but using them and maintaining them will drain economies so much that countries will prefer to fly planes like Gripen and that would make sense.
The same will be true for PAKFA.

Stealth as per me is in two parts, design and ECM, Design is a good way to achieve stealth, but that is more expensive considering a lot of time needs to be spent to design it and there would be somethings discounted to achieve that, but other sort of stealth is electronic stealth where the planes using its electronic jammers and Warfare suite can be VLO or Stealthy. Such can be achieved and put as a pack or POD on a plane and this is achievable, and if you see the cost of producing the "STEALTH POD" will be more cheaper than investing in a full 5th gen plane. Where as the POD being something that can be removed can be modified and upgraded at fraction of the cost of upgrading or even applying RAM coating on the plane. The cost of maintaining 4th Gen plane + POD will be much much cheaper than maintaining 5th Gen plane,
What are your vies?

Every country can buckle to some pressures and the moment we end up being single vendor country that would end up asking us exhorbitant prices. The best policy is to develop our own, the moment we develop our own, other countries will offer us options to ensure that our industry remains at infancy. The most important project for us should be development of engines, once we have our mastery on engines, we can develop our own versions of X-47B or the likes of it and we would not even be talking about Rafail.

 

[roma]

i think if we are considering
stop gap arrrangements till pkfa turns into FGFA - MKIsation of PAKFA
stop Nos from falling before a critical level
thenwe should consider the following

1. Some more Su30MKI upgraded to super Su30 MKI standard with better radar (maybe IRBIS) avionics & Engines
2. Some Mig29 SMT MKI
3. PAKFA
4. more Tejas

all of which can be achieved in the Rafale Budget and can give us more than 160-200 fighters

@smestarz, it makes sense to buy Su-35 and PAK-FA, that is why these are being considered.
Cost is always an issue in India as budget is limited. Government spending is only 15% of GDP in India. India has to build its defence within a limited amount of money. India cannot imitate Western models for defence as their economy is very different from ours.

the above tow posts are basically what i have been trying to say - thanks for summarizing it for me
and as you stated we use the same budget as for rafael but a indeed have either more planes
or keep the same number and account the extra monies into MCA development

@roma, nobody can predict the behaviour of our "western" friends in wartime. Sanctions on India are likely. The social conditions in Pakistan are getting worse. Pakistani elite ALWAYS resorts to war with India when things go out of control at home.

American policy favours Pakistan over India. This is a fact seen constantly over the years.

We can go for "western" equipment but with clear idea that such equipment can become useless in wartime. Most western equipment will become very expensive show pieces when their actual use is needed.

One very good example is WLR imported 10 years back, which are mothballed for lack of spares at a time when there are no sanctions.

The best course for India is local development and manufacturing. The next best is to import from Russia, or other sanctions-proof countries, even if the equipment is technically inferior.

if india feels relatively comfortable with continued ( although less ) dependence on soviet and now russian
technology, then we should not delay in going for it plus fair level of TOT

t his rafael deal has been going on too long , scrap it come down to reality and get russian stuff

any emergency we need to lease PAKFA on the spot with obligation to pay up and buy certain amount later

 

[jaciunite2]

Guys i think drdo could ask Israel for help in developing fifth generation avionics. They are very advanced in technology and they also are a good friend of india.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Guys i think drdo could ask Israel for help in developing fifth generation avionics. They are very advanced in technology and they also are a good friend of india.

ok lets discuss avionics

what all is included in avionics ?

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

the above tow posts are basically what i have been trying to say - thanks for summarizing it for me
and as you stated we use the same budget as for rafael but a indeed have either more planes
or keep the same number and account the extra monies into MCA development






if india feels relatively comfortable with continued ( although less ) dependence on soviet and now russian
technology, then we should not delay in going for it plus fair level of TOT

t his rafael deal has been going on too long , scrap it come down to reality and get russian stuff

any emergency we need to lease PAKFA on the spot with obligation to pay up and buy certain amount later

well i have this bias against ToT

you know what just take an example

safran develops an aircraft engine - it takes 10 years
then a fighter uses it for 10 years
then we go and buy that fighter and ask for ToT of engine
they agree we agree to pay more for ToT
theis ToT will be transfered to us over next 10 years

by the time we get ToT it is 30 years old technology
ok no issues with it but what happens in real life is in those 10 years the co which sold you the tech for which you paid the oney uses that money and develops next gen engines they use that engines and they dump 30 years old technology on you for a hefty sum

ok agreed that we did not have that tech in the 1st place so we bought it

but the worst part is by ToT you can get 20 years old tech but what you cant get nor what they can transfer is

the ability to conceptualise, design, develop next level of engines in terms of perfomance, efficiency reliability etc

what ToT can give you is ability to make engine or something which that co made 20-30 years ago

what it cant give you is the ability to concetualise, desing and develop completely new engine from scratch nor it can teach you to make modifications nor tweaking in the existing engines

that can only come by investing time effort sweat bllod and money

 

[warrior monk]

We should dump the MMRCA deal we don't need a 175 million $ aircraft to shoot down Chinese made 30 million $ junk ( JF-17). More Su-30 MKI will do fine.

 

[sgarg]

We should dump the MMRCA deal we don't need a 175 million $ aircraft to shoot down Chinese made 30 million $ junk ( JF-17). More Su-30 MKI will do fine.

I want to give you a million likes but cannot. You have said what I could not say. Su-30 is enough for Pakistan and Rafale is not enough for China. Best is to avoid war with China and use Su-30 in war with Pakistan.

 

[warrior monk]

I am sorry to say but MMRCA deal is almost salvaged we are just waiting for the final confirmation guess Rafales will be joining IAF .
Dassault, HAL To Be Co-Contractors On Indian-Built Rafales | Defense content from Aviation Week

 

[sgarg]

FGFA followed by AMCA makes the most sense for IAF. Su-30 is already deployed at important airbases. Why to shun "heavy" fighter if it makes more sense. Maybe they can have half squadrons where they had full squadron earlier if they think Su-30 or similar is expensive. The objective should be to keep planes in top condition with excellent maintenance.

 

[smestarz]

Guys i think drdo could ask Israel for help in developing fifth generation avionics. They are very advanced in technology and they also are a good friend of india.

YES, it seems Israel will put their avionics on F-35

 

[smestarz]

I am sorry to say but MMRCA deal is almost salvaged we are just waiting for the final confirmation guess Rafales will be joining IAF .
Dassault, HAL To Be Co-Contractors On Indian-Built Rafales | Defense content from Aviation Week

Few thngs you should know here,
BEFORE the GoI has to sign the contract, Dassault should have its contracts signed with the various contractors, that is the condition because after signing the contract between GoI and Dassault, it has to have all its contracts signed. Thus as per the requirements before signing the contract Dassault and its team should have their agreements in place, and these agreements are not binding till the contract with GoI is signed.

GoI is under no obligation to sign the deal based on price etc, but Dassault and its team are in obligation to sign the agreements with its Indian contractors and only after that the DEAL could be considered.

Dassault and its team have their contracts signed BUT WHAT POINT YOU ARE MISSING IS the cost of the entire deal. let us consider the first price say US$ 10 billion, at this cost we shall be getting 126 planes (18 + 108) and get offset of 60% and also the lines to set up the planes? If so then the price of the planes end up being very similar to price of Mirage 2000 upgrade, which is foolish.

Thus it would be safe to assume that
The cost for planes are US$ 10 billion which the Dassault CEO is saying is unchanged

But also on other hand RM is on record saying that the cost of contract has increased and become too expensive, so how can it be possible? So its if either of them is lying or that both are true but Dassault CEO is only talking about the cost of planes and safely ignoring the total value of contract (which includes all the various jigs and lines that would be imported from France and set up in India, toolings etc) as per my estimate the cost of the entire Rafale project will be US$ 35 billion for India. The total Rafale program cost €45.9 billion (FY2013) (US$62.7 billion) which is almost twice what India would be paying for few decade old plane.

Thus my point is if the cost is just 10 billion for entire project then the cost of Rafale would be abt US$ 50 million per plane an average, I doubt dassault can produce the 18 planes at this price.

If we take the circulated cost of US$ 101 million dollars per plane (as per wikipedia for Rafale C)
Dassault Rafale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia then the cost of planes would be 101 Mil X 126 which comes to US$ 12.2 billion dollars, thus it does cross the 10 billion dollar number by 20%, and add to this cost the cost of Tech Transfer (not critical tech) lines, jigs, toolings, it would easily go cross 25 billion, Thus the 10 billion dollar if its the reported price which Dassault CEO says is same, what the hell was the compromise? We pay extra for avionics and upgrades? Maybe, surely the plane would come with Mica IR but not with MICA NG for which we might have to pay EXTRA.
Thus in a way Dassault will be shortchanging us.

10 billion dollars is not possible because going by the price itself the plane would be 12.2 billion dollars (just cost of plane) now with the cost of lines, jigs and weapons that might be a seperate pack. The UPA govt have in past signed contracts where it has purchased planes without armaments or rather weapons for show, as Mirage 2000 did not come with anything except gun and thats what IAF found during Kargil conflict.. wonderful.

So you still feel that we can get Rafale at US$ 10 billion for 126 planes? you better wake up, there is some hitch,