Alternatives to Dassault Rafale

[smestarz]

Where did you get this information?
Any References please?

This is 2008 article Flight global is considered reliable, the link as follows
VIDEO: US Red Flag pilot candidly assesses Su-30MKI's limits, Rafale's dirty tricks - 11/6/2008 - Flight Global

And I point the part for reference

However, French Air Force pilots, who deployed to the same event with the Dassault Rafale fighter, apparently engaged in non-friendly activities."They never really came to any merges," the pilot explains.

"What they were really doing was, they had all their sensors on sniffing and seeing how our radars worked. And that's really all they were doing out here. They came out here and they watched the whole flight, with their newest airplane and their newest electronic receiving units, and sucked up all the 'trons in the air."

This is from Aviation week but the link is not active anymore
http://aviationweek.com/aw/generic/...lot Critiques Red Flag Action&channel=defense

USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action

Nov 5, 2008

David A. Fulghum and Graham Warwick

Indian pilots flying Su-30MKIs are extremely professional, but they're still learning how to best fight with their new aircraft.

That opinion comes from an unidentified, senior F-15 pilot taped while briefing senior retired U.S. Air Force officers about the most recent Red Flag exercise. The video was made available online at YouTube.com.

The French pilots flying the new Dassault Rafale appeared to be there to collect electronic intelligence on the Indian aircraft, contends the USAF pilot, who wears an Air Force Weapons School graduate patch.

The French were originally going to bring the older Mirage 2000-5 until they discovered the Indians were bringing their new Su-30MKIs, the pilot says. They then switched and brought their Rafales with more sophisticated electronic surveillance equipment.

Once at Red Flag, "90 percent of the time they followed the Indians so when they took a shot or got shot" they would take a quick shot of their own and then leave," he said. "They never came to any merges," which starts the dogfighting portion of any air-to-air combat. He asserts that French pilots followed the same procedure during Desert Storm and Peace Keeping exercises. When U.S. aircrews were flying operations, the French would fly local sorties while "sucking up all the trons" to see how U.S. electronics, like radars, worked, according to the pilot.


He praised the Indians as extremely professional and said they had no training rule violations. However, they "killed a lot of friendlies" because they were tied to a Russian-made data link system that didn't allow them to see the picture of the battlefield available to everyone else. The lack of combat identification of the other aircraft caused confusion.

But the U.S. apparently isn't ignorant of the Su-30MKI's radar either.

The Su-30 electronically scanned radar is not as accurate as the U.S.-built active electronically scanned radar carried by the F-22 and some F-15s. Also, "it paints less, sees less" and is not as discriminating.

He praised the F-22 as the next great dogfighter. But he faulted the fact that it carries too few missiles and contends that the on-board cannon could be a life-saver, particularly against aircraft like the MiG-21 Bison flown by the Indians. It has a small radar cross section, as well as an Israeli-made F-16 radar and jammer. The latter makes them "almost invisible to legacy F-15C and F-16 radars" until the aerial merge or until it fires one of its Archer, active radar missiles, the U.S. pilot says.

Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. "It starts dropping so fast you don't have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is "not [an F-22] Raptor," he further says. "That was good for us to find out." But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft - "they were too anxious to go to the post-stall maneuver," he says-- the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar.

A final weakness in the Su-30MKI was its engine's vulnerability to foreign object damage which required them to space takeoffs a minute apart and slowed mission launches.

NO WONDER THE FRENCH ARE CONFIDENT OF RAFALE, whenever they go to a friendly exercise all they try is to electronic sniffing and develop the Database for SPECTRA.

 

[smestarz]

The same pak fa which have engine problems, Indians are worried about its stealth technologies,whom engine caught fire,whos radar is unproven that pak-fa?

You might not have heard that Russians have already come up with a NEW ENGINE FOR PAKFA. They were using AL-41F which is being used for Su-35 and that was not to be the powerplant for PAKFA, the new engine is already being developed
http://theaviationist.com/2015/02/26/pak-fa-new-engine-study/

The Russians have started the test and design works, aim of which is to provide the Russian 5th Generation fighter with a relevant power-plant.

If there is one field in which the Russians seem to fall behind in aircraft development – it is definitely the propulsion systems for the new jets.

Currently, prototypes of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii—Future Tactical Air System) which is the Russian 5th Generation fighter design, use the Saturn AL-41F1 engines, which are a series production model used by the Russian 4.5 generation fighters, such as Sukhoi Su-35.

We must remember that childhood of T-50 PAK-FA has been quite troublesome and engines have already been cause of some quite embarrassing incidents in the near past.

The current engine should not be mistaken with the NPO Saturn AL-41F engine, which has been designed for the Multi-Role Frontline Fighter, also known as MiG-1.44. The engine used by the PAK-FA prototypes is actually an updated variant of the AL-31F power-plant.

According to altair.com.pl, NPO Saturn corporation representatives recently announced that the prototype of the second engine is expected to be ready for flight testing in 2015. The new engine, shall be ready for the series production by 2020, with the first prototype being completed by 2016, and flight tests planned to happen in 2017.

At least such statements were made during the Aero India 2015 expo by Vladislav Masalov, who is the chief of the ODK company working on the jet propulsion systems.

In the meanwhile, numerous media outlets report that Russia and India are going to sign a contract, regarding the future development of a 5th Generation Fighter in 2015. According to IHS Jane's, Yuri Slyusar, who is the CEO of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), stated that the parties are at the final stage of negotiations. The preliminary agreement has already been signed. The program is to involve the UAC company on the side of Russia and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited company for India. Slyusar confirmed the fact that the new generation engine testing program is under way.

It is yet unclear, when we may expect the PAK-FA or the Indian fused design to be introduced into service in the front-line units though.

About the Radar, the real proof of any technology is not in simulations but in actual combat, for that matter all the participants in MMRCA who has a proven Radar? Most were prototypes, now they are being produced but can we call them PROVEN?

 

[smestarz]

Rafale can accommodate any weapon su-30 can do.Do some research man.It have to take some modifications before it do.

Let us try Brahomos A, you do some research and then get back to me, I have already done it and know for sure its not possible, So Dassault is also praying for development of Brahmos Mini (Brahmos M) which is much smaller.

Anyway, this image is for the size comparison between Rafale and Su-30 MKI,
http://www.aviatia.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Lrafale-vs-su-30mki.jpg

If you would agree the above image being correct then note the second image of Su-30 MKI with Brahmos A
https://globalaviationreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/sss30.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2f/Brahmos_under_Su30MKI_maquette_MAKS2009.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-k7lWlPOxvQc/VOL-TS6X2OI/AAAAAAAAYJc/IXFpDI9cnHE/s1600/image3+(1).JPG
http://k43.kn3.net/5E9555649.jpg

The nose of the missile almost is ahead of the intakes, now you can try and interpolate that on image of Rafale and you might notice that Rafale could not do it, and it would not have the clearance when taking off.

I did my research, your turn now.

More clear and closer picture of missile with respect to intakes
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qB3h1ioOh...e-KKP_I/s1600/Brahmos+dummy+on+Su+30MKI+1.jpg

 

[sgarg]

The Indian equipment IS GOING TO INCREASE in all IAF planes, as avionics development in India gathers pace. Su-30 does carry Indian components.

The biggest problem with MMRCA is that India's economy projections made in 2001-2004 time-frame have not materialized.

The allocations for IAF is not sufficient for maintaining two white elephants (Su-30 and Rafale). One projection for Su-30 is that one billion dollars is needed annually for upkeep of the fleet. The maintenance/upgrade needs will keep on going up and will be proportional to the original cost of the fleet.

IAF needs A LOT OF SMALLER, ONE-ENGINE, CHEAPER fighters. Nothing has changed in the Indian sub-continent. The basic premises which were true 30 years back still hold.

We stand at a situation where army has been ignored for funds for very long. Army has the largest responsibility for security of this country. Nobody asks the question - what about artillery and air-defence systems badly needed by the army.

IAF unfortunately has taken a very loud approach to push its "needs". It is like a wayward brat who wants everything now.

 

[smestarz]

I think you should be our iaf chief.
It will be horrifying for the country if you do.

Thank you for your support. there are few things that I tell you though,
IT is not necessary for a good fighter pilot to be a good tactician, a tactician needs to be a visionary (and as you said I do have the quality thank you for your support again) and have the attribute of having the vision to foresee how the future combats situation evolve and being prepared for it. Flying a plane and developing tactics are two related but mutually exclusive things. And there are few who have both the qualities. Max Immelmen, Von Richtofen, Boelcke were among the few who had it all. Also you can that during their time the art of air fighting was new and hence they developed the tactics with vision of future.

IF one has best weapon in the world, they do not equip an army with just with it, they have to have support weapons also and logistics. Because tank is the best infantry weapon, you do not transport soldiers from A to B on tanks, or send supply on tanks. do we? The role of different vehicle is different and has to be respected accordingly.

It is funny when the IAF chief NAK Browne said that if required then the Base repair depot (BRD) of IAF can build Rafale (with Transfer of Tech) would you agree with him? The BRD does not agree. So yes, I am surely more visionary than our ex IAF chief and yes, he is biggest crook.

Do you watch footall? Few of the best coaches were not even top football players. Mourinho never played football, he was an interpreter for sir Bobby Robson at Barcelona, Alex Ferguson was not the world class player. Lous Van Gaal was not a world class player, but he can boast of winning Dutch league thrice with Ajax with all home players. Also same with Barcelona, and he gave Barcelona a vision that one day Basrcelona will play with Graduates from La Masia (barcelona football academy) and many people laughed at him because Barcelona like REAL was buying top players. but most players of Barcelona now are from La Masia and his words came true when once Dani Alves was replaced by Montoya at right back and all the 11 Barcelona players on pitch were from La Masia.

Few among these have done it all, Franz Beckenbauer, Johan Cryuff, they have been leaders and visionaries, where as the worlds best player once Maradona, turned out to be flop as a coach and took to Drugs. Hope this example is enough for you.

The one thing of being visionary is to see what assets you have and how best you can use them, and importantly to select the right battles to fight and then to give a fatal stroke.

 

[smestarz]

You go any way the rafale will have 2 more hardpoints in it.Take the truth.

If you are going to go with 2 more hardpoints yes, its true, but if you are going to stick to 14 hardpoints, its possible for Su-30 MKI to make 14 with MERs, Also selecting right weapons and developing them. Brimstone is a good weapon and can be used for A2G and A2S also, why does India not develop a version of its NAG missile to be somewhat like Brimstone with good range and capability.

 

[jaciunite2]

I would not call us lazy, we were indecisive and when we took decisions in the past it was based on lining our pockets.
Lets go with some facts which you might agree.
MiG-21 were flying well till the collapse of USSR and then our Govt and IAF staff did end up buying cheap spares (and pocketing hefty commission) and these cheap spares were useless and that made the plane the flying coffin. Many countries still use MiG-21 and it is well respected. Try Eastern European countries. And because the MiG started to fall out of the sky hence the urgent need for replacements. But it was all due to faulty and cheap spares purchased.

Also one thing you would not know, we were developing a plane way back in mid 70s called HF-73 and it was dumped because then Russia offered upgraded MiG-21 that also had ground attack capability, and due to lack of foresight of our leaders and of course making the IAF happy, we prefered the IMPORTS and not develop our domestic plane. What we ended up doing is we lost the need or intent to produce planes and we were happy being importers.

IAF never had the intention to buy Tejas in the first place. IAF top brass is highly incompetent and does not know much about latest technology being worked on, hence the requirement of tejas came up based on few plane brochures, and then when they read another issue, they wanted different upgrades. When you design a plane, you need specs that are frozen, but if the user comes with changing specs, then the manufacturer has to spend more time to incorporate them or to give up and this is what IAF wanted, a delay means they get to order an imported ITEM (they wanted Mirage 2000) and if HAL gives up then they get to order more.

In my view it is a position in history that India stands, do we do the same mistake we did 40 year ago? If we do, Tejas nos will be limited, the total cost of Tejas program will be expensive to justify and our own development programs will be shelved. One thing you should realize that when a country is close making good products, other powerful countries try to offer them products to ensure the market remains. I think we have achieved that status with Tejas. India fears China, and Chinese have been producing their own J-10 in big numbers. the backbone of PLAAF is not Su-30 MKK please note. The idea behind having big nos of single engine planes is, they are cheaper to produce,fly and maintain. The time taken to maintain them is less because of single engine. The operation cost is less. For example if you fly Rafale and Tejas, the cost of flying Tejas will be less than half maybe 1/3. Thus it becomes more economical to buy, fly and maintain. IF India does buy Rafale then the Air force budget will have to be increased further for adding the cost of flying (Fuel does not come free) thus if the budget is not increased then either we have to fly less sorties, which is not beneficial at all.

I once again stress that IAF top brass is incompetent and not in sync with the ground realities,. I would not be surprised if the pilots are not in sync with the Chief of air staff. IAF lacks the vision to see the future battles and to procure as per their vision of future battles.

China already is getting its 5th Gen plane, what chances do Rafale stand against them? Cannon fodder?
For threat from Pakistan, we are prepared with the fleet of Su-30 MKI and Tejas to support them, but for Chinese threat, nothing that we have can win against them in terms of Tech (5th Gen) or numbers.

Yes single engine planes cost less but they are also risky,less powerful meaning less speed,And a single engine planes engine must be solid.you say they develop hal tejas in india but they waste their important time to make a engine but they failed and now we are buying western engine for tejas.They even can not make a suitable avionics for the aircraft. They have to import many critical components from foreign countries. So why to develope a plane for what you have to import every critical components from western countries?
Oh you are not the only one who knows that hal has developed hal marut.

 

[jaciunite2]

This is 2008 article Flight global is considered reliable, the link as follows
VIDEO: US Red Flag pilot candidly assesses Su-30MKI's limits, Rafale's dirty tricks - 11/6/2008 - Flight Global

And I point the part for reference

However, French Air Force pilots, who deployed to the same event with the Dassault Rafale fighter, apparently engaged in non-friendly activities."They never really came to any merges," the pilot explains.

"What they were really doing was, they had all their sensors on sniffing and seeing how our radars worked. And that's really all they were doing out here. They came out here and they watched the whole flight, with their newest airplane and their newest electronic receiving units, and sucked up all the 'trons in the air."

This is from Aviation week but the link is not active anymore
http://aviationweek.com/aw/generic/...lot Critiques Red Flag Action&channel=defense

USAF Pilot Critiques Red Flag Action

Nov 5, 2008

David A. Fulghum and Graham Warwick

Indian pilots flying Su-30MKIs are extremely professional, but they're still learning how to best fight with their new aircraft.

That opinion comes from an unidentified, senior F-15 pilot taped while briefing senior retired U.S. Air Force officers about the most recent Red Flag exercise. The video was made available online at YouTube.com.

The French pilots flying the new Dassault Rafale appeared to be there to collect electronic intelligence on the Indian aircraft, contends the USAF pilot, who wears an Air Force Weapons School graduate patch.

The French were originally going to bring the older Mirage 2000-5 until they discovered the Indians were bringing their new Su-30MKIs, the pilot says. They then switched and brought their Rafales with more sophisticated electronic surveillance equipment.

Once at Red Flag, "90 percent of the time they followed the Indians so when they took a shot or got shot" they would take a quick shot of their own and then leave," he said. "They never came to any merges," which starts the dogfighting portion of any air-to-air combat. He asserts that French pilots followed the same procedure during Desert Storm and Peace Keeping exercises. When U.S. aircrews were flying operations, the French would fly local sorties while "sucking up all the trons" to see how U.S. electronics, like radars, worked, according to the pilot.


He praised the Indians as extremely professional and said they had no training rule violations. However, they "killed a lot of friendlies" because they were tied to a Russian-made data link system that didn't allow them to see the picture of the battlefield available to everyone else. The lack of combat identification of the other aircraft caused confusion.

But the U.S. apparently isn't ignorant of the Su-30MKI's radar either.

The Su-30 electronically scanned radar is not as accurate as the U.S.-built active electronically scanned radar carried by the F-22 and some F-15s. Also, "it paints less, sees less" and is not as discriminating.

He praised the F-22 as the next great dogfighter. But he faulted the fact that it carries too few missiles and contends that the on-board cannon could be a life-saver, particularly against aircraft like the MiG-21 Bison flown by the Indians. It has a small radar cross section, as well as an Israeli-made F-16 radar and jammer. The latter makes them "almost invisible to legacy F-15C and F-16 radars" until the aerial merge or until it fires one of its Archer, active radar missiles, the U.S. pilot says.

Against the much larger RCS Su-30MKI, the F-16s and F-15s won consistently during the first three days of air-to-air combat, he continues. However, that was the result of trying to immediately go into a post-stall, thrust-vectored turn when attacked. The turn then creates massive drag and the aircraft starts sinking and losing altitude. "It starts dropping so fast you don't have to go vertical [first]. The low-speed tail slide allowed the U.S. aircraft to dive from above and "get one chance to come down to shoot," the pilot says. "You go to guns and drill his brains out." The Su-30 is jamming your missiles so...you go to guns and drill his brains out."

U.S. pilots conclude that the Su-30MKI is "not [an F-22] Raptor," he further says. "That was good for us to find out." But when the Indian pilots really learn to fight their new aircraft - "they were too anxious to go to the post-stall maneuver," he says-- the USAF pilot predicts that they would regularly defeat the F-16C Block 50 and the F-15C with conventional radar.

A final weakness in the Su-30MKI was its engine's vulnerability to foreign object damage which required them to space takeoffs a minute apart and slowed mission launches.

NO WONDER THE FRENCH ARE CONFIDENT OF RAFALE, whenever they go to a friendly exercise all they try is to electronic sniffing and develop the Database for SPECTRA.

Now at red flag the su-30mki is not using their bars radar to hide its capability to others.They did not use their data-link also for secrecy.And for this cause they had a very high friendly kill rate.So if they are not using any of its radar or data-link how could rafale steal their information. They are stealing the f-15s technologies not the su-30mki's.

 

[jaciunite2]

You might not have heard that Russians have already come up with a NEW ENGINE FOR PAKFA. They were using AL-41F which is being used for Su-35 and that was not to be the powerplant for PAKFA, the new engine is already being developed
http://theaviationist.com/2015/02/26/pak-fa-new-engine-study/

The Russians have started the test and design works, aim of which is to provide the Russian 5th Generation fighter with a relevant power-plant.

If there is one field in which the Russians seem to fall behind in aircraft development – it is definitely the propulsion systems for the new jets.

Currently, prototypes of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii—Future Tactical Air System) which is the Russian 5th Generation fighter design, use the Saturn AL-41F1 engines, which are a series production model used by the Russian 4.5 generation fighters, such as Sukhoi Su-35.

We must remember that childhood of T-50 PAK-FA has been quite troublesome and engines have already been cause of some quite embarrassing incidents in the near past.

The current engine should not be mistaken with the NPO Saturn AL-41F engine, which has been designed for the Multi-Role Frontline Fighter, also known as MiG-1.44. The engine used by the PAK-FA prototypes is actually an updated variant of the AL-31F power-plant.

According to altair.com.pl, NPO Saturn corporation representatives recently announced that the prototype of the second engine is expected to be ready for flight testing in 2015. The new engine, shall be ready for the series production by 2020, with the first prototype being completed by 2016, and flight tests planned to happen in 2017.

At least such statements were made during the Aero India 2015 expo by Vladislav Masalov, who is the chief of the ODK company working on the jet propulsion systems.

In the meanwhile, numerous media outlets report that Russia and India are going to sign a contract, regarding the future development of a 5th Generation Fighter in 2015. According to IHS Jane's, Yuri Slyusar, who is the CEO of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), stated that the parties are at the final stage of negotiations. The preliminary agreement has already been signed. The program is to involve the UAC company on the side of Russia and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited company for India. Slyusar confirmed the fact that the new generation engine testing program is under way.

It is yet unclear, when we may expect the PAK-FA or the Indian fused design to be introduced into service in the front-line units though.

About the Radar, the real proof of any technology is not in simulations but in actual combat, for that matter all the participants in MMRCA who has a proven Radar? Most were prototypes, now they are being produced but can we call them PROVEN?

And this is my point also the hal/sukhoi-FGFA Will not be in service before 2030.And now talk about statements by russians.They always make statements but all their projects gets delayed for one reason or other.They also have reputation for cost overrun.They send used spares like tyres and many thing instead of new ones.If it was any other country i can somehow belive in their statements but russia is not going to make any defence equipment in their stated time.Its their reputation man.

 

[sgarg]

And this is my point also the hal/sukhoi-FGFA Will not be in service before 2030.And now talk about statements by russians.They always make statements but all their projects gets delayed for one reason or other.They also have reputation for cost overrun.They send used spares like tyres and many thing instead of new ones.If it was any other country i can somehow belive in their statements but russia is not going to make any defence equipment in their stated time.Its their reputation man.

Whatever you just said is true of every Western fighter too.
The issue is far more complicated than just technology. Even we accept that Rafale is better (technically) compared to Su-30, it does not become a procurement candidate. Why? Because it has to fit into IAF's budget and operational profile.

The Rafale is an air-superiority fighter just like Su-30. They come from different countries, different tech base, different cultures. But the purpose is same.

If Su-30 was capped at say 8 squadrons, then I would see a natural slot for Rafale. Now Su-30 is planned at 14 squadrons. IAF cannot maintain more heavy fighters within its budget.

Now nuclear role is assigned to Su-30 (earlier it was Mirage). So Mirage and Mig-29 are completely free for air defence/interdiction roles. Su-30 has freed both Mirage and Mig-29 from several duties. The IAF people I have talked to are confident about the situation on the Western front. The doubts always arise when Chinese come into the picture. The problem with Chinese is that NOBODY is able to estimate or project correctly what is needed. The situation with Chinese is so fluid as China is amassing military power rather quickly.

 

[sgarg]

Efforts are underway to obtain PAK-FA starting from 2018. Efforts are also underway to obtain Super-Sukhoi. Future projects with Russia have large Indian components in avionics if not in engines and structures. So Russian projects make far more sense.

We can build Rafale under license but it will not yield any significant design information to us.

Projects like LCA/Tejas, AMCA, and FGFA build Indian aviation industry. Rafale will remain a screw driver job.

 

[smestarz]

And this is my point also the hal/sukhoi-FGFA Will not be in service before 2030.And now talk about statements by russians.They always make statements but all their projects gets delayed for one reason or other.They also have reputation for cost overrun.They send used spares like tyres and many thing instead of new ones.If it was any other country i can somehow belive in their statements but russia is not going to make any defence equipment in their stated time.Its their reputation man.

There are two ways to do it here, We wait for the HAL/SUKHOI FGFA TO DEVELOP, and the other and more smarter way to buy the PAKFA when its available (Squadron or two) and use them and then come up with ideas of upgrades that we need. We did the same with Su-30 MKI (we started with Su-30 MK and then came with our required upgrades, and also for MiG-29K ) this way we shall have few Squadrons HOPEFULLY before 2020, and then the suggested upgrades made to T-50 MKI . After all we are going to buy some PAKFA outright, and also go for FGFA.
There is a view that FGFA might in a way be T-50 MKI (just our way of calling it FGFA or PMF)

AMCA will be a different concept, personally I prefer Tailless delta or flying wing or a way where the vertical stabiliser is angled like in F-22 (more angled) and that can be blended in the wing during straight flight thus reducing the radar cross section.

 

[smestarz]

Now at red flag the su-30mki is not using their bars radar to hide its capability to others.They did not use their data-link also for secrecy.And for this cause they had a very high friendly kill rate.So if they are not using any of its radar or data-link how could rafale steal their information. They are stealing the f-15s technologies not the su-30mki's.

Are you telling me that they are American specific? You are wrong there my friend read the statement, originally France was to go with Mirage 2000-5, why the sudden change in plans and go with Rafale? It is there in bold for you to see.

Whenever a plane is flying, it will be using some of its avionics, hence if you can get data for any of the avionic emission, that is still beneficial to make database. IAF pilots were adviced to use their BARS radar in training mode and hence Rafale pilots could not get more detailed information but surely they did get some. Are you aware that during paris Air show, the Americans refused to send F-22. with this you know why.
SPECTRA is capable, but also it needs to have database of emissions so that it can be more effective, when you know how your opponents avionics works, you can use contermeasures to counter them, thus the role of Rafale during red flag was to try and get any sort of emissions from Su-30 and use them for their SPECTRA or EW/ECMs suite

 

[smestarz]

Yes single engine planes cost less but they are also risky,less powerful meaning less speed,And a single engine planes engine must be solid.you say they develop hal tejas in india but they waste their important time to make a engine but they failed and now we are buying western engine for tejas.They even can not make a suitable avionics for the aircraft. They have to import many critical components from foreign countries. So why to develope a plane for what you have to import every critical components from western countries?
Oh you are not the only one who knows that hal has developed hal marut.

What you fail to understand is few things. Engine and avionics are the two technology that are most important for aircraft development, and the moment we master them both, we can become super power. China can build planes but they cannot make good engines and so their ability is still limited and Russians are able to push them still. IF there is an issue in future, we can substitute parts and we can development, the airframe etc etc , but we cannot make a capable engine yet. Once we know to make engines, we can offer planes for Exports also. Now even JF-17 which is Chinese plane has Argentina as customer !!! But they are using Russian engine. Thus any sale has to be vetoed by the Russians. So the idea should be to be independent in such a way that we do not depend on others.

We are now starting everything with Scratch, we are buying parts and doing some with foreign help, but sooner the more we learn about cutting edge tech, we start to be more self dependent.

 

[jaciunite2]

Efforts are underway to obtain PAK-FA starting from 2018. Efforts are also underway to obtain Super-Sukhoi. Future projects with Russia have large Indian components in avionics if not in engines and structures. So Russian projects make far more sense.

We can build Rafale under license but it will not yield any significant design information to us.

Projects like LCA/Tejas, AMCA, and FGFA build Indian aviation industry. Rafale will remain a screw driver job.

Russia is not sharing critical components details nor they keep their indian counterpart with them in development flights of the aircraft.
They just keep saying have patient man.

 

[jaciunite2]

There are two ways to do it here, We wait for the HAL/SUKHOI FGFA TO DEVELOP, and the other and more smarter way to buy the PAKFA when its available (Squadron or two) and use them and then come up with ideas of upgrades that we need. We did the same with Su-30 MKI (we started with Su-30 MK and then came with our required upgrades, and also for MiG-29K ) this way we shall have few Squadrons HOPEFULLY before 2020, and then the suggested upgrades made to T-50 MKI . After all we are going to buy some PAKFA outright, and also go for FGFA.
There is a view that FGFA might in a way be T-50 MKI (just our way of calling it FGFA or PMF)

AMCA will be a different concept, personally I prefer Tailless delta or flying wing or a way where the vertical stabiliser is angled like in F-22 (more angled) and that can be blended in the wing during straight flight thus reducing the radar cross section.

I will also be happy if this happens.
I cant understand our defence procurement system when we can buy a least sophisticated but a 5th generation fighter why did they call for tender.If they use the pak-fa at first than they will also know which upgrade they want.At least in this point i agree with you.

 

[jaciunite2]

Are you telling me that they are American specific? You are wrong there my friend read the statement, originally France was to go with Mirage 2000-5, why the sudden change in plans and go with Rafale? It is there in bold for you to see.

Whenever a plane is flying, it will be using some of its avionics, hence if you can get data for any of the avionic emission, that is still beneficial to make database. IAF pilots were adviced to use their BARS radar in training mode and hence Rafale pilots could not get more detailed information but surely they did get some. Are you aware that during paris Air show, the Americans refused to send F-22. with this you know why.
SPECTRA is capable, but also it needs to have database of emissions so that it can be more effective, when you know how your opponents avionics works, you can use contermeasures to counter them, thus the role of Rafale during red flag was to try and get any sort of emissions from Su-30 and use them for their SPECTRA or EW/ECMs suite

No i am saying that they did not get any critical information of su-30mki.Instead they get more from other aircraft. And dont forget many iaf plane avionics is from france or israel so they already do know little about it.

 

[jaciunite2]

What you fail to understand is few things. Engine and avionics are the two technology that are most important for aircraft development, and the moment we master them both, we can become super power. China can build planes but they cannot make good engines and so their ability is still limited and Russians are able to push them still. IF there is an issue in future, we can substitute parts and we can development, the airframe etc etc , but we cannot make a capable engine yet. Once we know to make engines, we can offer planes for Exports also. Now even JF-17 which is Chinese plane has Argentina as customer !!! But they are using Russian engine. Thus any sale has to be vetoed by the Russians. So the idea should be to be independent in such a way that we do not depend on others.

We are now starting everything with Scratch, we are buying parts and doing some with foreign help, but sooner the more we learn about cutting edge tech, we start to be more self dependent.

But to do that we will need major defence firms,And most important a lot of money which the government did not providing. Any western aircraft cost 3 time more in development then ours.The government want the best but do not provide needed things to do that.

 

[sgarg]

I will also be happy if this happens.
I cant understand our defence procurement system when we can buy a least sophisticated but a 5th generation fighter why did they call for tender.If they use the pak-fa at first than they will also know which upgrade they want.At least in this point i agree with you.

This is the question. If all IAF wanted was to buy Rafale, why this song and dance of a tender.

 

[sgarg]

Russia is not sharing critical components details nor they keep their indian counterpart with them in development flights of the aircraft.
They just keep saying have patient man.

It is not necessary at this stage. The same happened in Brahmos also but the program is working well - to the point where local engine is also in development.
Nobody will share critical technology with others easily. However our industry learns far more in joint ventures compared to license manufacture. License manufacture is pure screw-driver tech.